Author Topic: The Blackstone Challenge  (Read 18302 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #80 on: July 15, 2013, 10:49:21 PM »
That looks tasty Paul.  Very vibrant and fresh.  How was the crust?


Offline parallei

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2013, 11:13:10 PM »
That looks tasty Paul.  Very vibrant and fresh.  How was the crust?

I don't believe I've attempted a full blown Craig method (1.8% starter, 48 hrs at 65F, ball at 24 hrs) for quite some time.  The crust tasted wonderful, maybe a bit more sour than some of the starter based pies I've been making lately.  I guess because of the longer ferment. We liked it quite a bit.

Tender, but not as tender as the 24 hr room temp IDY/poolish dough I made a last week ( 0.025% IDY at 72-75F for 24 hrs.).  I haven't a clue as to why that might be.   As you can see, this starter based dough had a pretty good spring too.  Both this dough, and the poolish based dough, were Caputo at about 62% HR.  Both were made by hand, and both were easy to handle.  This pie went about 70 seconds in the 2Stone. 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2013, 11:22:26 PM »
Thanks Paul.  I don't know either, but I've always noticed in my own pies, that when the sourness starts to come in, the texture becomes a bit more dense/heavy.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #83 on: July 16, 2013, 09:24:10 AM »
I don't believe I've attempted a full blown Craig method (1.8% starter, 48 hrs at 65F, ball at 24 hrs) for quite some time.  The crust tasted wonderful, maybe a bit more sour than some of the starter based pies I've been making lately.  I guess because of the longer ferment. We liked it quite a bit.

Tender, but not as tender as the 24 hr room temp IDY/poolish dough I made a last week ( 0.025% IDY at 72-75F for 24 hrs.).  I haven't a clue as to why that might be.   As you can see, this starter based dough had a pretty good spring too.  Both this dough, and the poolish based dough, were Caputo at about 62% HR.  Both were made by hand, and both were easy to handle.  This pie went about 70 seconds in the 2Stone.

I've noticed that 72 hour SD (Ischia in my case) is A LOT more sour than 48. It's not a linear increase over the 72 hours. It must really spike after 48. I've also noticed to be noticeably tougher. I think the two go hand in hand. I believe the acids toughen the proteins meaningfully before they start to degrade them.
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Offline parallei

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #84 on: July 16, 2013, 09:44:55 AM »
I've noticed that 72 hour SD (Ischia in my case) is A LOT more sour than 48. It's not a linear increase over the 72 hours. It must really spike after 48. I've also noticed to be noticeably tougher. I think the two go hand in hand. I believe the acids toughen the proteins meaningfully before they start to degrade them.

These pies was made with an Ischia starter also.  For about a year I kept a "homegrown" starter, but I chucked it just the other day.  It never developed as nice a taste as the Ischia.  However, it did leaven well (if that's the right word).

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #85 on: July 16, 2013, 12:01:20 PM »
From the blackstone thread here...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.msg266012.html#msg266012

Quote from: Jackie Tran
...Scott123 and I have been debating whether or not it is possible to replicate one of Craig's wfo pies in a BS.  I said no because of the way the bs bakes with the rotating hearth.  The crust cooks very differently than it would in a wfo.   Now if you disengage the motor and just rotate the hearth/pizza manually as is done in a wfo, you would have a better chance of getting the same leoparding in a wfo or a better chance at replicating Craig's leoparding pattern.  But not with the stock rotisserie engaged.  Forget it...


Bingo....very astute Chau.  And this is why I was inquiring early on about some pics to the inside there and how the burner was mounted, thinking maybe a second burner could be installed on the other side.  :chef:


Bob, I'm not sure a 2nd burner would work.  The main problem I see is the way the crust bakes with the rotating hearth not a lack of heat.  The heat is there, the thermodynamics is different.  I explained it to Scott here...

From reply #740 of the BS thread...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.msg263863.html#msg263863

Quote from: Jackie Tran
...The heat may be there, but the balance and thermodynamics are definitely different.   You are right that great pizza doesn't discriminate where the heat comes from but incorrect if you assume that the BS bakes a pizza the same way a WFO, let alone how an Acunto expertly bakes a pizza.  The way the heat is produced and delivered couldn't be more different in the two.  In my limited knowledge and experience with both the BS and Craig's Acunto, let me just try and explain what I am talking about here. 

Craig's Acunto or any WFO - when he places a pizza in the far side of his oven away from the active fire, you have heat coming from the fire, the ceiling, and the walls, and hearth.  IMO, the balance is as even as you can get in most WFOs.  The pie is left there for 10-20 seconds until leopard spots begin to form on the cornice closest to the fire.  Meanwhile the entire crust undergoes baking and puffs up instantaneously.  At this point, the pizza is manually rotated so that the opposite side is rotate towards the fireside to finish it's bake and then rotated again so that the other sides of the cornice has a chance to bake and leopard.

The BS/2Stone - First off the heat from the hearth and the ceiling away from the heat source isn't even comparable to a well saturated wfo.  Furthermore the BS lacks the heat eminating from the wall opposite the fire.  Next, upon immediate placement of the pizza, a portion of the crust is in the active baking zone and immediate exits while another portion goes into the active baking zone.  I am positve that the temperature between the heating zone and the cooler zone varies more so than in Craig's Acunto.  The crust in the BS, goes through a short active baking phase, then a longer cool down stage, before that same area goes back towards being baked.  So in essences, the crust is superheated (much quicker than in a WFO), then it is cooled and heated again.  This phenomenon occurs to a much lesser extent in a WFO as a WFO provides more even and balance heat all around the pizza all at once.  Not the case in a BS or a 2Stone. 

The pizza is probably baked more evenly and more gently in Craig's Acunto (even at 900F+) compared to the BS.  What I just described to you ALONE will give you a different leoparding pattern even if you were to use the same dough and the pizza made by the same maker.


But if we disengage the the rotisserie motor and just manually rotate the hearth, then we can more closely match the way a pizza is baked in a wfo.  That doesn't guarantee Craig's leoparding but should give us a better chance at it.  It's still a BIG challenge but this could help.   Even if Craig gets his hands on a BS oven, I'm pretty certain he can't replicate the look of his crust with a stock unmodded BS oven.  In order to match the look of his pies from his acunto, I'm pretty certain he would have to ..

-raise the steel plate about 1"
-create an airgap between the hearth and steel plate with washers or dimes.
-use a ceiling heat deflector as I have to balance the heat
-manually rotate the hearth/pizza as he does in his acunto
-and lastly dial in the appropriate temp/heat between the 3 regulators.

Chau
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 12:06:42 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2013, 12:25:47 PM »
With a second burner I am not thinking about additional heat per se. Thinking more of evening/balancing out things that are detracted due to the rotating hearth. Not only for the crust but; most importantly, for the top "leoparding".
You're saying that right now you can actually see the top browning occuring very quickly in the latter stage of the bake...so quickly that a half rotation of the hearth can make for a real juggling act. I'm thinking that your deflector mod hitting the pie from both sides(second burner)would give the predictability/ balance that is going to be needed to hit a Craig pie. This, along with a speeded up turntable sounds to me like maybe not too bad of ideas.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2013, 12:42:09 PM »
With a second burner I am not thinking about additional heat per se. Thinking more of evening/balancing out things that are detracted due to the rotating hearth. Not only for the crust but; most importantly, for the top "leoparding".
You're saying that right now you can actually see the top browning occuring very quickly in the latter stage of the bake...so quickly that a half rotation of the hearth can make for a real juggling act. I'm thinking that your deflector mod hitting the pie from both sides(second burner)would give the predictability/ balance that is going to be needed to hit a Craig pie. This, along with a speeded up turntable sounds to me like maybe not too bad of ideas.

Bob, I think it would compound the problem actually but I really don't know without testing it.   You may be right.  I don't want to discount it.  It's a good idea, just maybe not that easy to mount a 2nd burner and it may not even be necessary.  There's plenty of heat there.  it's just a matter of directing it where we want it to go and dialing in the right amount of heat and rotation.  So yes, it is possible to make really great NP in this thing.  Duplicating a Craig pie is another order of difficulty.  Not only b/c of Craig's skill but mostly b/c each pie is very specific to it's maker.  Does it mean that it's impossible?  No, nothing is impossible.  Very very difficult...yes. 

Chau

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2013, 02:45:24 PM »
You know I wonder if a 60 second pie in a the BS is cooking a small section of the pizza faster than a 60 second one in a WFO. It seems to me that the BS gives more extreme heat to a smaller section of the pizza. I would imagine with a deflector in the BS that temps over 1000F are directly hitting the cornicone on the near side to the flame, while the opposite side is cooking at air temps around 700F, or maybe even less. I would doubt that an Acunto has this big of a difference between the fire side of the pizza and the opposite. Just a theory.

Also, with this same theory I think it more directly applies to the cooking of NY pizza. In a NY oven the heat is being evenly (or close to) applied to the entire pizza. We all know Scott backs a 4 minute pie as the best. But I am beginning to think that this isn't true of the BS. I think it is probably somewhere between 5-6 minutes. The reason is, with the amount of heat that it takes to bake a pizza in 4 minutes in the BS, if that heat was applied to the entire pizza, it would be in the high 2 minute range. I think going to over 5 minutes in the BS will you get that more even bake typical of a NY pizza compared to WFO. Hope that makes sense, I think it goes in line with what you are saying Chau.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2013, 03:10:53 PM »
Jeff, yes indeed the BS cooks a small section of a 60second pie faster than in a traditional wfo.  The heat in the active baking zone (ABZ) is likely well over 1000F.  If you install the heat deflector mod and watch the unbake crust entering this zone, you will see the skin of the cornice "pimple" up or blister before the cornice itself puffs up from the heat.  The actual cornice doesn't even do the majority of it's puffing up until the 2nd or third go around into the ABZ. 

I would imagine with a deflector in the BS that temps over 1000F are directly hitting the cornicone on the near side to the flame, while the opposite side is cooking at air temps around 700F, or maybe even less. I would doubt that an Acunto has this big of a difference between the fire side of the pizza and the opposite. Just a theory.

Yes, I would agree with this.  I mentioned this earlier in reply #85, which goes bake to the original BS thread.

Well whether a 4 min pie or a 2-3min pie or a 5-6 minute pie is best is really all subjective IMO.  I've made some outstanding 1-6min pies with similar crust and crumb characteristics and textures.  I know this may sound like crazy talk but it's true.  It's all in the balance of the dough (the flour & hydration), the fermentation, gluten development, and the bake.   For my particular environment and using my own recipe and ingredients, I prefer a 5min NY pie over a 4min.  Or I like a 4min pie with a 1min reheat after a short rest.  I like the bottoms crispy, I just do.   I do find that the longer bakes tends to dry out the cheese unless you've got Grande dry mozz.  If I had access to that, I would bake longer into the 6minute realm b/c I like a crispy bottom and crust.  But I also use a higher hydration dough.   So again balance.  So yeah, it's all subjective what is best.   

Even NP, a 45s vs a 60s pie is different.  Depending on the specific dough, it will either be better at 45s or 60s or longer.  But you can't say across the board that a 45s pie is superior, etc.   

As far as the BS, we who have the oven, know that it bakes hot.  I would agree that a 3min+ (or high 2min range) bake might be equivalent to a 4min pie in a traditional WFO.   Once Scott gets his BS oven, he will be able to confirm this for us.  I would trust his judgment here over anyone elses concerning NY crust in a BS vs traditional deck oven. 

You can do a 5min bake, but you'd have to adjust the regulators and load at maybe a 600F hearth.   But yeah, everyone's dough, because it's so different will react differently in the oven.   This is were each person has to personally find their own balance with the oven.  This comes with practice and experience of course. 

Not to beat a dead horse, but this is why I emphasize the difficulty in replicate a Craig Pie.  It's a long and arduous process.

Chau
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 03:25:19 PM by Jackie Tran »


Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2013, 03:41:42 PM »
When I talked about 5 minutes relative to 4 minutes I was more referring to achieving the outcome Scott describes. I understand everyone will have a different definition for their own tastes. I just think to achieve Scotts 4 minute Ny pizza will probably take 5 minutes or more in a BS because of the oven differences.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2013, 03:50:30 PM »
When I talked about 5 minutes relative to 4 minutes I was more referring to achieving the outcome Scott describes. I understand everyone will have a different definition for their own tastes. I just think to achieve Scotts 4 minute Ny pizza will probably take 5 minutes or more in a BS because of the oven differences.

I understand Jeff.  I think it will take less but hopefully Scott can give us a comparison of the BS with a deck oven soon.

Offline pizza dr

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2013, 05:18:28 PM »
Jeff, they were done with the heat deflector in place.   Anyone interested in the challenge can use a modded or unmodded BS oven or any oven for that matter.   I have a theory that NP pies are unique to the pie maker and oven.

I'll say... This is almost laughable.  I used Craig's dough, toppings and oven ( and made about 12 of them for practice) and I couldn't even get within sniffing distance.  All I had to do was open the dough, which damn near opens itself, top it and throw it into the oven...  :-D :-D :-D

I have little doubt that you're theory is correct. 

Scot

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2013, 05:24:26 PM »
Thanks Scott.   What I have been saying but try we must!  :P. Craig's pizzas are really good aren't they?  Wish I had me some right now. 

Offline pizza dr

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #94 on: July 16, 2013, 05:32:37 PM »
Tru dat...

The stars are all aligning up for me this weekend.  My first shot at some pies post TPS II tutoring.  Hope I don't fail miserably...

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2013, 05:42:37 PM »
Tru dat...

The stars are all aligning up for me this weekend.  My first shot at some pies post TPS II tutoring.  Hope I don't fail miserably...

You won't.  You were kicking ass at Craigs.   Please post up a few pics here for us.   You will have to make adjustments to your hydration ratio and then some especially if your flour isn't new.   See if you can match his dough consistency above all. 

Offline pizza dr

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #96 on: July 16, 2013, 06:09:06 PM »
Chau

I was thinking the same thing on the hydration.  Craig's 60 % is not what ours would be by any stretch (especially in the heat of the summer).  I'm thinking of bumping up to about 63% ( I"m usually at around 60% hydration normally but no where near what Craig's is texture wise).  It may be a little trickier getting it uploaded and unloaded but I'll make extra.. What do you think?

Scot

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #97 on: July 16, 2013, 07:23:31 PM »
63% is a good place to start.  I've used 64-65% before when trying to replicate Craig's dough but my flour is older since it's so dry here and it takes me so long to go through a 25kg bag.   I have also been trying to rehydrate my flour before making dough.  That seems to be helping.  You can do that by steaming your home oven or microwave and leaving a bowl of flour in there for a few hours. 

Because my flour is dry, it seems to affect the mixing times as well.  That last batch I only mixed in my KA for 3mins, rested 30m or so and then balled the dough and allowed it to rest.   Hydration and mixing specifics aside, I would try to duplicate the consistency of the dough above anything else.  Let that dictate your hydration and mixing times.  The rest is just practice but you aren't that far off my friend.

Online tinroofrusted

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #98 on: July 16, 2013, 07:47:03 PM »
Tru dat...

The stars are all aligning up for me this weekend.  My first shot at some pies post TPS II tutoring.  Hope I don't fail miserably...

Video, please.  I would love to see some real time skin stretching and pizza baking.  If possible...

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Blackstone Challenge
« Reply #99 on: July 16, 2013, 08:05:24 PM »
Tru dat...

The stars are all aligning up for me this weekend.  My first shot at some pies post TPS II tutoring.  Hope I don't fail miserably...

Be the pizza.
Pizza is not bread.


 

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