Author Topic: Cooking and Forming  (Read 1378 times)

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Offline sonny.eymann

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Cooking and Forming
« on: July 06, 2013, 03:53:37 PM »
I am new to the forum and relatively new to pizza making but I am very serious about pizza making and I have problems to solve in cooking and forming techniques. My ultimate goal is to open a pizza shop but not until I have a good product.

I am in Panama city, Panama. The flour selection is very limited and most pizza places if they are chains ship into Panama the flour they use and the others use a local milled unbleached flour that says better for bread. it is not as high in protein as American pizza or bread flour. I don’t think.

Problem 1. Every time I use recipes that has any oil in the recipe I can’t stretch the dough without tearing the dough.  Is that caused by the lower protein flour?  Are there any solutions? Will a dough press work where hand forming is difficult? thoughts?

Problem 2. I like making  medium crust with a medium amount of toppings. ( I am making a 17” pizza with a 20oz dough ball)  but the problem comes in forming and delivering to my deck oven that is operating at 600 degrees. Any thoughts on deck oven temp. ?

I am currently forming in the pan with olive oil and cooking in the pan. I am cooking all the way through but I am not getting the center as done as I want as the top finishes because of the amount of  topping and pan? I would like to continue cooking in the pan but need help. I use a shinny aluminum pan. Will a dark pan be better? 

I have tried making on the peel but i can not deliver  a 17” pizza loaded  to the deck oven. I have used flour and corn meal that is all that is available here. but I can not deliver?  any thoughts?

I have tried par baking but that is a second step and new problems

What are thoughts on Doughexpress pizza presses one with a heated top plate?

Help? thanks
Sonny


Offline pythonic

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2013, 08:13:11 PM »
Please let us know what dough formulation you are using.  Most dough tears because it is under kneaded or cold.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2013, 01:20:23 AM »
100% better for bread flour 
62% water cold
1 tsp yeast instant dry yeast and
1 Tsp salt  in one 20 oz ball
mixed together by hand let sit 10 minutes than mixed in electric mixer with dough hook on speed 1 or 2 depending how the dough is acting
coated with olive in ball in plastic bowl in refrigerator 1 to 3 days.
If no oil it forms warm or cold just take longer cold because it snaps back again formed on a well oiled pizza pan.
It is still ok with 1 tbs of oil but becomes difficult at 4 or 5 is no good
I coat the crust with olive oil  and light salt before loading

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2013, 08:02:30 AM »
Sonny,

You didn't quite provide enough information to make it easy to calculate the percents of ingredients used, but by testing various percents of salt and IDY in the expanded dough calculating tool, I managed to come up with the following:

"Better for Bread" Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.87%):
Salt (1.62%):
Total (164.49%):
344.7 g  |  12.16 oz | 0.76 lbs
213.72 g  |  7.54 oz | 0.47 lbs
3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
567 g | 20 oz | 1.25 lbs | TF = N/A

Does the above look right?

Also, when you use oil in the dough, do you just add it to the above ingredients or do you adjust the amounts of the other ingredients so that you always end up with a 20-ounce dough ball? With respect to the flour, it is milled by General Mills and imported into Panama by any chance?

Peter

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2013, 01:23:22 PM »
yes
I am weighting the flour and water but a Tsp for the others. I thought the salt and yeast was less important if on the less side. my yeast is less because of the long time in the refrigerator. I also have added up to 1 tbs of sugar doesn't seem to effect much. I am mixing about 10 minutes after resting 10 minutes. feels and looks good but I am not a baker
The question I had: does oil effect dough handling with weak flour? I thought the oil help flavor?
Will it form better in a dough press?

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2013, 01:27:08 PM »
I see I did not answer question well. the water and flour make 20 oz everything else is on top of so maybe a little more

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2013, 01:56:45 PM »
Sonny,

You forgot to answer the question on the brand of the flour.

Peter

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2013, 02:39:41 PM »
It is milled in Panama. I have no idea where the wheat comes from. they sell in 50 or 100 lb bags says better for bread

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2013, 03:12:15 PM »
Sonny,

If the flour and water weigh 20 ounces combined, and you are adding the IDY and salt by volume to those ingredients, then it appears that your recipe looks like this from a baker's percent standpoint:

"Better for Bread" Flour (100%):
Water (61.8%):
IDY (0.86%):
Salt (1.60%):
Total (164.26%):
350.53 g  |  12.36 oz | 0.77 lbs
216.63 g  |  7.64 oz | 0.48 lbs
3.01 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
5.61 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
575.79 g | 20.31 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = N/A

Is the above correct?

If so, and you add a tablespoon of oil (for example, olive oil) along with the rest of the ingredients, then the recipe looks like this from a baker's percent standpoint:

"Better for Bread" Flour (100%):
Water (61.8%):
IDY (0.86%):
Salt (1.60%):
Olive Oil (3.85%):
Total (168.11%):
350.54 g  |  12.36 oz | 0.77 lbs
216.63 g  |  7.64 oz | 0.48 lbs
3.01 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
5.61 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
13.5 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
589.29 g | 20.79 oz | 1.3 lbs | TF = N/A

Can you tell us how long you keep the dough in the refrigerator before using? 0.86% IDY is a lot of yeast for a dough that is to be cold fermented. That may be causing some of your problems but we can't know for sure until you provide more information on the length of the cold fermentation. With respect to the flour, can you provide the name of the miller? It is possible that you are experiencing problems with excessive levels of starch damage that is contributing to excessive stickiness in the dough, making it hard to handle. That problem is quite common for many countries outside of the U.S., including countries in Central America. You can read more about this subject at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8973&hilit=#p61197 and also at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8973&p=61755&hilit=#p73538. If excessive starch damage is your major problem, then the hydration value of around 62% would be far too high for what you are trying to do. Adding oil or sugar would not fix problems that are due to excessive starch damage.

If the above numbers are not correct, you may want to list all of your ingredients, by weights if you have them and by volume measurements otherwise. It is difficult to give you advice if we don't know exactly what you are doing.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 03:53:46 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2013, 06:19:37 PM »
Peter
It is in the refrigerator 24 to 72 hours. What should the percent for IDY % for that time or is it more critical?  I can't use the same amount IDY for 1 or 2 or 3 days?
What would your recipe with olive oil be for a 24hour in the frig.
my scale .1 oz than .2.oz so I will mix a larger batch flour and salt and IDY  less water and oil than use as needed so that I can weigh everything. I think you are telling me that is necessary for consistency?
I also talk to a Pizza Shop today ( his product is crape he weighs nothing and does not make the same pizza 2 days in a row) but he uses the same flour and he calls it a AP flour unbleached, He also told me to go to the mill and they have a "Duro " flour available.  but only in 100 bags. he says expensive about $65. I will do tomorrow.  maybe they can tell me more about the flour.
Thanks for your ideas


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2013, 06:50:35 PM »
Benny,

Before addressing your questions, it will help to know what type or style of pizza you want to make. Is there a known pizza style in Panama, such as the Sbarro pizza, that you are trying to copy?

Peter

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2013, 07:58:28 PM »
Good question
 I don't know what people like in Panama or if there is a successful standard? I think it is more location and value that is success but I should research. I have been in business all my life with success. but not this business. this is a hobby but I am considering to be more.  I am in the learning stage now.

There are many wood fired ovens in Panama but dough is not aged in most cases and product is not consistent but ok. I do not like wood fired ovens. 
Too much work! they are often burning all kinds or scape wood sometimes painted very unhealthy.

The pizza i like comes from from a conveyor oven that is operated correctly it browns the bottom and finish the top but most are operate incorrectly and are going to fast and are not fully cooked in the center of dough.

I also like pizza that is cooked in a well oiled pan on the grill. the pizza is somewhat fried but I don't think that is a good business plan for production.

I have bought a countertop deck oven for learning it goes to 700 but takes forever to get there so I am cooking at 550 to 600   my thought was a commercial deck oven if I ever open. thoughts?

I like a lot of toping but I like the crust browned and cooked under that load. What are your thoughts on this goal?
I would like a starting recipe?  again a 20oz ball forming a 16 to 17" pizza

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2013, 10:03:00 PM »
I talked to the the largest mill in Panama today. Learn a lot, if what I learned was correct. jejeje  ( everyone in Panama is a expert but not alway correct)
They mill hard and soft wheat. and a blend of both. they mill hard wheat one to two times a week only to order and only stock they do stock very little.  they sell in 100lb bags only but since I am a potential new costumer they will do 50lbs today and deliver to my office tomorrow. good

Hard wheat only. 12 to 14 % protein  only about 40% of pizza shops use and not recommend for hot wood fired ovens too tuff. but most places that make 16" to 18" pizza do use hard wheat and do put olive oil in there mix
a blend of both hard and soft at about 11 to 12 % protein most baker and pizza use this. and recommend for wood fired ovens
most pizza shops do not cold or over night ferment. they start mixing at opening and use in a few hours. at the end of the night they cook off remaining dough balls for use at opening the next day.

I think I have been using way to much IDY. I think I was mixing in way to much olive oil when I tried olive oil.
So tomorrow I start over weighing everything new flour and see what happens with true hard wheat flour (bread flour)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2013, 12:02:31 PM »
Sonny,

Even if you are able to find a suitable flour to use, eventually you are going to have to decide what kind of pizza you want to make, both as a hobby in your home and in any commercial setting that you decide upon. Also, you are going to have to decide what kind of oven you want to use in a commercial setting. And even if you are able to come up with a dough in a home setting that you like and performs well, it isn’t automatic that you will be able to use the same dough, and the same preparation and management procedures, in a commercial setting. I have read numerous reports where doughs that were prepared for use in a home oven did not produce the same results when baked in a commercial setting with a commercial oven. And, conversely, doughs intended for a commercial oven did not produce the same results in a home oven. Often, the differences were very dramatic.

In the U.S., we are blessed with many choices for commercial ovens. In the past, different pizza styles were pretty much dedicated to certain styles of oven, both deck ovens and conveyor ovens. But, over the years, a lot of overlap has developed as to the types and styles of pizzas that can be made with both types of ovens.

Starting first with deck ovens, traditionally such ovens are used to make thin crust pizzas such as the New York and New Jersey (NY/NJ) styles and some other thin crust pizzas such as the Chicago and Midwestern thin style and cracker styles. While the cracker styles are able to handle a lot of toppings, because of their rigid crusts, the softer crust style pizzas, such as the NY/NJ styles, use few toppings. Otherwise, the toppings can slide off of the pizzas when eaten. Also, problems can arise if the toppings have a high water content, such as vegetables, or if too many such toppings are used. The water released by these toppings during baking can lead to what is sometimes called “swamp” pizza because of all of the water released onto the pizza, usually at the center. The crust may appear done, but the toppings can be only partially cooked, and wet, and parts of the dough can appear to be underbaked or even raw.

In terms of operating procedures, the NY/NJ and other soft crust pizzas are typically assembled and dressed on wooden peels and loaded onto a stone or metal surface. The dough balls are opened and formed into skins by hand. Typical pizza sizes range from about 14” to 20”, with 18” being quite common, especially for pizzas sold by the slice. In some cases, screens or disks are used in the deck ovens, either to control the bottom crust browning or because it is easier to train workers to form and dress the pizzas on the screens rather than on peels and load them into the oven. In the case of pizzas with firmer and cracker type crusts, the skins are typically formed using rollers and sheeters before using to make pizzas.

I would say that most of the deck ovens in use today tend to be by independents with one or a small number of units.

It is also possible to use deck ovens to make pan style pizzas. This has always been the case. The types of pizzas that can be baked in pans in a deck oven can include deep-dish pizzas and round or square/rectangular medium-thick crust pizzas. These include the Pizza Hut pan and personal style pizzas, Detroit-style pizzas, Greek-style pizzas, and Sicilian/Grandma style pizzas. Since pans are used, the pizzas in most cases can tolerate a lot of toppings. Also, it is common for many of these styles of pizzas to use a fair amount of fat (solid or oil) to the bottoms of the pans in order to create a crispy “fried” bottom crust.

Conveyor ovens use mostly screens and disks. Conveyor ovens have taken considerable market share from deck ovens. In fact, just about all of the major pizza chains, and even some smaller regional chains, that started out with deck ovens have gone to conveyor ovens, in some cases exclusively or almost so. These include Pizza Hut, Domino’s, Papa John’s, some small regional chains such as Home Run Inn (a small Chicago-area chain), Buddy’s (a small Detroit-area chain) and even some Chicago-area pizzerias that specialize in the deep-dish style. There have been few holdouts among the majors. For example, Sbarro’s, which has almost 1000 stores in about 30 countries, including three stores in Panama, still uses deck ovens. Papa Gino’s, a 160+ store chain in the Northeast U.S., and Mellow Mushroom, a chain with over 100 stores, also use deck ovens. One chain, Jet’s, which features a popular rectangular pan pizza, never used a deck oven. It started with conveyor ovens.

The most popular conveyor style pizza is perhaps the American style of pizzas. These pizzas typically feature thicker crusts, a fair amount of sugar and oil, and the capability of using many toppings. Some of the best examples of this style include Papa John’s, Domino’s, Pizza Hut, and Little Caesars. Deck ovens are not good choices for these types of pizzas because of the high sugar content of the doughs that can result in prematurely browned or even burned bottom crusts if baked in a deck oven. This is not a problem with NY/NJ and similar style pizzas because the doughs contain little or no sugar. Conveyor ovens also tend to do a better job with pizzas that have a lot of toppings with high water contents, because of the way that heat is directed over the pizzas during baking.

With the proper finger settings and other adjustments, conveyor ovens can also be used to make pan style pizzas, including the many pan style pizzas mentioned above.

As you can see, there is a lot of overlap between deck ovens and conveyor ovens. I realize that a lot of the names mentioned above may not mean much to you where you are in Panama but I wanted you to see some actual examples of how deck and conveyor ovens can, and are being, used. 

I also went back and read all of the questions you raised in your posts. If the flour you now plan to use is the proper flour for your purposes, and provided that you use the right hydration value and the right amount of yeast for the fermentation period you plan to use, I believe that a lot of your questions, including those relating to dough presses, will fall by the wayside. If you can now identify what kind of pizza you want to test in your home setting, and how you would like to make and bake the pizzas, and also specify the size of the pizzas, maybe I can give you some suggestions as to ingredient quantities and other aspects.

Peter

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2013, 06:26:31 PM »
Peter thanks
There are so many experts tell me that conveyor ovens are no good but I have seen and tasted just to opposite.  It is good to hear you say. i know one pizza maker  that operated a snack bar using a conveyor oven. that pizza he made was as good as any  I have know of in the last 5. I would drive well out of my way to have a slice or 2 or take a pie home.
His crusts were great with a lot of flavor and yes a lot of toppings. he uses frozen dough balls from a disturber. (20 oz) he used a dough press to form. He had a line out the door some nights.  he produce;  16" only and sold whole pies or slices. this was in the USA 5 years ago  the owner of the building and space loved his success. He did not renew his lease.  the owner of the space opened a pizza shop with different equipment, dough mixed on site but not aged, using a deck oven with kids. made totally different product and today does not even make pizza because no more lines. I am considering conveyor oven if I get that far.

Here in Panama there is many pizza places. most serve a tasteless crust but they are successful enough to continue.  all restaurants sell much more than just food it is the experience of friends and more. but it helps to start with a good product.

I have been in business for 40 years. I understand the challenges of being in business and I am not sure it would be worth the effort. It may remain only a hobby.

I dont know what to call the Pizza that I like. I like all pizza but I much prefer what the guy I talked about made.   20oz dough ball making a 16" pizza and not cracker and not deep dish but I am reluctant to call it a new york style. What would you call it?
Thank you again for the help. I know you have steered me in a better direction. I will try not to get lost. 

« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 09:06:37 AM by sonny.eymann »

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2013, 06:30:28 PM »
Hola
Peter I hope you will respond to this one.
I got my local milled hard flour and mixed 2  X  20.5 oz dough balls to this recipe.
Every thing was very accurately weighted. I even checked my digital scale to make sure correct.

flour 100% at 80 deg
water 62% at  40 deg
IDY   .42%       This is less than half of what I was using in the past
sugar 1 %     I have not used sugar every time but this is less than what I used in the past.
oil      1%     this is many times less oil when I tried oil before. I have not tried  oil in the past few months
salt    1.75%  this is 2 times the salt as I normal use.

In the past I always mixed the dry than added water.
This time I mixed as recommended by a food service service co
water and salt mixed..... add sugar mixed .........add IDY mixed add flour.
Hand mixed 1 minute.
let stand 10 minutes
mixed with dough hook kitchen aid  model 600
mixed on speed 2 then 4 about 7 minutes,  add oil mixed another 3 minutes on 4  and 6

The dough was much much softer than before  . Why? the Oil?
Also more sticky. Why?   water has alway been very accurately weighted
I also had to form the ball by folding the ends in  before I could roll into a ball on the counter this was way to soft to roll? why?
Thanks
Sonny

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2013, 07:07:11 PM »
Sonny,

Can you tell me the protein content of the flour you are now using?

Your dough formulation looks fine, so something else must be going on. If it isn't a flour problem, the problem might be that you kneaded the dough at mixer speeds that were too high and for too long at those speeds. In my home KitchenAid stand mixer, I try to use only low speeds, and rarely above speed 2. The problem is not with the oil.

Peter

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2013, 10:46:04 PM »
Peter and all
The mill says the protein is between 12 and 14 with each batch a little different but most of the time about 13

The dough remained very soft even when cold.
time in the cold proof was about 40 hours.
The pizza was formed and cooked in a oiled 16" pan at 500 degree
the forming took time because of a lot of spring back but was very obvious  the gluten develop was high because it would stretch very thin and no tearing also as air was pushed out it blew bubbles on the surface and they did not break this is the first pizza i have ever needed to dock before sauce.
After the pizza was formed and sauced it continued to proof for the next 30 minutes whiled I wait for the oven reach 500.
the pizza was cooked until the edges were as crisp as possible.
the taste was the best I have ever made.
the  crust was very light very tender with lots of air and bread like yet there was a little crisp  at the edges and very good but nothing like I have ever cooked before
I wonder if there was a dough enhancer add? I don't know. I will see if reproducible It was worth reproducing
I used a 20.5 oz dough ball to from a 16" pizza. I would consider that a medium thin crust pizza but it was so airy and expanded I would say almost a thick crust
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 11:19:28 PM by sonny.eymann »

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Cooking and Forming
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2013, 06:30:27 PM »
I hope that peter or one of the experts reply to this.
I have continued making pizza with my locally milled bread flour. Very good, very tender pizza with good gluten formation. easy to stretch but has a lot of spring back but very formable just takes time.
I have mixed on the lowest speed with no change. I have reduced the mixing time to about 7 minutes. no change. I don't think over mixed is the problem
The dough does seem wetter than a 62% hydration and very soft.

I tried an experiment.  I weigh out 300 grams of flour. I put it in the oven for a hour at 150 degrees. when I reweighed, it weigh 295 grams so almost 2% water that was cooked off.

I made a few pizza and reduced the hydration to 58 and 55%.  the 55% one was much more like I think a dough ball should be, but the pizza was not as good and tasted like many low quality pizza joins.   the dough formed a better

The last experiment. A friend gave me enough King Author GP flour to make a dough ball. the flour was over a year old. I made 2 dough balls one with each flour but first I cooked both flours for a hour at 150 degrees. the Panama flour lost 7 grams out of 375 grams and the KA flour lost 2 grams.
I guess the conclusion all flours may have some water in it.
I made 2 dough balls based on 350 grams of dried flour.The flour was  returned to room temp. before mixing.
62 % hydration  217g  of water
3.5g oil
3.5g surger
1.75 % salt or 6g a sprinkle more
1/4 tsp IDY
I form and cook tomorrow
The Panama milled dough ball is softer.  Why? what is your speculation?
Does changing the Hydration level to 55% always mean the dough is easier to work?  and not tasted as good and be tuff?



« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 06:34:06 PM by sonny.eymann »


 

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