Author Topic: Pretzel Dough  (Read 24799 times)

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Offline Acehigh

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Pretzel Dough
« on: February 08, 2006, 08:52:23 PM »
Anyone ever use pretzel dough in their pizza?  Something similar to auntie anne's pretzels would be perfect if you could find a recipe. 


Offline Hi Gluten

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2006, 08:56:41 PM »
Hi Acehigh,

I was under the impression that the dough for pizza and soft pretzels are the exact same recipe. The difference is that you put the pretzels in simmering water before baking.


Offline Lido

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2006, 02:07:23 PM »
I always heard you dipped pretzels in lye before baking.  Seems weird since it's poison, but maybe it bakes off or something.
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Offline gottabedapan

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2006, 04:45:18 PM »
I always heard you dipped pretzels in lye before baking.  Seems weird since it's poison, but maybe it bakes off or something.

Correction: lye is extremely caustic and can cause serious injury, or even death if swallowed, but it is not poisonous.

Offline robtfink

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2006, 05:13:48 PM »
Remarkably, as disagreeable as it might seem, lye (especially derived from wood ash - potassium hydroxide, I believe) has long been used to process that distinctively new world grain, corn. In the American South, essential to the manufacture of hominy; and south of the border, masa harina.

Offline beckysuea

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2006, 07:34:04 PM »
I thought you dipped the pretzel dough in hot water that had baking soda added for a la really short time, remove and then bake the dough in the oven.

Offline gottabedapan

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2006, 09:57:02 PM »
I thought you dipped the pretzel dough in hot water that had baking soda added for a la really short time, remove and then bake the dough in the oven.

That's generally the recommended procedure for home-made soft pretzels. Commercially made hard pretzels are generally brushed with a weak lye solution, either sodium hydroxide (NaOH) or potassium hydroxide (KOH). BTW, lye is also used in the production of cocoa, chocolate, olives, ice cream (as a thickener), and to rehydrate parched corn.

Offline RockyMarciano

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2006, 10:00:33 PM »
That's generally the recommended procedure for home-made soft pretzels. Commercially made hard pretzels are generally brushed with a weak lye solution, either sodium hydroxide (NaOH) or potassium hydroxide (KOH). BTW, lye is also used in the production of cocoa, chocolate, olives, ice cream (as a thickener), and to rehydrate parched corn.
and for the disposing of bodies

Offline Lydia

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2006, 01:21:58 PM »
Diastatic Malt is also something that is used to process preztels, just as bagels are.

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Offline whochee

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2006, 08:59:25 PM »
I feel obligated...because im cravin some pretzels, to mention this place has awesome pretzels, they have a nice website but I just wish someone could get their dough reciepe and let me kknow what it is.  check it out:
www.guspretzels.com, and if your from st. louis, you know already.  I wish i could make these at home so i could save much gas money.
pizzapizzapizzapizzapizzapizzapizzapizzapizza

Offline elsegundo

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2006, 01:30:04 PM »
Lye - there is a food grade lye which is definitely not drain pipe lye.

If you value your life stay away from lye.

You can live with a lot of pizza making mistakes. Not this one. Poison and pepperoni don't mix. And yes it is poison.


Take care please.

Offline gottabedapan

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2006, 09:06:02 PM »
Lye - there is a food grade lye which is definitely not drain pipe lye.

This is so wrong, it couldn't be farther from the truth. Lye is lye is lye. There is no difference chemically between the lye used for food processing and the lye used for cleaning drains: the difference is SOLELY in the concentration of the lye solution.

Lye used in plumbing is simply a strong concentration of either Sodium Hydroxide or Potassium Hydroxide, either in crystal form or a thick gel. It works because the chemical reaction between the metallic alkali and fat or oil (saponification) converts the esters in oil or fat into soap. Lye used in food processing is simply a weak concentration of either Sodium Hydroxide or Potassium Hydroxide.

Lye is hazardous, but it is NOT poisonous. Lye is a caustic base and, in high concentration, is highly corrosive and must be handled with care.

Offline Harv

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2006, 06:45:50 AM »
When speaking of poisons, remember that it is all about the dose.  For example, many things found in food can kill you if you ingest enough.  A big scoop of table salt, a spoonful of pure caffeine, or any of the hundreds of chemicals found in things like tomatoes, broccoli, etc.  can kill you.  Though we typically reserve the term "poison" for things that require very small doses, it is a spectrum.  Chemicals such as sodium or potassium hydroxide are generally not considered poisons (even if the side of the Draino can says so) and the real danger is the tissue damage as stated previously.  If you have ever had a glass of tap water, you are drinking sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide.   In water sodium and potassium hydroxide break down into there respective ions.  Na+, K+  and -OH,  and these are present in nearly all water.  There is also lead, arsenic, mercury, present in almost all water :-X.  But don't loose any sleep over it because we are perfectly capable of eating all of these things without ill effects.  As the saying goes, all things in moderation except good pizza.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2006, 01:26:09 PM »
This is so wrong, it couldn't be farther from the truth. Lye is lye is lye. There is no difference chemically between the lye used for food processing and the lye used for cleaning drains: the difference is SOLELY in the concentration of the lye solution.

Lye used in plumbing is simply a strong concentration of either Sodium Hydroxide or Potassium Hydroxide, either in crystal form or a thick gel. It works because the chemical reaction between the metallic alkali and fat or oil (saponification) converts the esters in oil or fat into soap. Lye used in food processing is simply a weak concentration of either Sodium Hydroxide or Potassium Hydroxide.

Lye is hazardous, but it is NOT poisonous. Lye is a caustic base and, in high concentration, is highly corrosive and must be handled with care.

There are two forms, Soda lye (sodium hydroxide) and potash lye (potassium hydroxide) You are correct, chemically they are all the same, but I am sure for food preparation there is a strict guidline for purity in what can and cannot be used. There are many different purities of Lye.

In terms of classification as a Hazardous chemical or a poison, it depends on the definition you are going by. According to www.M-W.com a poison is defined as:

Main Entry: 1poi·son
Pronunciation: 'poi-z&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French poisun drink, potion, poison, from Latin potion-, potio drink -- more at POTION
1 a : a substance that through its chemical action usually kills, injures, or impairs an organism b (1) : something destructive or harmful (2) : an object of aversion or abhorrence
2 : a substance that inhibits the activity of another substance or the course of a reaction or process <a catalyst poison>

Lye solutions can be used to dissolve tissues and kill organisms. I would say that chemical action warrants it's definition as a poision, however I don't think this involves the breakage of covalent bonds. The term "poison" is usually used to refer to direct reactivity that involves covalent bond reactivity or things in nature, such as snake venom.

In terms of using Lye in food preparations, I found this at the oracle: (www.wikipedia.org)

"Food uses of lye include washing or chemical peeling of fruits and vegetables, chocolate and cocoa processing, caramel color production, poultry scalding, soft drink processing, and thickening ice cream. Olives are often soaked in lye to soften them, while pretzels and German lye rolls are glazed with a lye solution before baking to make them crisp.

Specific foods processed with lye include:

The Scandinavian delicacy known as lutefisk (from lutfisk, "lye fish").
Hominy is dried maize (corn) kernels reconstituted by soaking in lye-water. These expand considerably in size and may be further processed by cooking in hot oil and salting to form corn nuts. Nixtamal is similar, but uses calcium hydroxide instead of sodium hydroxide.
Hominy is also known in some areas of the Southeastern United States, as the breakfast food grits, dried and ground into a coarse powder. They are prepared by boiling in water,with the addition of butter and other ingredient to suit the tastes of the preparer.
Sodium hydroxide is also the chemical that causes gelling of egg whites in the production of Century eggs.
German pretzels are poached in a boiling sodium hydroxide solution before baking, which contributes to their unique crust."

As Harv pointed out, it's all about the dose. I would also like to add that purity is also a factor.

And I think good pizza can also be hazardous. It's called CORONARY HEART ATTACK!

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2006, 12:50:11 PM »
Okay now this has peaked my interest. Does anyone know where to get "food grade lye" online that will deliver to a residential address?

I have found a few places that sell it, but they want a business address in their liability disclaimer. I am referring to sodium hydroxide, FCC. NOT Potassium Hydroxide.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2006, 09:50:11 PM »
I can't believe my German co-worker talked me into this. I am making pretzels right now. We found some commercial Bavarian Pretzel mix online. We also found an outfit willing to ship us Sodium Hydroxide (Natrium Hydroxid) as the label reads in German! I will post pics later when they are finished. So far so good, just waiting for the dough to retard.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2006, 01:27:31 AM »
All I can say is WOW!! I have never purchased a commercial product, just add water and had such a perfect product. If you like soft pretzels, this is the real deal. It doesn't get any better than this folks. I am convinced now that for the real taste, you need sodium hydroxide. Baking soda just doesn't cut it. Here are some shots of normal ones, then oversized ones (2X the dough).


Offline deb415611

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2006, 06:23:43 AM »
I can't believe my German co-worker talked me into this. I am making pretzels right now. We found some commercial Bavarian Pretzel mix online. We also found an outfit willing to ship us Sodium Hydroxide (Natrium Hydroxid) as the label reads in German! I will post pics later when they are finished. So far so good, just waiting for the dough to retard.

Wow,  those look awesome.

Where did you get the Sodium Hydroxide?
Thanks,
Deb
Deb

Offline Harv

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2006, 11:11:28 AM »
http://www.saratogascents.com/sodium_hydroxide_lye.html

2lbs. is a lot of NaOH.  They may sell you a smaller quantity if you ask.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2006, 12:14:25 PM »
2 lbs? Hell the place I bough my German labeled sodium hydroxide was 9kg ! I split it with my German friend. I was leary about using Red Devil Lye (Drain cleaner) or sodium hydroxide from the lab. Although it may be more or less pure, it's seems sketchy to me to use something not labeled "food grade". Thanks for the link, but I don't think I will be needing some anytime soon! For those of you looking for a safe sodium hydroxide to cook with, the acronym "FCC" refers to "Food Chemical Codex" which is a standard in the chemical industry for using those products in food. If it's labeled FCC grade, it's okay to use it in cooking. (With the proper safety measures of course.) More info can be found at this link: http://www.mortonsalt.com/faq/faq_indu.asp?id=59

I will PM you the link to where I got my goods.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2006, 12:16:01 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2006, 12:33:13 PM »
I just wanted to add a cautionary note to those of you making your own lye solutions using crystal (Dry) sodium hydroxide. The rule of thumb is always mix acids and bases SLOWLY a little at a time. In this case you would *sprinkle* just a few crystals into some water and stir it in until it dissolves. Continue this slowly until all the NaOH is dissolved. The process of dissolving a solid base in an acid (water) is a chemical reaction. It will generate HEAT and VAPORS. Depending how concentrated it is, it can also dissolve spatulas, etc. I would suggest mixing it in a glass bowl and only use high quality stainless steel utensils. Also, be VERY careful not to inhale the vapors or the dry crystals. This stuff can really scar/burn your lungs, make you blind (if it gets in your eyes) and burn your skin. Read all the precautionary literature that comes with the stuff. Last but not least, if you have children BE THE PARENT. Don't store this stuff where children can get into it. I personally do not keep mine in the kitchen, because I fear someone mistaking it for salt or sugar and "tasting" it to see. Be Safe with this stuff, it's a serious matter!

Offline John39840

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2006, 03:48:02 PM »
I too believe there's a huge difference between food grade lye and grocery store lye; or at least, I wouldn't want to unexpectedly come to realize the difference. :) Something used as a lab solution isn't going to be tested as carefully for harmful impurities or contaminants. And while lye itself isn't poisonous, per se, it can be dangerous, and possibly contain other harmful or deadly things. So I personally would only ever buy something labeled as food grade for the kitchen.

Although, I've been using lye to brown my bagels for a few years. Baking soda just never made as much a significant a difference in the taste and appearance of my bagels. I started using lye, and suddenly my bagels took on the appearance of a typical NYC water bagel. Another secret of bagel dough is the use of barley malt powder, for taste, coloring, and browning abilities. I'd also imagine a pretzel dough might also contain barley malt powder/syrup, and some egg in its ingredients.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2006, 05:50:50 PM by John39840 »

Offline John39840

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2006, 03:50:59 PM »
All I can say is WOW!! I have never purchased a commercial product, just add water and had such a perfect product. If you like soft pretzels, this is the real deal. It doesn't get any better than this folks. I am convinced now that for the real taste, you need sodium hydroxide. Baking soda just doesn't cut it. Here are some shots of normal ones, then oversized ones (2X the dough).

Wow! These look awesome!  :chef: You've convinced me to give pretzels a try. I already have bagel salt. The bagel shop in my area is always kind enough to sell me a few pounds.

Offline PizzaPolice

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2006, 04:20:56 PM »
MMmmm!  Them pretzels look tasty!
***scratch***scratch***scribble...scribble***   Great!  One more thing I have learn to do.
DNA DAN. Can you give details about the solution strength and overall process?
Thanks.

Offline PizzaBrewer

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Re: Pretzel Dough
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2006, 07:36:16 PM »
In case y'all are interested, what the lye does is break down the starch on the surface of the dough into sugars.  Just like the enzymes during the dough retard process, only chemically and at a much faster rate than enzymes can do.  During baking the sugars on the surface of the dough combine with amino acids to create the brown color.

And also, laboratory grade is actually more pure and refined than food grade.  Lab grade chemicals are also typically much more expensive than food grade.

Those pretzels look great!

---Guy
Man does not live by bread alone.  There's also tomato, cheese and pepperoni.


 

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