Author Topic: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted  (Read 1147 times)

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Offline Pizzaposer

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GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« on: May 14, 2016, 04:40:57 PM »
"The fall from grace is steep and swift, and when you land, it does not make a sound, because you are alone."

So I've been lurking on the forum since June 2013 and got the Blackstone in July 2013.  I began using Glutenboy's recipe and modified it to the the Blackstone using two thirds 00 and one third high gluten flour.  My typical composition was:

66% 00 (Penn Mac)
34% High Gluten (Penn Mac)
61% H2O
.28% IDY
2.5% Morton's kosher

I religiously follow the mixing instruction for Glutenboy's dough and have great results. I use Kenji's NY pizza sauce recipe and Bel Giosso mozz, that I really prefer, and dabble with Mike's Hot Honey and hot prosciutto. Although I live in Maryland we go "home" to Pittsburgh at least four times a year and I have access to some fantastic pepperoni and other meats from Parma Sausage Co.  Eventually we move to Sclafani tomatoes with a pinch or two of salt. The pies look fantastic and taste (well below fantastic, but) really good. Everybody is happy! The family and friends are continually impressed.  I am a pizza God!  Or maybe a pizza god-like creature?  Nearly three years (and two BS paint jobs) later, I am starting to feel my oats about the pizzas. It is time to step-up. I figure I have nearly all the skills needed to attempt a Craig.   I've seen vandev do it (props bro).  How hard can it be?

I get the Ischia and (other, can't remember) cultures for Christmas and start to get it ready in February.  By mid-month the culture is regularly doubling and has a relatively nice smell.  I put in in the fridge until about two weeks ago.  A week before my bake I take it back out and started feeding until it is doubling with regularity.  I jump on the Forum and go straight to "The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage."  Oh, did I forget to mention that I got that I also got the Kitchenmaid 7-quart Pro-line mixer in anticipation my upcoming pizza domination?

Following the instructions, I used:

100% 00 (Penn Mac)
62.5% H20
3% Morton's kosher
1.3 Ischia Culture

I used this formula as my measuring point for 6 250-gram balls. I did a twenty-four hour RT bulk and twenty-four hour balled RT rise, both at about 66 degrees.... turned on the BS and let it get up to about 840 bottom and 860 top for at least 20 minutes (BTW I do not have a Chauflector and do not have bearings).

"I am Jack's complete lack of surprise."

I totally screwed up my first Neo bake and I don't know how or why. 

As I begin opening the balls I notice that I do not have the consistency of dough anywhere near that I regularly see at I see at 2 Amys, Don Antonio Starita, Pupatella's, or Bufalina (I travel for work a lot).  I know that I cannot expect anything near their level of dough but I hoped that there would be the ease of opening that I constantly see.  I can also tell from years of pizzamaking.com browsing that my dough is nowhere near the easy opening dough of others on the forum.  The dough is harder to open than my normal balls and I can't get the uniformity of thickness that I usually do.  I used the craptastic "fresh" mozz from Costco and "San Marzano" brand tomatoes and all of the pizzas taste like wet paper.  I know the toppings weren't optimal but that cannot account for the thiness and lack of taste in the dough.

Why am I a failure?  Please let me know what additional information you may need to provide help you would be so kind to give.

Here are some pics. Please do not chastise me for orientation if they are wrong.  I spent a half hour practicing in the orientation post before I began.

1.  Underdone pepperoni
2.  Malformed mushroom (my wife loves canned mushrooms)
3.  My dough balls
4.  Blackstone launch
5.  Cornicione

Tomorrow is attempt No. 2 with 3% culture and, I have to confess, about a quarter teaspoon of IDY.  I was so worried about the oven spring that I couldn't help myself.  Any suggestions for opening?  Any tips for next dough?

Thanks-- Robb


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2016, 04:53:15 PM »
I wish I could go back and edit my old posts. I'm using more like 1.7-1.9% culture now (depending on the time of year). Partly this is because my culture seems to be a bit less active, but partly because I like the dough a bit more fermented.

With 24 hours in balls, your dough should open like butter. I don't know what Penn Mac '00' is but if not, change flour.

IMO, the washer and chauflector mods are worth doing if NP is your goal. Together, the will take you 5 minutes and cost $4.

If you post your entire workflow, we might be able to help more with the dough.

I see a lot of things I like in that pepperoni pie.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Pizzaposer

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2016, 06:00:46 PM »
I wish I could go back and edit my old posts.

Tx Craig,

Yeah,  I wish that I could go back and see Donna Waz@#@ from high school but my wife wouldn't like it.  :-*

Here is my workflow:

Ingredients

100% 00 (Penn Mac) -- This is 00 sold at Pennsylvanian Macaroni Co. in Pittsburgh.  I love them and they have the best employees, cheeses and meats. I know that some others don't have the same opinion and that they sell DMP as LDMP so I am a bit wary but I'm pretty sure they just buying 00 in bulk and putting it in their own bags.  They have been a Pittsburgh institution for years and I would hate to hear they have sub-quality 00.
62.5% H20
3% Morton's kosher
1.3 Ischia Culture

I mix the H2O, salt water and culture for about a minute by hand; throw in 2/3 flour and get the Kitchenaid going at speed 1; let that go for about 2 minutes and start adding flour for the next five minutes; let the dough rest for 10 minutes.  After ten minutes I set a timer and do a stretch and fold every six to seven minutes (about 5-6 times total) until I get a ball that is very smooth after stretching.

I neglected to mention that I did two test runs and never got a dough like vandev got here.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=32091.0;attach=185458;image

I then place in a rubbermaid container at RT (which is now @ 67 degrees; we love to spend the spring with the AC off until the DC summers consume us with heat and high humidity) and let it sit on my counter for 24 hours.  After that, tight balls are put into quart deli containers for up to twenty four hours.  I usually don't get home from work until 7:30 or 8:30 so ferment and cooks times have to bend to my workload.

Pizza day starts with mozz and sauce prep.  The balls are brought outside and left in the deli containers until I am ready to make the next pie.  The dough is stretched, placed on a wood peel and then topped and launched.  The balls are never outside for more than 1 hour.  I wish I had more descriptive memory but I think that is about it.  I bake at the highest my BS will go and turn the heat down a bit after I launch so as not to burn the top.

Here is a picture of a my last set-up (with way too much bench flour) and my last up-skirt.  I'm not sure whether you will agree or not, but I think the underside of that pizza looks pretty good, but it tasted like glue paste. 

Pls let me know if I am missing anything crucial in my workflow.  Best--Robb

Offline Pizzaposer

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2016, 10:12:26 AM »
For more on my process as it stands today:

I had to work late Friday so the balls did not get made until about 10 a.m. Saturday.  They were balled about 8 a.m. this morning which will give them only about a 22 hour bulk and 10 hour balled ferment.

I took a nap yesterday; which is normally a very stupid thing for me to do because that means I will not be able to fall asleep until very late.  Anyway, I was up at about 1:30 a.m, and come down to the kitchen and notice that the lid has blown off my Rubbermaid container and the dough is about to spill on the counter.  I transfer the dough into another, larger, Rubbermaid container but forget to take a picture of it.  I was not expecting this because I've read many times that I would see not much rise in my bulk RT ferment and it was VERY cold here in MD last night, and I am too cheap and stubborn to have the heat on.

This morning I get up and find that the dough seems to have risen WAY too much.  I knew last night that something was wrong but hoped for the best.  Judging from the pictures I've seen one the forum from Craig, Norma, vendev, and many others it is WAY too active.  Seriously, I put less than 1/8th tsp of ADY in with the 3% culture!

SO, I'm assuming I already have another failure.  I am going to make a go of it and see how they come out this evening.  I will try to post again tonight and show the outcome.  Any pointers would be appreciated.

Pics are:
1.  The container from which the dough escaped and the new container.
2.  The size of my bubbles.
3.  The flour I am using.
4.  The size and weight of my dough.
5.  The dough balls (with bubbles already forming).

Please excuse the quality of the pictures. I had all the lights on but it is very cloudy here today.

I'm off to Home Depot and Walmart to get a chauflector and some bearings....  Robb

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2016, 11:46:24 AM »
I think you may have purchased flour that is not suitable for pizza.

On the Pennmac website, the Caputo 00 Pasta Flour is described as:

http://www.pennmac.com/items/4303//Pasta-Flour-Caputo-Tipo-OO-

“Measured flour with 1st extraction starches and resistant gluten. Mixing with water creates a shine and consistent mixtures, with an extraordinary final result”

Not much else to help figure out exactly what it is.  But, now go over to brickovenbaker.com (they also repackage Caputo):

http://brickovenbaker.com/ingredients/caputo-pasta-gnocchi-00-flour-12-lbs

They describe the Pasta and Gnocchi 00 flour as:
“measured flour with first extraction starches and resistant gluten. Mixing it with water creates shiny and consistent mixtures, with an extraordinary final result.:

Now go over to Caputo’s website:
“Milled specifically for use in fresh pasta doughs and gnocchi”
http://caputoflour.com/portfolio_item/00-pasta-fresca-gnocchi/

and look at the Spec Sheet:
http://caputoflour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/00-Pasta_Gnocchi-Flour-SPECS.pdf

I don’t know enough about flour specs to be specific about the issue.  But, for example, the falling number is lower than the Pizzeria flour. 

Hopefully, the flour spec experts can weigh in but it appears the flour you are using is not flour that may not be particularly suitable for pizza.  It appears to be designed for a different specialty purpose and that may be helping drive poor results for you.


Mitch

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Offline Pizzaposer

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2016, 01:05:56 PM »
I think you may have purchased flour that is not suitable for pizza.

On the Pennmac website, the Caputo 00 Pasta Flour is described as:

http://www.pennmac.com/items/4303//Pasta-Flour-Caputo-Tipo-OO-

“Measured flour with 1st extraction starches and resistant gluten. Mixing with water creates a shine and consistent mixtures, with an extraordinary final result”

Not much else to help figure out exactly what it is.  But, now go over to brickovenbaker.com (they also repackage Caputo):

http://brickovenbaker.com/ingredients/caputo-pasta-gnocchi-00-flour-12-lbs

They describe the Pasta and Gnocchi 00 flour as:
“measured flour with first extraction starches and resistant gluten. Mixing it with water creates shiny and consistent mixtures, with an extraordinary final result.:

Now go over to Caputo’s website:
“Milled specifically for use in fresh pasta doughs and gnocchi”
http://caputoflour.com/portfolio_item/00-pasta-fresca-gnocchi/

and look at the Spec Sheet:
http://caputoflour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/00-Pasta_Gnocchi-Flour-SPECS.pdf

I don’t know enough about flour specs to be specific about the issue.  But, for example, the falling number is lower than the Pizzeria flour. 

Hopefully, the flour spec experts can weigh in but it appears the flour you are using is not flour that may not be particularly suitable for pizza.  It appears to be designed for a different specialty purpose and that may be helping drive poor results for you.

 ^^^

Mitch,

Thanks.  Wow.  I think you are right on the money.  I know nothing about the specs either but if you go to the Caputo website, it seems that what I have been purchasing is recommended for pasta doughs and gnocchi!!

I love gnocchi but I've got 15 lbs of this stuff.  This is a little deflating.  I thought I was getting a pretty good deal on 00 pizzeria Caputo (That $6.95 price on the container is $2.00 more than if you just buy a 5 lb bag of this flour at Penn Mac).  It is sold in Penn Mac's pizza section.  I should have done more delving.  This thing is though; it was working great when I was using 66% of this stuff along with 34% High Gluten.  It wasn't getting anything near Neo but it worked well for the faux Neo/NY hybrids I have been making.  I hope someone can chime in and tell me what the specs mean and how far from the ideal flour I am with this stuff.

I feel like a bit of an ijit.  I'm not sure whether to continue with this it or just mix it with some other flour and use it for oven baked NY.

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2016, 02:12:51 PM »
One key difference between the Pizzeria and pasta flours is that the pasta flour is much weaker (low W). This would suggest a short fermentation might be better. You might try using more yeast and a more intensive mixing, and limit fermentation to ~8 hours.

The stock VPN formula may be a good place to start: http://www.pizzanapoletana.org/public/pdf/VPN%20disciplinare%20english.pdf
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Pizzaposer

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2016, 03:09:42 PM »
One key difference between the Pizzeria and pasta flours is that the pasta flour is much weaker (low W). This would suggest a short fermentation might be better. You might try using more yeast and a more intensive mixing, and limit fermentation to ~8 hours.

The stock VPN formula may be a good place to start: http://www.pizzanapoletana.org/public/pdf/VPN%20disciplinare%20english.pdf

Thanx Craig,

Sounds like a plan.  I will do that next week.  An 8 hour dough (at least until this flour is gone) will make my workflow a lot easier too.  Do you think you'd increase the preferment percentage much because of the limited time?

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2016, 03:42:03 PM »
Yes, you will need to increase it A LOT. Perhaps to the point where it will cause problems. Sourdough may not be the best choice for an 8 hour dough with weak flour. I'd probably suggest IDY - maybe add some culture to help the flavor. I can't give you much guidance in that respect however. This table can help you find a starting point for using SD at various time/temp combinations: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2016, 05:20:03 PM »
LOL!  That's hilarious!  That table is exactly where I started after getting the cultures.  I've been reading and trying to plan it for about three months!  I finally settled into doing a 48 hour dough because you have been doing the same and I figured that I would time the beginning of my Neo adventure to coincide with the temperatures on the table.  I figured this time of May would be perfect to start with the ambient temperatures I was shooting for and then I would look to getting some sort of cooler to lower the bulk rise temp. Let me be the hundredth person to thank you for doing the math that I could never, ever...ever, do.

I will go back to the table to see what I can do with it, my imperfect flour, and a little bit of unwarranted chutzpah.


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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2016, 08:11:20 PM »
Given the flour you are trying to use and the fact that you are inexperienced with SD, I would echo/emphasize the suggestion Craig made to use IDY and skip the sourdough starter for now.  Better, in my mind, for you to get more grounded as to whether or not the flour is going to be usable for you. 

The more variables you have, the less you will know "why" something is happening, be it bad or good.  KISS until you know more.
Mitch

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2016, 08:26:06 PM »
Given the flour you are trying to use and the fact that you are inexperienced with SD, I would echo/emphasize the suggestion Craig made to use IDY and skip the sourdough starter for now.  Better, in my mind, for you to get more grounded as to whether or not the flour is going to be usable for you. 

The more variables you have, the less you will know "why" something is happening, be it bad or good.  KISS until you know more.

Ok, I buy that and take it in the friendly fashion that it was intended... and thanks taking the time to give your opinion.  I value it and you are probably right; KISS should be the way to go for now.  That does NOT mean, however that I have to give up.  I just means the process will be slower.  To that end, I purchased a 10lb repackaging of blue bag Caputo today.  I am going to use the old flour for some VPN 8 hour doughs and will mix it with other flour for NY pies in the oven.  I will try simple (not really) VPN for the new batch.  Last night's pizza did not look good and was WAY too active, but it really, really had that tang in the crust.  My kids didn't notice, of course, but my wife and I both did.  They were heavier (270g) than I usually make and smaller, but they opened far better than last week's.  Here are some very poor picks.  The sun was behind the clouds and it was windy and cold.  Also, adults didn't show so the planned kale and sausage and pear and brie became pepperoni and mushroom or sausage for the kids.

Pics are:

1. Temp before launch (remember it was windy and cold!)
2. Tomato pie.
3. Mushroom.  I think I already mentioned that my wife loves canned mushrooms.  Probably because the serve them at Mineo's in Pittsburgh; our favorite pizza place as kids (and the name of our dog.)
4. Hellboy clone with hot cap, Mike's Hot Honey and a few pieces of sausage.


Online mitchjg

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2016, 08:31:58 PM »
Those pizzas look pretty good!
How did they taste and how was the texture?
Mitch

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2016, 09:10:00 PM »
Those pizzas look pretty good!
How did they taste and how was the texture?

Thanks!!

The dough tasted fantastic.  The pizzas were good but once I found out it was just kids coming I had to make Kenji's NY pizza sauce.  Don't get me wrong, his sauce is great but it's not Neo.  My wife and I lived in Naples for three years and we REALLY miss that taste, so I try to use it most of the time.  Unfortunately our kids and their friends greatly prefer the sugar and oregano in the NY sauce.  I'll convert them eventually.

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2016, 09:11:04 PM »
I forgot to mention.  The texture was very good but not anywhere Neo.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 12:33:24 PM by Pizzaposer »

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2016, 09:23:28 PM »
Looking good!!
Bob

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2016, 09:36:53 PM »
Do you know how hot the stone was and how long the bake was?
Mitch

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2016, 07:33:13 AM »
Do you know how hot the stone was and how long the bake was?

Mitch,

I'm pretty sure the stone fluctuated between 830 and 850 the entire time.   The top was about 10-20 degrees lower this time.  I don't know why.   It's usually higher. 

Every time you ask a question, I realize I've forgotten something else.  No, sorry, I forgot to time the bakes.  I am certain that none of them was over two minutes, but I can't be more specific.

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2016, 07:37:09 AM »
Looking good!!

Thanks!  I appreciate the compliment, but I think my picture taking skills are helping obscure my pizza making flaws.

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2016, 10:29:30 AM »
These look like the may be good for dough balls.  I saw them on Deal News.  $11.52 for a dozen.  I have twenty deli containers but somebody else might be interested.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/44785855?u1=Vnpzb1hnb0tNcTBBQWNFT1FFZ0FBQUR5&oid=368707.1&wmlspartner=NKa3hZyYoHA&sourceid=21654882662761664033&affillinktype=10&veh=aff

I can't seem to make it a link, but if you cut and paste it in your browser it will take you right to the page.

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2016, 12:31:20 PM »
One key difference between the Pizzeria and pasta flours is that the pasta flour is much weaker (low W). This would suggest a short fermentation might be better. You might try using more yeast and a more intensive mixing, and limit fermentation to ~8 hours.

The stock VPN formula may be a good place to start: http://www.pizzanapoletana.org/public/pdf/VPN%20disciplinare%20english.pdf

Craig,

I'm working from home tomorrow and might whip up a batch of dough per the VPN instructions you gave me.  Do you really think I need to mix the dough for 20 minutes as instructed?  That seems a bit much.

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2016, 07:01:16 PM »
Craig,

I'm working from home tomorrow and might whip up a batch of dough per the VPN instructions you gave me.  Do you really think I need to mix the dough for 20 minutes as instructed?  That seems a bit much.

No probably not. Definitely more than needed for a 24 hour+ fermentation though.
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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2016, 08:08:09 PM »
No probably not. Definitely more than needed for a 24 hour+ fermentation though.

Thanx Craig,

I think I am going to give it about half that time.

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2016, 10:12:26 PM »
I've been working non-stop with a brief due on Tuesday (goodbye Memorial Day Weekend >:() so I haven't posted an update but I wanted to share this from last weekend.  If you are anywhere near MD you know that we have been looking around for Noah because we're thinking that we might have to buy options on that whole Arc thing.  In hope the weather would improve I started getting my starter together for last weekend.  I was going to try the VPN instructions that Craig and Mitch thought were a good starting point but I planned to cheat just a little and throw in some starter with the IDY because the last bake with starter tasted so good.  Well Friday and Saturday were a total drown-out and I promised the kids pizza, so I went to TJs.  Three bags of TJ's 1lb dough went into the Kitchenaid with some starter (two tablespoons?  I didn't weigh it) for less than two minutes and then sat on the counter (immediately balled into six balls ) for about four or five hours.  They were baked on steel at 550/convection.  I may be stupid, and my wife wasn't there to help me with the tasting, but I really thought the dough tasted much better.  I could be imagining the whole thing.  Anyway here are some pics:

(1) Simple kitchen setup
(2) Cherry tomato
(3) the gritty underbelly of the city
(4) egg
(5) pep
(6) pep and egg

So what do you think.  Would the starter make that much of a difference?  Am I imagining things?  I've got to tell ya, I don't think I am.  I'm sure someone had done this before.  Anyway I'm moving on back to the VPN attempts, hopefully next weekend. now that the weather has gone from torrential downpour to unbearable humid. ;D

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Re: GOT WAY TOO COCKY -- Help Wanted
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2016, 10:17:10 PM »
Ugh.  That was a terribly blurry pic of the egg.  Here's another one: