Author Topic: New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?  (Read 1182 times)

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Offline AustinSpartan

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New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?
« on: September 08, 2014, 01:28:02 PM »
I've been making pizza for around 6 years now, but they have mostly been NY or American style dough formulations. Having recently purchased a Blackstone patio oven, I decided to try my hand at Neapolitan. I've formulated a dough recipe based on research, and assembled it with the pre-fermen calculator. My trouble occurs when it's time to ball the dough.

The dough is based on 63% hydration, and it is a very wet / sticky dough. Whenever I try to move the dough onto a surface and then begin the dividing / balling process, the dough is sticking to everything. I've struggled to be able to establish a firm skin on the dough balls, because of this problem. How are you fellow Neapolitano dough lovers able to go from bulk fermentation to balled dough balls?

Offline mitchjg

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Re: New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2014, 02:49:55 PM »
It will probably be helpful if you post the type of flour you are using, your exact formula (beyond 63% hydration) listing the grams of water, flour (what kind of flour?), starter, salt, etc. and how you prepare the dough.

Let us know and I am sure someone can help you.

- Mitch
Mitch

Offline jvp123

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Re: New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2014, 02:57:26 PM »
I've been making pizza for around 6 years now, but they have mostly been NY or American style dough formulations. Having recently purchased a Blackstone patio oven, I decided to try my hand at Neapolitan. I've formulated a dough recipe based on research, and assembled it with the pre-fermen calculator. My trouble occurs when it's time to ball the dough.

The dough is based on 63% hydration, and it is a very wet / sticky dough. Whenever I try to move the dough onto a surface and then begin the dividing / balling process, the dough is sticking to everything. I've struggled to be able to establish a firm skin on the dough balls, because of this problem. How are you fellow Neapolitano dough lovers able to go from bulk fermentation to balled dough balls?

Just learning myself with this type of dough but mine is sticky too.  The stretch and folds and letting it rest between stretch and folds usually helps tighten it up.
Jeff

Offline Gags

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Re: New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2014, 07:27:18 PM »
Please provide more details...

How long are you kneading?

I find that initially, my NP dough (63%) is also a sticky, tacky mess.
After about 10 mins of hand-kneading, I have a good ball I can work with, but it still has a cottage cheese-like lumpy appearance.
After about 20 mins and a couple of breaks (stretch and folds), it gets that satin-like finish.
A little bit longer and I have (acceptable to me) gluten development.
By that I mean I like the end result and it isn't susceptible to tears when forming.

So my recommendation is, if you're not doing it now, to keep kneading until it gets smooth.

Hope it helps!
"I'd trade it all for just a little bit more"

Offline sub

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Re: New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2014, 05:03:36 AM »
Mine is like glue with 68% hydration after the kneading, as said before the strech & folds helps a lot !

You can also dip your finger into the bag of flour before handling the dough.


Offline AustinSpartan

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Re: New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2014, 09:30:55 PM »
Sorry for the not-so-prompt response.

To answer some of the questions below:

Flour type: caputo 00

Dough recipe:

flour: 465g
water: 293g
salt: 10.71g
preferment 18.62g

thickness factor is .08 for a 12" pie

The starter is 100% hydration (equal weight flour and water), and I just realized that I have 50% in my calculator, not sure that will make that big of a difference, by probably yielded a slightly more moist dough.

The flour, preferment, salt, and water were mixed together into a rough looking dough ball in a Kitchenaid mixer on speed 2, for 3-5 minutes. Once this was complete, I let the dough sit for roughly 15 minutes before firing back up the mixer on speed 2, for another 15 minutes. Once this was complete, I let the dough bench rise for 17 hours at a temperature range of 75-81 degrees F. The dough easily doubled in size by this time, and I attempted to ball the dough; this is where I ran into all of my issues. I was completely unable to get any sort of skin created with the doughballs, as they were all highly sticky, and would just tear back open whenever I tried to tuck it under itself. I did my best to ball them, and then placed them into my dough containers to allow them to rise again on the counter.

The second rise turned out to be much too long, by the time I got home from work and fired up the Blackstone, the dough had already fallen apart. It was soft in texture and extremely pliable. Picking the dough up by one end would result in it heading towards gravity and eventually tearing itself apart. I have some photos that I'll post once I get them uploaded to my PC. I tried to save the dough, but there was no hope, it had been overproofed and whatever gluten development that I had was completely gone. I'm used to a cold fermentation, so I've never encountered an overproofing.

I'm really shooting for the satin finish that I see all over these pages. I never expected Neapolitan dough to be so much different than NY style, but it hasn't been easy at all for me to pick up on. Going to keep practicing. Sadly, it breaks my heart to toss away dough after a failed attempt.

Offline AustinSpartan

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Re: New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2014, 09:46:00 PM »
Here's the balled post-proof photo. It's quite ugly at this point, and there was no saving her.  :'(

Offline Iowamcnabb

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Re: New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2014, 10:00:17 PM »
Mine is like glue with 68% hydration after the kneading, as said before the strech & folds helps a lot !

You can also dip your finger into the bag of flour before handling the dough.




How do you like 68 percent, Sub?   I bumped mine up to 65 from 63 and have been pleased so far

Offline parallei

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Re: New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2014, 11:56:29 PM »
Here's the balled post-proof photo. It's quite ugly at this point, and there was no saving her.  :'(

If it is not to late, form it into a small loaf, let it rise (if it can) and bake breadzza. ;D  It has worked for me....

Offline sub

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Re: New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2014, 02:57:37 AM »

How do you like 68 percent, Sub?   I bumped mine up to 65 from 63 and have been pleased so far

Iit's great, try once !  the crumb gets more thin and delicate with a  honeycomb structure, it's like eating a marshmallow.



Offline mitchjg

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Re: New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2014, 10:21:54 AM »
Sorry for the not-so-prompt response.

To answer some of the questions below:

Flour type: caputo 00

Dough recipe:

flour: 465g
water: 293g
salt: 10.71g
preferment 18.62g

thickness factor is .08 for a 12" pie

The starter is 100% hydration (equal weight flour and water), and I just realized that I have 50% in my calculator, not sure that will make that big of a difference, by probably yielded a slightly more moist dough.

The flour, preferment, salt, and water were mixed together into a rough looking dough ball in a Kitchenaid mixer on speed 2, for 3-5 minutes. Once this was complete, I let the dough sit for roughly 15 minutes before firing back up the mixer on speed 2, for another 15 minutes. Once this was complete, I let the dough bench rise for 17 hours at a temperature range of 75-81 degrees F. The dough easily doubled in size by this time, and I attempted to ball the dough; this is where I ran into all of my issues. I was completely unable to get any sort of skin created with the doughballs, as they were all highly sticky, and would just tear back open whenever I tried to tuck it under itself. I did my best to ball them, and then placed them into my dough containers to allow them to rise again on the counter.

The second rise turned out to be much too long, by the time I got home from work and fired up the Blackstone, the dough had already fallen apart. It was soft in texture and extremely pliable. Picking the dough up by one end would result in it heading towards gravity and eventually tearing itself apart. I have some photos that I'll post once I get them uploaded to my PC. I tried to save the dough, but there was no hope, it had been overproofed and whatever gluten development that I had was completely gone. I'm used to a cold fermentation, so I've never encountered an overproofing.

I'm really shooting for the satin finish that I see all over these pages. I never expected Neapolitan dough to be so much different than NY style, but it hasn't been easy at all for me to pick up on. Going to keep practicing. Sadly, it breaks my heart to toss away dough after a failed attempt.

Your preferment was at about 4% of the total flour.  With a room temperature of 75-81, let's call it 78.
Take a look at the chart that Craig put together here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0
You will see that at 4% starter and a room temperature of 78, the total fermentation time is about 15 hours.

By the time you tried to ball the dough, you were already fully fermented or more.
Then, you said you left it too long after that.  So, the problem seems to be a very over fermented dough.
Next time, my suggestion is to cut back on the preferment, time, temperature in some combination and Craig's chart should help with that.
If you want to stick to the same room temperature, then you can see (for example) from the chart that you need less than 1% starter for a 24 hour dough.


Good luck!

Mitch
Mitch

Offline AustinSpartan

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Re: New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2014, 02:49:17 PM »
Your preferment was at about 4% of the total flour.  With a room temperature of 75-81, let's call it 78.
Take a look at the chart that Craig put together here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0
You will see that at 4% starter and a room temperature of 78, the total fermentation time is about 15 hours.

By the time you tried to ball the dough, you were already fully fermented or more.
Then, you said you left it too long after that.  So, the problem seems to be a very over fermented dough.
Next time, my suggestion is to cut back on the preferment, time, temperature in some combination and Craig's chart should help with that.
If you want to stick to the same room temperature, then you can see (for example) from the chart that you need less than 1% starter for a 24 hour dough.


Good luck!

Mitch

Mitch -

Really appreciate your in depth assessment of my errors. I recently came across Craig's post with fermentation times over different temperatures, unfortunately, it was a couple days too late. I'll take another stab at my Neapolitan, when I have the time to pull off a single day bulk + ball + cook.


Offline Korinthos

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Re: New to Neapolitan - sticky dough?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2015, 07:17:11 AM »
Sorry for the not-so-prompt response.

To answer some of the questions below:

Flour type: caputo 00

Dough recipe:

flour: 465g
water: 293g
salt: 10.71g
preferment 18.62g

thickness factor is .08 for a 12" pie

The starter is 100% hydration (equal weight flour and water), and I just realized that I have 50% in my calculator, not sure that will make that big of a difference, by probably yielded a slightly more moist dough.

The flour, preferment, salt, and water were mixed together into a rough looking dough ball in a Kitchenaid mixer on speed 2, for 3-5 minutes. Once this was complete, I let the dough sit for roughly 15 minutes before firing back up the mixer on speed 2, for another 15 minutes. Once this was complete, I let the dough bench rise for 17 hours at a temperature range of 75-81 degrees F. The dough easily doubled in size by this time, and I attempted to ball the dough; this is where I ran into all of my issues. I was completely unable to get any sort of skin created with the doughballs, as they were all highly sticky, and would just tear back open whenever I tried to tuck it under itself. I did my best to ball them, and then placed them into my dough containers to allow them to rise again on the counter.

The second rise turned out to be much too long, by the time I got home from work and fired up the Blackstone, the dough had already fallen apart. It was soft in texture and extremely pliable. Picking the dough up by one end would result in it heading towards gravity and eventually tearing itself apart. I have some photos that I'll post once I get them uploaded to my PC. I tried to save the dough, but there was no hope, it had been overproofed and whatever gluten development that I had was completely gone. I'm used to a cold fermentation, so I've never encountered an overproofing.

I'm really shooting for the satin finish that I see all over these pages. I never expected Neapolitan dough to be so much different than NY style, but it hasn't been easy at all for me to pick up on. Going to keep practicing. Sadly, it breaks my heart to toss away dough after a failed attempt.


I believe that the problem may arise from overmixing. 2nd speed at Kitchenaid, for 15 minutes, how many revolutions is this...