Author Topic: Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation  (Read 2368 times)

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Offline philipmason

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« on: July 04, 2013, 12:54:02 PM »
I have made many pizzas the last 60 days or so, I have also done much reading, thinking, and research. Yes, this is a science and art. Really fun.

Many disasters in beginning until I started baking at above 600F. I want to get to 750, am working on it.

Much awesome reading here, both moderators, and members. My New York style pizza recently is getting very good, for me, probably not many die hard NY's would like or agree. Why?

1. High oil content
2.  3 hour warm ferment from a bread maker put on the dough maker selection
3. High yeast content.
5. High hydration
6. High sugar
7. 2% cheese (mozz)
8. No "rim" on dough

All outside standard guidelines.

However, the ones within standard guideline:

1. 5 minute bake time most important per Pete-zza (thank you). Working on  a four minute.
2. Standard salt
3. .07 TF.
4. Uncooked Cento based sauce.

I find a 1 to 3 day cold ferment makes little or no difference in taste. But he high oil did make a difference, a good one.

My formula:

Flour (100%):    106.81 g  |  3.77 oz | 0.24 lbs
Water (66.67%):    71.21 g  |  2.51 oz | 0.16 lbs
IDY (.96%):    1.03 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.34 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
Salt (1.55%):    1.66 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.3 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
Oil (6.35%):    6.78 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.51 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Sugar (2.8%):    2.99 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (178.33%):   190.48 g | 6.72 oz | 0.42 lbs | TF = 0.0707

BA bread flour, purified water, 640 F oven, 5 minute bake on  a stone. It has the foldability and great brown, spotted bottom of crust.

Pictures later.

Questions I cant answer:

1. I have read yeast ONLY produces ethanol and CO2. Ethanol gives some flavor, CO2 rise. And I have read it produces other by products for flavor. What by products?
2. How does slow cold ferment affect taste if yeast only produces ethanol and CO2?
3. My understanding is a  cold ferment good for a sour dough starter, it slows the yeast, allows the bacteria to produce lactic acid. Makes sense, so why not just add lactic acid instead?
4. Why not high or higher oil, oil adds rich flavor to any food usually?
5. Why not 66.7% hydration, higher yeast, higher sugar?
6. Does all this make mine NON New York?

Will post pictures soon, and great help from all of you, thanks.




« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 01:02:07 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline philipmason

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2013, 08:03:32 PM »
Sorry for bad subject matter. Will continue to study the forums others posts on my topics.

thanks

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2013, 08:50:23 PM »
Sorry for bad subject matter. Will continue to study the forums others posts on my topics.

thanks
philip,
No need to apologize friend. Most all the folks that would have normally responded to you are pretty busy right now over on the Blackstone grill thread. Please don't get discouraged..help is on it's way.

Given that you are talking about some radical departures from the norm....I can tell you right now that we are all waiting on some pics of your pies. Post them up and lets get down to business on addressing your questions.
It's obvious you've done your homework....welcome to the forum and thanks for your good post. :chef:

Bob
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scott123

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2013, 06:09:25 PM »
Philip, what you're making is clearly a NY/American hybrid- and there's nothing wrong with that.  If you grew up eating American style pizza, then you might like more oil and sugar in your crust. To each his/her own.

If you are looking for authenticity, though, the only really inauthentic aspects of your recipe that I can see are the sugar and the oil.  That's it (and maybe the salt).

2.  3 hour warm ferment from a bread maker put on the dough maker selection
3. High yeast content.


3 hour ferments are, unfortunately, very common for NY, and have been so, for quite some time.  Yeast and fermentation time go hand in hand, so a quick ferment requires lots of yeast.

5. High hydration


67% is a little outside the norm, but I would never question a NY style pizza's authenticity based on hydration- at least, not below 70.

7. 2% cheese (mozz)


You're the first person I've met that has used baker's percentages for the cheese.  It's not a bad idea, but, right now, it's Greek to me. Regardless, NY style pizza can have a lot of cheese to almost none. Cheese quantity plays no part in authenticity.

8. No "rim" on dough


Well, it depends on how you define 'no rim.'  If you're pinching the edge, like a rolling pin, then yes, that's not NY, but if you're pressing out a really small rim- so small that the final product is pretty much rimless, then that's incredibly authentic.

Quote
1. I have read yeast ONLY produces ethanol and CO2. Ethanol gives some flavor, CO2 rise. And I have read it produces other by products for flavor. What by products?
2. How does slow cold ferment affect taste if yeast only produces ethanol and CO2?
3. My understanding is a  cold ferment good for a sour dough starter, it slows the yeast, allows the bacteria to produce lactic acid. Makes sense, so why not just add lactic acid instead?
4. Why not high or higher oil, oil adds rich flavor to any food usually?
5. Why not 66.7% hydration, higher yeast, higher sugar?
6. Does all this make mine NON New York?

Part of the delay in replying is that the answers to these questions could fill a book  :) Let me answer what I can.

This is a bit of an oversimplification and there might be members that disagree with me, but breadmaking involves initial ingredients and process derived ingredients.

Initial ingredients can include:
Yeast
Flour (which can contain added enzymes)
Water
Oil
Salt
Sugar
Sourdough culture (bacteria + wild yeast)

Process derived ingredients can include:
Gluten (water + flour + physical manipulation/agitation, also water + flour + time)
Sugar (enzyme derived)
Amino Acids/Flavor enhancers (enzyme derived)
Alcohol (yeast)
CO2 (yeast)
Lactic Acid (bacteria)
Acetic Acid  (bacteria)

As you can see, what may start as a pretty simple recipe, when you add process derived ingredients, it can get quite complex- and even more complex when ingredients react with each other. Not to mention, this is, as I said, an oversimplification and there are many other compounds being produced.  I do feel, though, that these are the biggest players.

Colder temperatures tend to favor enzyme activity. Enzymes produce a considerable amount of flavor- sugar and glutamates (think naturally occurring MSG or soy sauce).  This is why overnight cold fermented doughs are always more flavorful than same day room temp or fast high temp doughs. The only mitigating factor in the enzyme flavor derived equation is the quantity of enzymes in the flour/dough.  Malt = enzymes. Malted flour = enzyme enriched flour.  99% of American flours are malted.  European/Italian flours generally are not. Unmalted flours still have naturally occurring enzymes, but the quantity is so small that it takes them far longer to generate amino acids and sugar. This lack of enzyme activity is an advantage in Neapolitan pizza baked at very high temperatures, because too much enzyme generated sugar will burn. It is a disadvantage for NY bake times, though, as the additional sugar gives you browning and the enzymes have a tenderizing effect. This is why, for NY style pizza, malted flour is recommended.

NY style pizza has traditionally been a lean dough.  There's nothing inherently better or worse about lower or higher oil breads, they're just different.  I can get just as much pleasure from a croissant as I can from a slice of no oil pizza. Same thing with sugar.  NY style pizza is just not that sweet. It just is was it is. As I said earlier, if you gravitates towards a sweeter, oiler American-ish pizza, there's nothing wrong with that.   

Before you completely accept your predilection for hybrids, though, I would definitely revisit longer fermentations. There's a slight difference in flavor between 1 and 3 day doughs, but, between 3 hours and 3 days- you're talking about different universes. I don't normally recommend fermenting doughs this long regularly, but a really good training exercise for seeing the flavor achieved through long cold fermentation is to dial back the yeast and ferment the dough for 5 days. If you push it that long, the fermentation flavors will be far more recognizable.

Also, since flavor seems to be somewhat important to you.  1.5% salt is light. 2% is much more in the NY realm and will give you much more flavor.

Lastly, you can feel free to play around with sourdough, but that's completely outside the NY realm. If you have sourdough questions, I might post them to the Neapolitan forum, since those are the SD experts.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 06:11:44 PM by scott123 »

Offline philipmason

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2013, 11:58:37 AM »
Thanks scott123.

All makes perfect sense, I will add more salt and less sugar per your suggestions, and I am trying cold ferment again, but as I said, to me and my wife, there was no flavor enhancement last times we did  a 3 day cold ferment, and it was all standard NY percentages.

Sorry, I keep forgetting to take pictures will do tonight or tomorrow.

I feel the most important "flavor enhancer" is the less than 6 minute bake time. Trying to get to 4 minutes. Comments?

Also:

1. The 2 % mozz cheese was fat content. I thought the dry 4% was the best to use, I cant find it though.
2. What percentage IDY for a 1,  3 , and 5 day cold ferment?
3. Any thoughts on why my cold ferment has no more flavor than the warm ferment? I used standard oil/salt/sugar on the cold ferments of past.
4. I am doing a 1 and 3 day cold ferment with high oil/sugar. I will post it.
5. I made a 10% oil pizza the other day. Very good.
6. Your comment "If you're pressing out a really small rim- so small that the final product is pretty much rimless, then that's incredibly authentic." Is what I am doing, but all NY I have seen has a huge rim. Please
    comment???
7. No sour dough for NY style, however, Jeff Varasanos talks about it on his web site???


Excellent explanation of "initial ingredients and process derived ingredients"!

The questions I have on "derived ingredients":

A. Gluten formation. This adds to strength of dough, so does cold ferment makes more gluten or just increase the gluten structure?
B. Does more gluten mean more flavor?
C. Does cold ferment make more "Sugar (enzyme derived)" and "Amino Acids/Flavor enhancers (enzyme derived)"
D. Which amino acids?
E. What kind (s) of sugar?
F. Could you just do warm ferment and add the sugars and amino acids?
G. I use KA bread flour. It has malted barley in it. Does this mean it has enzymes?
H. Diastatic Malt has enzymes, can you use this instead of sugar to ensure enzyme activity?

I am a nutritional supplement freak. I have studied supplements for over 30 years. And have taken many of them over the years. I take enzymes, however I read they are easy to destry, heat above 110 or so, destroys them as does low PH (acid). So are we really getting enzymes in our flour?????

Can you just add some enzymes? Protein and or carbo active enzymes?


So I am really deviant here, ha! Using 10% oil for a .07 TF. But it tastes good to me, that's what I am after.

Also, Neapolitan sough dough, that requires a 2 minute or less bake time?

Why cant you add Lactobacillus acidophilus to to the dough with yeast to make a 3 day cold ferment  sourdough?

Can you use sour dough for NY style?

Thank you,
Philip











scott123

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2013, 05:06:16 AM »
I feel the most important "flavor enhancer" is the less than 6 minute bake time. Trying to get to 4 minutes. Comments?

4 minutes, imo, is mostly textural- the faster  bake improves the oven spring. Unless you've got a stone/plate that's running on the hot side, and 4 minutes is giving you either a dark undercrust or an undercrust speckled with char.  Char or darker maillard compounds can definitely drive up the flavor quotient.

1. The 2 % mozz cheese was fat content. I thought the dry 4% was the best to use, I cant find it though.

The fat from the cheese is a HUGE player in flavor. Keep looking for whole milk cheese. you can also supplement part skim cheese with some fat by using fatty foods like pepperoni or by adding some melted butter- but nothing compares to whole milk, imo.

2. What percentage IDY for a 1,  3 , and 5 day cold ferment?

Whatever quantity doubles the volume of dough in the allotted time.  It's really not that cut and dry.  It all depends on temperatures- room temp, water temp, refrigerator temp, etc. etc.  .5% might not be a bad jumping off point for 3 days, but I'd watch the dough closely and see if it's ready by day 2.

3. Any thoughts on why my cold ferment has no more flavor than the warm ferment? I used standard oil/salt/sugar on the cold ferments of past.


Do a very high yeast 2 hour dough and a very low yeast 5 day dough and taste the two side by side.  You'll understand immediately what I'm talking about.

6. Your comment "If you're pressing out a really small rim- so small that the final product is pretty much rimless, then that's incredibly authentic." Is what I am doing, but all NY I have seen has a huge rim. Please comment???

Have you been to New York?  ;D  Here's a prominent New York Area pizza blogger.

http://www.sliceharvester.com/

Click on some of the reviews to the right and you'll see what typical rims look like

7. No sour dough for NY style, however, Jeff Varasanos talks about it on his web site???

Jeff was/is wrong ;D Industry insiders have provided irrefutable proof to this effect:

Varasano/Patsy's Culture...?
Patsy's Culture question

Jeff is one of the first online pizza obsessives to make the connection between bake times and superior pizza, and for that, he deserves considerable respect, but he really dropped the ball with the whole starter quest shenanigans, and has done countless aspiring NY style pizza makers a tremendous disservice by not revising his website to reflect the new information.

A. Gluten formation. This adds to strength of dough, so does cold ferment makes more gluten or just increase the gluten structure?

The protein in flour, when combined with water, forms gluten, so the quantity of protein dictates, to an extent, how much potential gluten can be generated.  Kneading and time develop gluten, so if you want a little less or a little more, you can decrease or increase either accordingly.  Cold fermentation slows down the yeast activity and extends the clock, so during this additional time, more gluten tends to form.  I say 'tend' because time will only develop gluten to a point. I'd like to see some studies on this, but, until then, I think that time related gluten development (usually from flour absorbing water) ends after 12 hours.  Now, after that time, you can definitely develop gluten by mechanical means (re-balling/stretch and folds), but just letting the dough sit further generally doesn't develop gluten- in fact, as time progresses the enzymes break down the gluten and you see weakening/extensibility.

B. Does more gluten mean more flavor?

Gluten, like faster bakes, is mostly textural.  You need just enough of it to create good oven spring, but not too much that your dough is elastic/hard to stretch and your crust is tough.

C. Does cold ferment make more "Sugar (enzyme derived)" and "Amino Acids/Flavor enhancers (enzyme derived)"


Yes.

D. Which amino acids?

Glutamic acid

E. What kind (s) of sugar?

Complex chains get sliced into shorter ones/simpler sugars, but all roads pretty much lead to glucose.

F. Could you just do warm ferment and add the sugars and amino acids?

I've tried adding soy sauce to dough and, while not as flavorless/bland as a quick fermented dough, it didn't have the same complexity as a 2 day dough. I may just need to dial in the quantity, though.

G. I use KA bread flour. It has malted barley in it. Does this mean it has enzymes?

Yes

H. Diastatic Malt has enzymes, can you use this instead of sugar to ensure enzyme activity?

Possibly, although it can lead to gummy crust textures.  I think, with the right chemistry, one might be able to make a 3 hour dough that tasted like a 3 day dough, but, we're not there yet.

So are we really getting enzymes in our flour?????

Absolutely. I'm not sure what temperatures the enzymes in flour/malt deactivate, but I've never seen a dough that didn't, if fermented long enough, start showing signs of enzyme activity (knobby texture/translucent bubbles).

Can you just add some enzymes? Protein and or carbo active enzymes?


I've tried this and ended up with doughs that could be poured. Again, I think it's possible, but some trial and error is necessary to dial in the quantities.

Also, Neapolitan sough dough, that requires a 2 minute or less bake time?

It depends on who you ask  :)  I've gone back and forth between less than 90 seconds and less than 2 minutes. Right now, I think I'm 60-90 seconds.

Why cant you add Lactobacillus acidophilus to to the dough with yeast to make a 3 day cold ferment  sourdough?

This was discussed recently.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26069.msg263234.html#msg263234

Can you use sour dough for NY style?


You can do anything you want  ;D but, for authentic NY style pizza, sourdough has no place.

Offline philipmason

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2013, 09:29:22 AM »
Nice, thank you. Much good info.

So It's an on gong experiment, some questions still unanswered.

I will continue to experiment.

Here is one I made last night (actually wife made it, I just helped). Same formula as above, but :

1.  ONE DAY (24 hour exactly) COLD FERMENT
2. Added some acidophilus
3. 10 % oil


A 5.5 minute bake time on a 1/2" stone, 675 degree F (I measured it), .07 TF, KA bread flour, 2 percent fat mozz cheese. Half veggie, half peperoni.

Cold ferment definitely better, will try a three day tomorrow.

Pictures not good, sorry had a evening of drinking beer.


I thought our best ever. Foldable, nice charred bottom.

It may not look too good, but we liked it. I will continue this

and thanks again for all the above knowledge!


Offline philipmason

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2013, 06:27:54 PM »
I would really like some help from these pics, please tell me whats not good. And some suggestions.

Thank you all.

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2013, 06:44:29 PM »
Did you use the broiler at all? To me it looks like the pizza is wanting some more top heat. Bottom looks pretty good though.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2013, 07:07:55 PM »
Did you use the broiler at all? To me it looks like the pizza is wanting some more top heat. Bottom looks pretty good though.
+1  ^^^
You're the one who seems to like all the oil in your formula so I don't know if you'll like hearing "what's not good" from me. I think the slice looks way too tender...the one that is folding all around your hand as you are holding it up(with all the grease below on the plate). I like a crispy NY pie though. You dial that oil back and I'll bet the large amount of sugar you are using will give you more top color too as Jeff talked about.
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Offline philipmason

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2013, 07:14:01 PM »
Yes jeffery,


I was thinking that also, more top heat. The oven has top and bottom that come on together, the bottom has a 1/2" stone in between. No way to turn the top on separately. So if I leave in longer, the bottom may get burnt, or can the bottom stand more?

It's at 675 F, 5 minutes with no veggies, 5.5 minutes with veggies.

Will try again tonight with a 3 hour dough.

Just got some KA sour dough flavor, I will add this.


Will let know how the sour dough flavor taste.

Thanks!!!

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2013, 07:18:39 PM »
I don't care for the idea of a one day cold ferment, if you're gonna use the dough that soon, just let it sit at room temp or if it's too warm stick it in a cooler with a blue ice. Cold fermenting slows the activity of the yeast, and the very "white" looking dough is a telltale sign that you didn't get much activity from the yeast. I also question the amount of oil, oil tenderizes dough and your dough looks overly tender to me.
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Offline philipmason

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2013, 07:20:16 PM »
Chicago Bob,

Ah! good point, the high oil slowing the top browning.

No I like hearing negatives and positives, thank you Bob.

Just trying different approaches, even though I know many of this has been tried before, maybe not 10% oil.

So , I know you wont like this, but more sugar would help top brown?

With the high sugar, extra high oil, and now sourdough flavor, this may be way out of line even for a hybrid.

High oil is flavor for me, but at many expenses.

thanks!




Offline philipmason

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2013, 07:23:52 PM »
dmcavanagh.

Agree on 1 day ferment, I will try a 3 day tomorrow and eventually a 5 day.

So color should be tanish, off white, that tells you more flavor?

Also, tender crust is bad? Should be more chewy? Crispy?

thank you.


scott123

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2013, 04:03:19 AM »
The oven has top and bottom that come on together, the bottom has a 1/2" stone in between. No way to turn the top on separately. So if I leave in longer, the bottom may get burnt, or can the bottom stand more?

It takes considerably longer for the heat to travel through a 1/2" stone than 5 minutes, so, if you turn the top and bottom elements on during the bake, the bottom will not burn.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2013, 06:08:28 AM »
dmcavanagh.

Agree on 1 day ferment, I will try a 3 day tomorrow and eventually a 5 day.

So color should be tanish, off white, that tells you more flavor?

Also, tender crust is bad? Should be more chewy? Crispy?

thank you.
I consider 3 days to be ideal, but you can go even longer if you are curious. Yeast breaks down the carbohydrates in flour into simple sugars, these sugars aid in browning when the crust is cooked. In a one day cold ferment the yeast cannot release enough of these sugars to get proper browning of your crust. You will see a big difference when you do a three day cold ferment. Dough texture for a NY style should have some crispyness to it, if you like a tender dough, that's ok, but it's not really a NY pizza then.
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Offline philipmason

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2013, 08:21:34 AM »
Thank you.

OK:

1. I do have top and bottom element on, the stone is getting to 675 F. I must do something to get the top brown.
2. If I lower my oil to 3%, reduce sugar to standard NY, and up salt a little, 3 day cold ferment, lower yeast, would that make
     improvements?
3. I tried # 2, seems the way I do now tastes better.
4. I agree, its not NY style, too many factors against it. Maybe too many even to call it a hybrid.
5. The big question as quoted by dmcavanaugh (thank you) "Yeast breaks down the carbohydrates in flour into simple sugars".
    I can not find supporting evidence for this. I can find that the yeast makes CO2 and ethanol. I can find evidence that enzymes,
    particularity amylase, breaks down the carbohydrates in the dough to simply sugars.

And that is why I ask earlier ( thank you scott123) if enzymes are active in flour with malted barley. My research indicated enzymes are very fragile , and I am thinking that in the flour making process, they may be destroyed. So the addition of Diastatic Malt (I have some), would aid in the simple sugar production, thus flavor, maybe quicker than a 3 day ferment??

And then what time and temp is needed to produce the simple flavor sugars (glucose, maltose, sucrose???)

Chemistry it seems, ha!

Diastatic Malt is advertised to have active enzymes.


Online tinroofrusted

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2013, 10:05:15 AM »
Ah! good point, the high oil slowing the top browning. High oil is flavor for me, but at many expenses.

Hi Philip.  I've been following your thread and in my opinion, you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. I think if you moved over to a pizza in teglia style, you would really flip for it. Pizza in teglia is a pan baked pizza popular in Rome, and it is much more suited to the type of dough you want to make. You can add quite a bit of oil both to the dough and to the pan, for lots of good flavor.  And its made with either yeast or natural leaven.  Check out the great Pizzarium thread for some great information on this type of pizza. 

Just my 2 cents.

Best regards,

TinRoof

Offline philipmason

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2013, 10:26:23 AM »
Will do tinroofrusted.

Thank you.

I still like the .07 TF though, so not sure it I would fit in, if it is "pan".

I notice that pan has up to 30% oil. what a sloppy mess that would be, probably have to way lower hydration.

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2013, 01:40:41 PM »


I notice that pan has up to 30% oil. what a sloppy mess that would be, probably have to way lower hydration.

It actually crisps up a lot. It isn't hard to handle. But the TF would be different for this style.