Author Topic: Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation  (Read 2237 times)

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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2013, 05:44:50 PM »
@philipmason, here's a good explaination of what I'm trying to convey   http://baking911.com/quick-guide/how-baking-works/yeast


Offline Skee

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2013, 06:02:22 PM »
It's amylase (an enzyme) in the flour that breaks down the complex carbs so the yeast can eat them and make the desired byproducts.  Ever had a Belgian Tripel?  There's nothing but malted barley, white sugar, and hops in the wort and the yeast makes all those wonderful spicy and funky phenols and esters as byproducts to the production of CO2 and alcohols.

Offline mttfrog13

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2013, 01:42:05 PM »
Phillip,

Your pizza looks a lot like mine when I first got into making pizza. Doing a 3 day ferment is definitely the right thing to do, I think 5 days is ideal. Have friends or family who throw away the end crust when eating pizza? Fermenting the dough 5 days will change this. I've done 1 and 2 day ferments and that is really to short of a time to make any difference. When you ferment for 5 days, there's definitely a difference and you can smell it when you open the container. That smell will still be there when you bake the dough.

I've been experimenting a lot with pizza dough over the last 3 months (rather than just doing 1 standard recipe). In my opinion (I'm still new to this so take it with a grain of salt) it is very difficult to brown high hydration dough with short bake times less than 7 - 8 minutes, unless you have a brick oven. Stone can cook the bottom crust quick enough, but the ambient temp needs to be a lot higher IMO to cook 67% hydration dough. The only way I've been able to do it is by combining my baking steel with a gas broiler with the pizza on the top rack. Problem with this is that your toppings can burn.

A lot of NY style pizzas have hydrations as high as yours, but they're cooked in ovens that provide a lot of top (and side) heat rather than a ton of bottom heat from a stone in a home oven.

Are you aiming for a pizza that is flexible, yet still has a nice brown crust? I think your stone temp is actually probably too high to let the end crust brown before the bottom burns, and there is too much water to let the crust brown in 5 minutes, even with all the added sugar. I would suggest...

-reducing to 1% sugar
-doing 3 - 5 day cold ferment in your fridge
-reducing to .5% yeast
-reducing hydration to 64%
-freeze your cheese before topping the pizza so it won't burn under the broiler
-heating the stone to whatever temp you want and then waiting until your broiler is cycled on and then only using the broiler with the pizza on the highest or second to highest rack in your oven.


You could probably cut the oil in half, but I've had successful pizzas with oil as high as 5% and as low as 1% or none at all. When I make recipes I usually take one of my previous recipes and repeat the recipe with one difference and "all else equal". The only real difference I can notice with and without oil is that the dough will not be as tough to chew and be a little more tender. From what I've done, it seems pointless to use over 3% oil in normal ny style pizza. Olive oil is 'spensive stuff and not worth adding that much oil. The only time I would use a lot of oil is when you're making thick crust pizzas. Think about it...if you have a thick crust, that means a lot of chewing, so you want your dough more tender and easier to chew since you'll be eating a lot of it. But if you're making .07 thin pizza, a lot of oil won't really help anything. If you want flavor from it, I used to brush a layer of garlic olive oil on the crust before baking.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 07:44:20 AM by mttfrog13 »

Offline mttfrog13

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2013, 01:57:32 PM »
It's amylase (an enzyme) in the flour that breaks down the complex carbs.....

Thanks for explaining that. It isn't the yeast that creates the sugar, but the enzymes in the barley, which is why when brewing beer, mashing the grain is what actually creates the sugar, and then you just throw the yeast in there to create alcohol and flavor.

Offline philipmason

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2013, 09:06:23 AM »
I tried a 3 day cold ferment. The dough tore too much. It was a failure, compared to the same dough after a 1 day cold ferment.

So obviously I am doing something wrong, maybe high oil/sugar messing up the gluten structure.

I still am finding controversial evidence as to yeast breaking down carbs to get sugars. I read that the way yeast do this is they release an enzyme to break down the carbs, then they consume it to  make CO2 and ethanol.

Other articles say, a single cell creature, has NO enzymes, that is why malted barley is added.

I can see the CO2 from the rise, and smell the ethanol.

The flavor is from something breaking down the complex carbs into simple sugars, thus taste and browning.

Why am I trying to determine this?

If it's enzymes, then adding diastatic malt powder, which claims to have enzymes my be an option.

Any suggestions on why my three day cold ferment tore?

Thank you all.




Online Pete-zza

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2013, 09:37:24 AM »
philipmason,

When my memory fails me or my thinking gets muddled on the subject of fermentation, I always first turn to the subject matter at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm#Fermentation%20Control. It is my bible on the subject. If you go to the home page for theartisan.net, at http://www.theartisan.net/, you will find links to other facets of dough making that are also highly informative.

Peter

Offline philipmason

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2013, 09:42:41 AM »
Thank you pizza god!!

Offline philipmason

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2013, 09:52:01 AM »
Also, my reading indicates that fermentation above 80 F results in the yeast or bacteria making bad tasting by products.

Any experience in this?


I did a three day high oil cold ferment, with sourdough FLAVOR, and baked it last night. No taste difference, but it was good. Family devoured it, even through dough tore.

I have been using high oil/sugar, and looking at additives (malt, sourdough flavor, probiotics, sour cream, etc) None have worked so far.

My goal is to short cut really, get dough that tastes good in three hours or less. Thats why I have been doing high oil/sugar and looking at additives for taste to make up for a 3 hour ferment.

I now exposed myself, ha!

Offline mttfrog13

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Re: My NY Style Pizza And Dough Formulation
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2013, 02:23:38 PM »
The sugar is coming from the enzymes in the flour itself breaking down into sugar. The flavor is coming from the yeast eating the sugar and creating byproducts. I think the cold fermentation is good because just like with brewing beer, you don't want your yeast to get out of control. Beer brewed at too high of a temp always has off flavors, but when ever you're brewing a smooth ale or lager, the temp would be lower.

It's very true that dough that has been cold fermented for more than a couple of days will be easier to tear. I don't think there would really be a solution to that rather than just being more careful with the dough.

If you're not interested in cold fermenting then your recipe is probably pretty good but I'd up the salt to at least 2%.

I've heard that oil can coat the flour and not allow the flour to properly hydrate and hinder gluten development. You might want to try hydrating the flour first in a poolish. I've never done it before so maybe someone can chime in. Wetter flour/yeast ferments faster and easier, which is why no knead recipes with hydrations around 70% require so little yeast. So basically you can get a lot more fermentation done that you normally would. If done too long, you could actually over ferment.

Mix your yeast, water, and enough flour to get you to 100% hydration. I think you'd want it to sit overnight in the fridge, but I think you can do shorter times at warmer temps. This will give the flour time to hydrate and also I believe it will add a lot of flavor to the dough. After the preferment, add your salt, oil, and start adding your remaining flour and kneading as you add the rest of your flour. Then just let it rise for an hour or two.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 03:37:54 PM by mttfrog13 »


 

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