Author Topic: Who is a bacteria expert?  (Read 1972 times)

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Online JD

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Who is a bacteria expert?
« on: June 29, 2013, 09:01:43 PM »
Just a thought...

If you could propagate and harvest a large quantity of lactobacillus bacteria (as you would yogurt), and then pitch it into your dough, you probably wouldn't have to wait the 2+ days for the flavor profile we're looking for.

Does anyone know a human consumption-safe way of doing this?
Josh


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2013, 03:16:54 PM »
JD;
How about just using plain yogurt containing an active culture to start a sour, then propagate the sour for several days and use from that to flavor your doughs?
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Online JD

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 08:58:20 PM »
Thanks for the reply Tom.

Just so I understand, are you suggesting that yogurt bacteria and LAB from cold fermenting dough are one in the same?
Josh

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2013, 09:08:01 PM »
JD, have you ever used yogurt in a pizza dough?
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Online JD

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 09:48:36 PM »
JD, have you ever used yogurt in a pizza dough?

No sir, have you?
Josh

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2013, 10:01:06 PM »
No sir, have you?
Nope, but I'm willing to give it a whirl. Can you suggest a percentage? How about I try a 12hr. counter dough. NY or American pie. Tonight I am doing a 5hr. Chi-thin; used beer instead of water, autolysed, and added half a raw egg.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2013, 10:15:27 PM »
Instead of doing all that JD, you can simply put 20-40% or even higher amounts of a young starter into the dough.  Depending on what your fermentation temp is, your dough will be ready in 4-8 hours.  That will give you all the flavor you want and then some, plus the benefit of making a same day emergency dough. 

If you go with the 20-40% starter route, don't forget to recalculate your baker's percentages.  For example, if you feed your starter with equal weights of water and flour you will have a 100% hydrated starter.  Let's say you end up using a 100gm of starter.  You need to add 50gm of water and 50gm of flour to your flour and water side of your dough to get a more accurate hydration of the dough.  In the same way, you also need to calculate your salt, sugar, and oil levels base on the new flour weight.  That is the flour plus the flour weight from the starter.  So let's say your flour weight is 264gm (I'm making this up).  You would add 264 + 50 = 304 gm.  So in essence you are really working with 304 gm of flour b/c the starter contributes flour to the final dough.  So to figure 2% salt, you would have to take 304 gm x 0.02 = 6.08 gm of salt.  You want to figure salt base on your final flour weight (which is flour weight + flour from the starter) other wise using a large quantity of starter will dilute the salt from your dough if you were to base it off on just the flour weight of the dough alone (sans starter).  Make sense? 

If you want to add yogurt, which is not a terrible idea btw.  I would go with a plain yogurt.  You can also make a home made yogurt butter milk mixture that you can add to dough.  I have made such a concoction but have yet to use it in dough. 

Take a clean jar and fill about half of it with whole milk.  Add a tablespoon or two of the yogurt for the culture.  Mix well and leave it at room temps for 24-36 hours.  You are looking for the milk to sour or thicken up.  Now stick that in the fridge and you have some homemade buttermilk/yogurt.   For starters, I would add maybe a tablespoon per doughball's worth of dough for added flavor.   You can test the difference by making a 6-8hr dough without the added yogurt and a dough with.   You might have to add just a  touch more flour to the yogurt dough to get the same consistency in both doughs.

Also try doing a search for "Kefir".  I believe Norma has experimented with adding Kefir to her dough and has had some success. 

Chau
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 10:19:16 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 10:47:19 PM »

If you want to add yogurt, which is not a terrible idea btw.  I would go with a plain yogurt.  You can also make a home made yogurt butter milk mixture that you can add to dough.  I have made such a concoction but have yet to use it in dough. 


Your comment made me think about going the other way. Some flavored yogurt for a unique topping mix. Lemon yogurt with a nice arugula pie?

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 11:36:57 PM »
FWIW, yogurt is an ingredient in naan, which, if done right, is basically Indo-politan pizza :)  Hand stretched, wfo, blazingly fast bake time.

I'm not sure I'd add yogurt to longer baked pizza, though, as the acid will create a more elastic dough. Perhaps it might do well with a lower protein flour for longer bakes.

Online JD

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2013, 08:11:11 AM »
Nope, but I'm willing to give it a whirl. Can you suggest a percentage? How about I try a 12hr. counter dough. NY or American pie. Tonight I am doing a 5hr. Chi-thin; used beer instead of water, autolysed, and added half a raw egg.

Your guess is as good as mine, I'm thinking out-loud here. Sounds like Chau suggested a good starting point. Let me know if you really do this, I'm quite curious now.

Instead of doing all that JD, you can simply put 20-40% or even higher amounts of a young starter into the dough. 

Thanks for the detailed response Chau.

While I do have a starter, I'm actually thinking more along the lines of applying this when people only use ADY/IDY in their emergency dough. I'm also not really suggesting the use of Yogurt, I was using it as an example on how we already propogate bacteria. However I need to do a little research now to see if yogurt culture is essentially the same as LAB from multi-day ferments.

The homemade yogurt butter milk idea is a good idea. Instead of using a tablespoon or two of yogurt, I'm thinking I can add a tablespoon of mature poolish, or starter, specifically to grow the "correct" bacteria. Does this sound feasible?

The Kefir seems to be very similar to what I'm looking to do. I'll read through that thread, thanks again Chau.

Your comment made me think about going the other way. Some flavored yogurt for a unique topping mix. Lemon yogurt with a nice arugula pie?

Sounds good!

FWIW, yogurt is an ingredient in naan, which, if done right, is basically Indo-politan pizza :)  Hand stretched, wfo, blazingly fast bake time.

I'm not sure I'd add yogurt to longer baked pizza, though, as the acid will create a more elastic dough. Perhaps it might do well with a lower protein flour for longer bakes.

Thanks Scott. I think you coined a new pizza style!

I'm not sure I want to add yogurt to my dough unless I learn it is the same bacteria that would eventually wind up in my dough after a few days cold ferment. I have some research to do, and some experimentation. Like everyone else, I'm just trying to break that emergency dough/flavorless crust barrier.




This is the theoretical process I have in my head right now:

Make dough per normal procedure, but replace yeast with ?% harvested bacteria.
Let sit for 6 hours at 90* to develop flavor
After 6 hours, knead in (large)% of yeast to start fermentation
Ball and let sit 1-2 more hours
Make pizza


Josh


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2013, 08:40:49 AM »
To me JD, there isn't too much difference between adding milk kefir, homemade yogurt/buttermilk, or yogurt itself.  You are basically adding milk products and bateria.  Yes you can add a tablespoon or two of a mature starter to milk and what will it propogate?  More yeast and bacteria and sour milk.  When you add it to your dough, you will essentially be adding yeast, bacteria, and sour milk. 

As far as boosting flavor to an emergency dough that is exactly what I do with the Starter.  I use 20-30% starter alongside with some IDY.  You get some flavor from the bacteria in the starter without adding the milk products.  When you add starter you are basically adding flour, water, natural yeast, and bacteria. 

Adding milk or milk products to a dough and depending on how much of it you add can really change your crust.  You are adding protein, sugars, and other things which may alter your regular crust too much.  I am not veering you away from experimenting here JD.  I hope you find what you are looking for.  I am letting you know that you can boost flavor of an emergency dough by simply using more starter without it altering your dough very much. 

Chau

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2013, 08:56:01 AM »
JD;
I'm not a microbiologist, but I am betting that there is more than just one or two different strains of lactic acid forming bacteria. Each of the different types creates a different flavor. Even in a natural sour, there are different flavors due to the different bacteria that have been cultured. I've seen some cultures selling for as much as $20,000.00, all because of the unique flavor resulting from that particular microflora. In a natural sour, it is possible to lose the sour all to easily. The easiest way is to let the temperature get out of control (forget to put it back into the fridge?), what happens then is that a different bacteria becomes the dominant strain, thus producing a different flavor in the end product, hence the sour was "lost". This is why we always advise if you have a really good sour, store it in separate containers is different places for management, that way if the sour is lost at one location, you can always use one of the others to seed a new culture, thus preserving the strain/balance of microflora that is responsible for the flavor you are looking for.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2013, 09:52:50 AM »
I am betting that there is more than just one or two different strains of lactic acid forming bacteria.

Four sure, there are many.

Typical lactic acid bacteria (LAB) species found in yogurt include: Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus, L. acidophilus, and L. casei. All are also known to be found in sourdough in some region of the world.

Here is an interesting article; near the end is a table that identifies LAB species commonly found in sourdough breads in different regions of the world: http://comenius.susqu.edu/biol/312/thesourdoughmicroflorabiodiversityandmetabolicinteractions.pdf
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 09:59:39 AM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2013, 10:16:04 AM »
If you are wanting to "experiment" with flavor profiles of different bacteria (that are safe for consumption) then why not just use the pure bacteria itself?

I ingest a couple of billion lactobacillus GG organisms every day when I pop a Culturelle pill in my mouth. I have never tried culturing this stuff in dough, but assuming you have the time and interest, I think that you could really go to town with different strains of bacteria in this fashion.

Each "brand" of probiotic has a different strain of bacteria, so you could work with the unique organism, or combination of organisms that you like best.

Since there's no yeast in these, you'd need commercial yeast as your leavening agent.

Just thinking outside the box here!

John K
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Online JD

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2013, 11:18:39 AM »
To me JD, there isn't too much difference between adding milk kefir, homemade yogurt/buttermilk, or yogurt itself.  You are basically adding milk products and bateria.  Yes you can add a tablespoon or two of a mature starter to milk and what will it propogate?  More yeast and bacteria and sour milk.  When you add it to your dough, you will essentially be adding yeast, bacteria, and sour milk. 

As far as boosting flavor to an emergency dough that is exactly what I do with the Starter.  I use 20-30% starter alongside with some IDY.  You get some flavor from the bacteria in the starter without adding the milk products.  When you add starter you are basically adding flour, water, natural yeast, and bacteria. 

Adding milk or milk products to a dough and depending on how much of it you add can really change your crust.  You are adding protein, sugars, and other things which may alter your regular crust too much.  I am not veering you away from experimenting here JD.  I hope you find what you are looking for.  I am letting you know that you can boost flavor of an emergency dough by simply using more starter without it altering your dough very much. 

Chau

I understand what you're saying Chau, and its appreciated. I haven't used my starter in 6 months since my focus has been NY Style (and I don't have a WFO anymore). I'm not doubting you, it's just not really relevant to my process right now since I don't maintain a starter anymore. The additional points you made are very relevant though (how milk will drastically change the crust), so I'd like to manage that.

Also it seems like harvesting and maintaining a single type of bacteria may be much harder than anticipated according to Tom's post.


I'm not trying to cross any ethical boundaries or produce a product for sales purposes, but if I could create an emergency dough with Ischia flavor, without ever having to maintain a starter... wouldn't that be convenient? I understand purists will not see the benefit, as you lose the art of pizza making.

If you are wanting to "experiment" with flavor profiles of different bacteria (that are safe for consumption) then why not just use the pure bacteria itself?

I ingest a couple of billion lactobacillus GG organisms every day when I pop a Culturelle pill in my mouth. I have never tried culturing this stuff in dough, but assuming you have the time and interest, I think that you could really go to town with different strains of bacteria in this fashion.

Each "brand" of probiotic has a different strain of bacteria, so you could work with the unique organism, or combination of organisms that you like best.

Since there's no yeast in these, you'd need commercial yeast as your leavening agent.

Just thinking outside the box here!

John K

This is very in-line with what I'm thinking about. But who knows what lactobacillus GG tastes like?
Since you already have that product, care to experiment??  ;D Just crush one pill for one dough ball and see what happens after a day or two? Certainly do not feel obligated to, especially if you're worried about your health.

Clearly there is a way to do what I'm asking, but you probably need some high-technology equipment to do it successfully
Josh

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2013, 11:26:20 AM »
This is very in-line with what I'm thinking about. But who knows what lactobacillus GG tastes like?
Since you already have that product, care to experiment??  ;D Just crush one pill for one dough ball and see what happens after a day or two? Certainly do not feel obligated to, especially if you're worried about your health.

Clearly there is a way to do what I'm asking, but you probably need some high-technology equipment to do it successfully
[/quote]

I will happily try that for you! But my point about the food-safe nature of this bacteria is that more and more we are finding out that the more of this "good bacteria" in your system the better! The main issue is going to be whether the species used in probiotics have any utility from a flavor standpoint.

I'll let you know what I come up with. I'll plan on a 60ish% with ADY or IDY, and use either caputo or the GM00. Not sure exactly when I'll bake next, however!

John K
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2013, 11:30:12 AM »
If you are wanting to "experiment" with flavor profiles of different bacteria (that are safe for consumption) then why not just use the pure bacteria itself?

I ingest a couple of billion lactobacillus GG organisms every day when I pop a Culturelle pill in my mouth. I have never tried culturing this stuff in dough, but assuming you have the time and interest, I think that you could really go to town with different strains of bacteria in this fashion.

Each "brand" of probiotic has a different strain of bacteria, so you could work with the unique organism, or combination of organisms that you like best.

Since there's no yeast in these, you'd need commercial yeast as your leavening agent.

Just thinking outside the box here!

John K

The main problem (maybe problem isn't the right word) I think you will have with this is that traditional (Type I) sourdough cultures are symbiotic relationships that evolve between specific strains (not just species) of yeast and LAB. The interaction of the two metabolisms are largely what is responsible for the various compounds that produce the flavors we seek. None of these are likely to have any sort of mutually beneficial relationship with bakers yeast or even a wild yeast you might happen to cultivate locally.

I think it is unlikely that you will have much success developing flavor in your dough with yogurt or probiotic bacteria - unless you want your dough to taste like yogurt that is... who knows though. It's worth a try.
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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2013, 11:41:51 AM »
The main problem (maybe problem isn't the right word) I think you will have with this is that traditional (Type I) sourdough cultures are symbiotic relationships that evolve between specific strains (not just species) of yeast and LAB. The interaction of the two metabolisms are largely what is responsible for the various compounds that produce the flavors we seek. None of these are likely to have any sort of mutually beneficial relationship with bakers yeast or even a wild yeast you might happen to cultivate locally.

I think it is unlikely that you will have much success developing flavor in your dough with yogurt or probiotic bacteria - unless you want your dough to taste like yogurt that is... who knows though. It's worth a try.

Totally agree with the lack of pre-defined outcome goal! What am I trying to achieve exactly? And how do I describe my subjective findings to others!!!????

But for the sake of pseudo-science I don't mind trying! :-D

John K
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Online JD

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2013, 12:21:15 PM »
The main problem (maybe problem isn't the right word) I think you will have with this is that traditional (Type I) sourdough cultures are symbiotic relationships that evolve between specific strains (not just species) of yeast and LAB. The interaction of the two metabolisms are largely what is responsible for the various compounds that produce the flavors we seek. None of these are likely to have any sort of mutually beneficial relationship with bakers yeast or even a wild yeast you might happen to cultivate locally.

I think it is unlikely that you will have much success developing flavor in your dough with yogurt or probiotic bacteria - unless you want your dough to taste like yogurt that is... who knows though. It's worth a try.

This is why I titled the thread "Who is a bacteria expert?". You don't know what you don't know, and what you don't know Craig knows. You're probably right that it's not likely to succeed, or otherwise it probably would have been invented already "add this powder to your dough to simulate different breads/pizza styles!"

If John is willing to try then yes its worth it for me  :D

John: If it were me, I would make one dough ball (whatever size you wanted). Split it in half and add a crushed pill (or is it capsules?) to one. Then compare the two. You can even make a simple bread, doesn't really matter.




Totally agree with the lack of pre-defined outcome goal! What am I trying to achieve exactly? And how do I describe my subjective findings to others!!!????

But for the sake of pseudo-science I don't mind trying! :-D

John K
Josh

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Who is a bacteria expert?
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2013, 12:32:18 PM »
John: If it were me, I would make one dough ball (whatever size you wanted). Split it in half and add a crushed pill (or is it capsules?) to one. Then compare the two. You can even make a simple bread, doesn't really matter.

JD,

Its just powder in a capsule so it should be pretty easy to just mix it in with the dry ingredients. It is of such small volume that it won't affect the recipe at all.


John K
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