Author Topic: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins  (Read 2779 times)

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Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« on: June 28, 2013, 02:29:22 AM »
Hi guys,

Haven't posted for ages but have been reading vigorously during the past week. I finally got around to unclipping the locks off my oven. Below is the first pie that worked out.

The dough formation is 100% caputo pizzeria, 63% hydration, 2.75% salt, 1/4 tsp. active dry yeast, 260 grams dough ball, hand mixed with three seven minute rest periods. I did minimal kneading; I just let the rest periods do all the work. The dough was balled, put in oiled containers, and left on the counter for two hours before being put in the fridge. The next day, I let it rise on the counter for about 4 hours until it increased in size by about 70%.

The pie was stretched to about 70% target radius, dressed on a board, then pulled to an aluminium peel. On the peel it was quickly stretched to target size.

Sauce is Strianese tomatoes food milled then strained. Cheese is Di Stefano fior di latte from Wholefoods.

Oven is Kitchen Aid on the cleaning cycle with the stone on the second highest rack. Stone read 420-450c. Bake time was 2min.

The pie was slightly burned on the bottom--moderate patch burns rather than small holes. The top was light to moderately browned.

Taste was good but a little flat, similar to Howie's pizzeria in Palo Alto. Texture is pretty light even though I didn't achieve a puffy cornicione. Less salt next time.

Overall quite enjoyable. For future pies, I'd like to get more oven spring, more blistering on top and finer blisters on the bottom (avoid patch burn).

Suggestions and comments very welcome!

Cheers,
-James

PS. I had a second pie lined up but it stuck to the peel and turned into a franken-calzone.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 03:59:26 AM by JF_Aidan_Pryde »


Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2013, 02:36:24 AM »
Here's a pic of the second pie when it was stretched out. I found it wasn't as smooth as the first and showed "ribbed" patterns. When this happens it looks wet on the surface and forebodes disaster. And sure enough disaster struck. Despite being dragged to the peel, it stuck in mere seconds (the time it took to put on mitts and open the oven door). After multiple failed resuscitations, it was folded into a floppy, leaky calzone.

Offline sub

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2013, 07:36:53 AM »
Hi James,

For the next time try to put the stone on the highest rack (2 - 3 inch from the glowing red heating element) with a short bake time the toppings won't burn.

Make your dough like Craig: How I make my NP dough

Or if you want to uses cold ferment, after the stretch and folds put the bulk dough 24 hours in the fridge, next day make the balls and put them again in the fridge for 48 hours, the third day let them rise on the counter for about 4 hours.

Cheers

scott123

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2013, 02:20:49 PM »
If you're dead set on going with a cleaning cycle* I would definitely follow sub's advice and move the stone to the highest shelf.

Your stone is probably cordierite, right? I would also seek out a less conductive material for your stone.  This can get a bit tricky, as less conductive materials can be hard to find and fragile, but I would keep your eye out for a relatively light quarry tile, and, in the meantime, buy a fibrament stone. If you're working with cordierite now, fibrament should buy you slower bottom browning at higher temps- and, if you can find the right quarry tile, that will buy you even slower browning.

Firebrick would be better than cordierite also, but, at 1.125" thick, it will take a minimum of 2 hours to pre-heat. You can also, and I rarely say this, look at the especially thin/cheap stones at Walmart/Target.  Those tend to be cement (low conductivity). It can be hard to tell, but generally cement stones are grayish white, while cordierite has a warmer yellow-ish tint.

Does your broiler go on during the cleaning cycle?

*Disclaimer: I do not recommend cleaning cycle hacks as they can be hard on ovens and cause them to break down prematurely- and I especially recommend caution on an expensive oven such as a KitchenAid.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 07:44:15 PM by scott123 »

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2013, 07:23:35 PM »
Make sure your homeowners insurance is paid up!!
Save A Cow, Eat A Vegan....Totally Organic And Hormone Free!!

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2013, 08:49:00 PM »
Make sure your homeowners insurance is paid up!!
Wouldn't it be wiser to start saving away the ins. premium money to go towards the repair of the fire damage? Cause that ins. inspector is gonna have Zero love when he see's that hack....and don't think for a hot minute that won't be the first thing he looks for.  >:D

Seriously, I would purchase a spare latch arm and be prepared to install it and doctor it up to match the burned up oven the day after the fire.

Do firemen ever immediately confiscate/quarantine an oven in a fire situation such as this?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2013, 03:35:06 AM »
If you're dead set on going with a cleaning cycle* I would definitely follow sub's advice and move the stone to the highest shelf.

Your stone is probably cordierite, right? I would also seek out a less conductive material for your stone.  This can get a bit tricky, as less conductive materials can be hard to find and fragile, but I would keep your eye out for a relatively light quarry tile, and, in the meantime, buy a fibrament stone. If you're working with cordierite now, fibrament should buy you slower bottom browning at higher temps- and, if you can find the right quarry tile, that will buy you even slower browning.

Firebrick would be better than cordierite also, but, at 1.125" thick, it will take a minimum of 2 hours to pre-heat. You can also, and I rarely say this, look at the especially thin/cheap stones at Walmart/Target.  Those tend to be cement (low conductivity). It can be hard to tell, but generally cement stones are grayish white, while cordierite has a warmer yellow-ish tint.

Does your broiler go on during the cleaning cycle?

*Disclaimer: I do not recommend cleaning cycle hacks as they can be hard on ovens and cause them to break down prematurely- and I especially recommend caution on an expensive oven such as a KitchenAid.

Hi Scott,

I use the Old Stone I bought from Amazon. The info there says it's firestone.

http://www.amazon.com/Old-Stone-Oven-4467-14-Inch/dp/B0000E1FDA/?tag=pizzamaking-20

My broiler has two coils, and inner and an outer. During the cleaning cycle, it cycle between the two coils. So one is always on at a given time. Cycle time is about a minute or so.

Can you tell me more about cleaning cycle causing premature breakdown (I seem to recall  you used an old oven on the cleaning cycle ages ago)? How safe is the cleaning cycle hack in general? What is the worst that has happened to folks who've tried it? What are some safety  precautions I can take?

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 03:44:27 AM »
Latest pies from the weekend.

My friend came over with Ischia + IDY dough at 65% hydration.

We also baked two pies using standard ADY 48 hour dough.

The Ischia pie was vastly superior. It had the most awesome blisters.

I moved the stone to the top rack as advised. I found the stone still gets far too hot too quickly vs. dome temp. At 800 stone temp, the pie's bottom is burned hard in a minute. What I do is stick an aluminium baking tray in between bakes. This prevents the stone from supercharging. In the end I found that at around 670 stone temp, the pie cooks perfect in about 90 to 120 seconds. This is a bit odd to me since most of what I read indicates much higher temps would be needed to cook at the sub two minute range.

Pies below are:
1. Margherita (ADY)
2. Mortadella with pistachio oil (Ischia)
3. Cherry tomatoes, cheese, rocket (Ischia)
4. Sausage, jalapeno, mushroom, basil (ADY)
5. Blistering on Ischia dough. Really loved this. The ADY dough had no blisters, just flat patches.

New batch of dough is now fermenting at 58f. It's mostly Craig's procedure save the bulk ferment (ran out of time). Will bake them tomorrow night.

Any insight on how to get more top/side blistering? I know I'm loosing a lot of heat when I open the door. Also, the broiler is only 50% in the cleaning cycle so it doesn't quite get hot enough.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 04:40:41 AM by JF_Aidan_Pryde »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 04:25:56 PM »
James,

It's good to see you back posting on the forum. When did you move back from Australia?

Your pizzas look tantalizing.

Peter

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2013, 05:27:17 PM »
Your pizzas look excellent. I did some experimenting with the clean cycle a couple of years ago to so-so results. Yours are better. I think some of my problems were definitely because of my lack of other skills though, not just the oven. I never had any negative affects from using the clean cycle, but I probably only did 7-8 times. Hopefully you don't. If you want to prevent any risking of replacing a very expensive, you could check out a blackstone.


scott123

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2013, 01:35:03 AM »
I use the Old Stone I bought from Amazon. The info there says it's firestone.

http://www.amazon.com/Old-Stone-Oven-4467-14-Inch/dp/B0000E1FDA/?tag=pizzamaking-20

My broiler has two coils, and inner and an outer. During the cleaning cycle, it cycle between the two coils. So one is always on at a given time. Cycle time is about a minute or so.

Can you tell me more about cleaning cycle causing premature breakdown (I seem to recall  you used an old oven on the cleaning cycle ages ago)? How safe is the cleaning cycle hack in general? What is the worst that has happened to folks who've tried it? What are some safety  precautions I can take?

James, I've never used the cleaning cycle on my oven, but my cleaning cycle light does kick on after a long pre-heat and bake at 550 (about 575 actual temp).  I've never heard of anyone's house burning down with a hacked oven.  I have heard of exterior elements getting so hot that they melt, but, more frequently, I've heard about wiring melting and shorting out.  Oven wiring is only rated to go to a certain number of degrees (the number escapes me, but I'm certain it's below 250).  All ovens tuck this wire behind insulation, but the insulation can only protect the wiring so much. From the number of people I know whose ovens have failed during cleaning cycles (regular cycles, and not pizza baking hacks), I'm certain that cleaning cycles are hard on ovens.  Ovens are generally made to withstand normal baking temps without any problem, but, cleaning cycle temps push that envelope. Cleaning cycle temps once a week for pizza push that envelope even further.

When it comes to damaging the oven, I feel pretty strongly that the higher you go, the greater the risk, that's why I generally only recommend 50 to 100 degree bumps over the ovens peak baking temp.

If you want to take the oven apart and see where the wiring is situated and, if there's room, add more insulation, then perhaps you can use the cleaning cycle with greater abandon.  Otherwise, if you have an oven that isn't disposable, I wouldn't push it past 650.

The Old Stone stone is cordierite.  Cordierite is considerably more conductive than firebrick- hence the burning at 800. From the photos, it appears that you're not only shooting for Neapolitan, but that you have the broiler that can achieve this end.

For Neapolitan, it's really a broiler game and how much infrared you can kick out. As you found out, you don't really need an incendiary hearth, and, depending on the hearth material, you can even go with lower/less potentially oven damaging temps for the hearth pre-heat.

I'm curious when you broil outside of the cleaning cycle, do both broiler elements kick on?  Is there any way of getting both elements to kick on during the cleaning cycle?  Could you take a photo of your broiler? What is the vertical space between the hearth and the broiler presently?

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2013, 04:39:58 AM »
Hey Scott,

Some photos of my oven below. In regular broil mode or convection broil, both broilers are at max. I can't think of a way to get it to do that during cleaning mode. If I turn the cycle off, it won't let me broil until the temps drop to sub 500.

I looked again tonight during cleaning cycle and it's more like one element is always at 100% while the other is at 50%.

Currently I find that I can get good NP temps for the stone. The issue is with top heat. When everything is perfect, I can get good solid browning (like the mortadella/pistachio pie), but I can't get blisters on the top or sides.

When launch a pizza I open the door, pull out the rack holding the stone, then slide the pizza on using a super peel (too many pizzas were lost from conventional peels). I am going to guess that the 15 second step I take causes a huge amount of heat to escape. But I can't think of a better way to get more top heat.

An idea I'm toying with is going for a higher stone temp / overall temp but baking the pizza on a pizza mesh on the stone (Pete inspired). The mesh should create a little buffer to reduce bottom browning and the quicker launch hopefully will increase ambient temp.

Thanks for the advice on oven safety/insulation. I've already had to replace the burner coils once on this KA set. The electrician told me the unit isn't very reliable. I am not handy enough to take apart the unit. But I'll try not to abuse the oven too much.

-James


Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2013, 05:00:16 AM »
James,

It's good to see you back posting on the forum. When did you move back from Australia?

Your pizzas look tantalizing.

Peter

Hi Peter!
It's amazing to see you here after all these years! I have fond memories of you saving me from all my "emergency dough malfunctions" lol.

I didn't move back to the US--I moved to the US. :) This will be my seventh year in the Bay Area. It's pretty awesome finally being able to get all the ingredients that I keep reading about (Strianese, Grande mozz, Caputo flour).

Let me know if you ever head out here. We have to go pizza touring :)

-James

Offline sub

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2013, 05:12:44 AM »

Any insight on how to get more top/side blistering? I know I'm loosing a lot of heat when I open the door. Also, the broiler is only 50% in the cleaning cycle so it doesn't quite get hot enough.

When launch a pizza I open the door, pull out the rack holding the stone, then slide the pizza on using a super peel (too many pizzas were lost from conventional peels). I am going to guess that the 15 second step I take causes a huge amount of heat to escape. But I can't think of a better way to get more top heat.

Hi James,

For the blistering you need glowing red heating element always ON and HOT air inside the oven.

So uses a shovel to quickly put the pie in without pulling out the top rack, try to put semolina on your peel.


Here a video of an Italian forumer with great results on a conventional oven.



He's done a thermostat bypass on the oven, and uses 4 refractory stones on the rack.

Offline BenLee

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2013, 02:50:51 PM »
In my old apartment, I used to go with the cleaning cycle.  I used to line the bottom of the quarry stones with a few layers of foil because the stone would get too hot from the heat coming up from the bottom.  After a while, the stones would hit about 730 and I would get a nice bake.  It was able to go higher but I never decided to push the envelope.  The foil basically allowed me to put the stones on any rack I wanted to and I did keep them on the bottom rack for this reason.   

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2013, 06:28:14 PM »
Latest effort below. Burning is pretty much under control. Top browning is a bit better now that I don't peek as often. I'm back to the regular peel. Super peel is nice but I feel like it lets you off the hook for less than perfect dough formation and shaping. I want to get the fundamentals right. I handled the first few pizzas too rough and the temp was low so it ended up pretty flat. The last one worked out better.

I've posted a video of my pizza making process. Critiques and suggestions very welcome.

From the pizza diary (excuse the odd Italian):

Dough Formulation:
impasto   1,073
farina      642
acqua   404 (63%)
sale      14 (2.2%)
ischia    13 (2%)

Cronologia:
5min with 75% of flour
25min rest
10min knead on board
5min rest
7 Envelope folds
Ball
10am start fermentation @ 78f (day went up to 81f)
11pm bake

---


« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 06:30:18 PM by JF_Aidan_Pryde »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2013, 07:31:50 AM »
James,

Very nice. Very nice indeed.

Peter

Offline Oceans05

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2013, 02:04:52 PM »
Hi Peter!
It's amazing to see you here after all these years! I have fond memories of you saving me from all my "emergency dough malfunctions" lol.

I didn't move back to the US--I moved to the US. :) This will be my seventh year in the Bay Area. It's pretty awesome finally being able to get all the ingredients that I keep reading about (Strianese, Grande mozz, Caputo flour).

Let me know if you ever head out here. We have to go pizza touring :)

-James

I remember reading the Pizza Raquel thread and learning from your trials and errors and about pftaylors advice, and honestly, his hand knead method is the method I have used ever since I found it ! Didn't realize the thread was that aged lol

And yes I was remembering the difficulty you had finding proper ingredients, Move to US? I would love to move to AUS!

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2013, 01:50:01 AM »
Oceans, I remember that thread too! I can't believe you still remember me from there. It's been years lol.
Australia is *great*. Hit me up if you ever visit and I'll send you an eating itinerary.

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Cleaning Cycle Journey Begins
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2013, 01:59:01 AM »
Some pics from the latest bake.

Caputo, 62% hydration, 2.6% salt, 6% culture, 22 hour fermentation at 60F then 80F. Hand mix for 10 minutes with spoon then folds every 20min 3-4 times. 40% volume rise.

I tried going with 100% volume rise per Craig but found that I couldn't maintain the gluten integrity of the dough. When I took it out of the container it kind of just collapsed into a thousand wet strands. With ~50% volume increase, I get a good, firm, disk that has puff but handles well.

It's pretty clear that I'm already hitting the limitations of the cleaning cycle bake. The broiler elements are in the middle so I can't really get an even bake. I have to stick an aluminium pan between each bake to keep the stone in check. Every time I open the door I flood the house with heat. If a little bench flour burns both smoke detectors go off. Baking a pizza in this manner is pretty much like going to war. I am seriously considering a Blackstone at this point.


« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 02:09:19 AM by JF_Aidan_Pryde »