Author Topic: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.  (Read 583 times)

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Offline Morudy

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Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« on: July 08, 2015, 08:44:33 AM »
Hello Everyone!

I'm new to the forum but have been reading (and gaining a huge amount of knowledge) from here for quite some time.. so initially I just want to say thanks to everyone for contributing and sharing their experiences. I'm sure you're all aware, you'll be helping many many more people make pizza than just the members of this forum.

I've been making neapolitan pizza for a fair few years now, using what is a horribly small 1 pizza portable wood oven (not sure how i've stuck it out so long). I've always been happy enough with my dough, and have used the same process for a while

Anyway, I went to Naples recently and felt the pizza was just on another level, so i'm trying to tweak my dough to be more Neapolitan. In doing this, i feel its almost revealed some things that were going wrong with my initial dough.

I used to bulk ferment for 24 hours and then ball for around 8 more hours before use, all at room temp (here in UK probably around 16c). I now want to do a shorter bulk ferment (4 hours) and ball ferment for 20 hours (so a 24 hour dough). Other than maybe Da micheles, that seemed to be more in line with what the neapolitans do.

Since doing this, i've really struggled and found it hard to handle the dough balls. they've been overprooving i think (still taste ok though) as they are just too full of air, bubbling up and feel too light in my hand....even though i feel i'm using only a tiny amount of yeast (cake yeast). I keep on reducing the amount of yeast but crazily its not really changing. I actually held some dough back and and let it bulk ferment longer and in balls for shorter time and it came out similar to my old dough, much better to handle.... so i feel i may have been overprooving in my bulk the whole time. Does anyone feel the below receipe should overproove that much? I was surprised. or does anyone else find it difficult handling balls once they've been balled for a long time at room temp? Should i just get used to having a harder time handling the dough?

Caputo blue
63% hydration
3% salt
0.05% CY

24 hour total ferment at around 16c

Few pics of my pizza attached (I hope)

Cheers,

Morudy



« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 10:37:55 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline sub

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2015, 10:48:37 AM »
Hi and welcome Morudy

You should not have problem to handle a 63% hydration dough, try a shorter fermentation (12 to 18 hours in total) it will work better.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2015, 12:10:43 PM »
I would be really surprised if 0.05%CY for 24 hours at 16C/61F wasn't severely under-fermented.

Here is an example of Marlon using 2X as much yeast (0.1%) for 26 hours (2+24) at 65F/18C: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21730.0
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Offline Morudy

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2015, 12:30:52 PM »
Yes that was my thought too. I was honestly expecting it to be way underfermented.  I have been really suprised and i'm totally stumped.

I'd seen this set of pizzas from Marlon (very nice indeed) and so made me even more baffled about why my own quantities seem so out.

Mixing time maybe? Maybe the yeast is getting too active during the mix? no clue  ???



Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2015, 12:58:55 PM »
Extended mixing time and rests before fermenting can certainly speed things up, but I wouldn't think by that much.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline Morudy

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2015, 01:24:59 PM »
To be honest, I had changed my mixing pattern. Extending it by about 5 mins and added a couple of rest periods (which i felt improved the dough a lot prior to bulk fermentation) but as you say I hadn't expected that to make too much difference to the total fermentation time... certainly not to that extent.

Suppose i'll do some more tests... never a bad thing.... it's just those measurements were so far away from what i've seen on here and would expect for a 24 hour room temp dough.

I think with me switching from a short ferment - once balled - up to a longer one... wondered if anyone else had noticed a big difference in handling.

Thanks...

M

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2015, 01:51:56 PM »
I don't use CY, but when I use IDY at 24 hours, my results are consistent with Marlon's at the standard CY <-> IDY conversion rate.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline David Esq.

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2015, 04:43:40 PM »
Its all about time an temperature. Have you taken the dough temp after mixing? And what is your room temp?

Offline Morudy

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2015, 05:12:42 PM »
Ive not taken the dough temp to be honest...always trusted my eyes and touch in that respect (although maybe if i'm fiddling too much with rest periods and time i should start doing that)  Room temp was somewhere between 60-65f. cold tap water

You think maybe if the dough is too hot after mixing it could set the speed of fermentation off too quickly? Surely not by as much as i'm seeing though?

I notice the cake yeast i get from my supplier says 'high activity' on the side. I've always used this but wondered if anyone knew if there are different levels for different commercial baking processes?

Fearing a very light dough after my original 24 hour bulk prooving method was hiding dough that was essentially over-fermented prior to me balling up. I always thought it felt good, handled well, cooked well and tasted good though so..... ???

doubting my dough abilities..... thats why I love making pizza though  :D


Offline sub

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2015, 05:51:17 PM »
Ive not taken the dough temp to be honest...always trusted my eyes and touch in that respect (although maybe if i'm fiddling too much with rest periods and time i should start doing that)  Room temp was somewhere between 60-65f. cold tap water

You think maybe if the dough is too hot after mixing it could set the speed of fermentation off too quickly? Surely not by as much as i'm seeing though?



Yes I think your dough end up too hot,  the temp after kneading shoud be between 21 and 23C

One degree increase the yeast activity by 10% 



Offline Morudy

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2015, 06:16:49 PM »
Thanks Sub!

1 degree increases activity by 10%?? right, assuming that may be the problem then.

Think i'll buy a temp probe and also test the same dough with slightly different mix times.

I'll be sure to report back and share my findings.  :chef:

M

Offline Morudy

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2015, 05:14:03 PM »
Ok Cake yeast users... help please??

Done a few different mixes tonight with no success. Massively over-fermented as before.

2 pics attached are of two different mixes. The better looking balls (which are still way over and were HORRIBLE to handle) were 0.8% yeast over 24hours. the bubble fest were 0.5% yeast over 36 hours. Both I think should be way under at this stage. Both were done with gentle mixes with what must be a low dough temp.

are there different types of cake yeast?? mine reads 'high activity yeast' but is the only type my supplier does. I assumed all cake yeast must be the same?

Any thoughts pizza helpers?

Thanks!



« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 08:01:57 PM by Pete-zza »

Online vtsteve

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2015, 12:44:00 AM »
Caputo blue
63% hydration
3% salt
0.05% CY

24 hour total ferment at around 16c

2 pics attached are of two different mixes. The better looking balls (which are still way over and were HORRIBLE to handle) were 0.8% yeast over 24hours. the bubble fest were 0.5% yeast over 36 hours. Both I think should be way under at this stage. Both were done with gentle mixes with what must be a low

So... did you use 0.05% / 0.08%...  or 0.5% /0.8% ?? How about the actual gram weights of all your ingredients (cut from the dough calculator)?
In grams we trust.

Offline Morudy

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2015, 01:57:43 AM »
Oops Sorry Steve.

Yes, was 0.05 and 0.08 respectively.

4kg Flour
2480g water (cold from tap) 62%
120g salt
2g cake yeast

16c room temp for fermentation (not controlled) fluctuating probably between 14c-21c

Offline schold

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2015, 06:31:35 AM »
That's one fermentative environment you got there. Well, I suggest you just skip the yeast - you don't need it.
Cooking is not a recipe, it's a philosophy - unless it's pastry, then it's chemistry.

- Marco Pierre White

Online vtsteve

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Re: Tweaks to my NP dough.... questions.
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2015, 08:20:07 AM »
Let's assume (from your results) that it's spending more time close 21c; then you're at 0.08% CY for 24 hours, and about half that for 36 hours -- so you were in the neighborhood of 6-10x what's required. Go low, and if it's looking underfermented as bake time approaches, warm it up.

Member Tampa also noted that the chart underestimates the power of CY at the low end. You may need the 'dissolve 1g yeast in 99g water' route to get the dose low enough (one gram of the solution = .01g yeast in .99g water).

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg353567#msg353567
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 01:33:03 PM by vtsteve »
In grams we trust.


 

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