Author Topic: Gino's East Baker's Formula  (Read 19889 times)

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Offline djryan1194

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2006, 05:35:44 PM »
YES!  That sounds familiar.  I believe that was the brand name!  And I did measure it and it is 1 1/2" deep.


Offline foodblogger

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2006, 07:59:29 PM »
Pete-zza:
I've got to sit down and think about this problem for a while.  For some reason I am having a big problem with numbers today.  I trust absolutely that your calculation of thickness factor is correct.  I'll try wrapping my head around this tomorrow.

DJryan:
Don't forget the approximately 1/2 teaspoon of yellow food coloring.  I think I left it out.

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2006, 10:03:41 AM »
OK. I figured out what I was doing wrong. I put together a spread sheet to calculate dough weight for different sized deep dish pans according to the formula:
Dough weight = [(pi X R X R) + (2 X pi X R) X 1.25] X .127

The .127 comes from Pete-zza's calculation of my thickness factor. The 1.25 comes from the height minus the thickness of the dough. Using the dough weights I then calculated the ingredient weights for every size pan. Here is a summary of ingredients for every size pan rounded to the nearest gram.

9 inch 10 inch 11 inch 12 inch 13 inch 14 inch
Flour 206 g 245 g 288 g 334 g 403 g 435 g
Water 103 g 123 g 144 g 167 g 202 g 218 g
Corn Oil 31 g 37 g 43 g 50 g 61 g 65 g
Olive Oil 6 g 7 g 9 g 10 g 12 g 13 g
Sugar 4 g 5 g 6 g 7 g 8 g 9 g
Cream Tartar 2 g 2 g 3 g 3 g 4 g 4 g
Salt 2 g 2 g 3 g 3 g 4 g 4 g
IDY 2 g 2 g 2 g 3 g 3 g 3 g

Each pie also has yellow food coloring, 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon, based on eyeballing.


Dough Mixing
1)  Dissolve salt and yellow food coloring in water.
2)  Add half of the flour and all the yeast.
3)  Stir until mixed.
4)  Cover bowl with plastic wrap.  Let sit for 20 minutes.
5)  Add the rest of the ingredients and stir until combined.
6)  Hand kneed for 2 minutes.  (and ONLY 2 minutes)
7)  Place dough ball in a gallon ziplock bag and let proof in the fridge for 24 hours.

Shaping

1)  Remove dough from fridge and allow to warm up on counter for 2 hours.
2)  About an hour into the warming up, prepare the oven. (see below)
3)  When ready to bake, pour 1/4 cup olive oil into the bottom of a 12 inch deep dish pan.  Add a little more for a bigger pan, and a little less for a smaller pan.
4)  Dust counter with flour and flatten dough ball with hand to make a round circle.  Let sit for a few minutes.
5)  Using your fingertips, press the dough outward to form a round dough piece.  Let rest a few minutes.
6)  Using your palms, stretch the dough out further to a diameter of almost 12 inches.  Let rest a few minutes.
7)  Lift dough from counter and stretch on your knuckles until it is about the right size for the deep dish pan.
8-  Place dough in pan and press the edges 1 1/2 inches up the sides of the pan.
9)  Top pizza and immediately place into the oven.

Bake at 450 degrees on the bottom rack of the oven for 15 minutes.  At 15 minutes rotate the pizza 180 degrees and check it.  In my oven I bake 10 more minutes so that it looks like it does in the photo above.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2006, 10:40:25 AM »
foodblogger,

I'm sure that our members will figure it out, but it is perhaps worth reminding everyone that the bake time will vary for the different size deep-dish pies. There may also be other oven factors to take into account because of the variances from one oven to the other.

FWIW, I weighed out a teaspoon of cream of tartar. I got about 4 grams per teaspoon, or around 0.14 oz./t.

I look forward to the results that our members get from using your formulation. It's possible that the feedback will be useful to further tweak the basic formulation and make it even better. That's the value of the collaborative effort. It's like making a Wiki-pizza :).

Peter

Offline djryan1194

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2006, 12:31:35 PM »
Thanks for your efforts with this calculation.  I appreciate it and look forward to some experimentation!  I'm going to wait for my shipment of 6-1 to get here, and my attempt to lift a pan from Lou's this weekend!   ;D   So I'll give this a try early next week when I return.

Thanks again guys -

Jen

Offline PizzaPolice

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2006, 03:48:42 PM »
My eyes are watering after reading all the calculations!   :'(   You guys are deligent.

Can you imagine the two cab drivers who started Gino's, in the kitchen with pots, pans and a sliderule?  Letsee, Jimmy...if we project the pi onto the surface area, square it off then run it through the hypotenuse a couple a times we get...ah umm.. ah...  Screw it!  Just take a big hunk offa dere and stretch it in da pan.




Offline djryan1194

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2006, 01:09:33 PM »
Foodblogger..

Ok.  I'm going to start up this crust today.  I have two questions.  HOpefully you get these before I get started.

Should the water I start off with be warm?  Does the temperature matter?

Also, you say "stir until mixed."  Should I be hand mixing, or can I use my Kitchenaid/dough hook to mix?

I'm excited for dinner tomorrow!  I have two original Uno's nasty looking, seasoned pans that I got from my trip last weekend.  Bring it!!

Thanks..  Jen

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2006, 02:39:27 PM »
Quote
Should the water I start off with be warm?  Does the temperature matter?

I just use water straight out of the tap.  No need to be warm.

Quote
Also, you say "stir until mixed."  Should I be hand mixing, or can I use my Kitchenaid/dough hook to mix?

You can use the kitchenaid if you like, but I get better results just taking a big spoon and stiring everything up until it looks combined.  That shouldn't take more than a minute.

The next part is a hand knead for exactly 2 minutes.  It won't look like it is properly kneaded at the end, just go with it.  I usually do all this by hand because there is so little mixing that I don't feel its worth it to use the kitchenaid.  The danger here is if it gets mixed too much, which would happen with 2 minutes kneading on the kitchenaid.

Good luck!

Offline djryan1194

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2006, 02:45:26 PM »
Ok - great.  Even easier.  Hate dragging that big ole' machine out if I don't have to.

Thanks again.

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2006, 08:33:19 AM »
I tried this recipe with Caputo 00 flour last week.  It was delicious and performed well without any adjustments to the formula.  Sorry no photos, it got eaten too fast.


Offline loowaters

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2006, 04:17:17 PM »
Foodblogger, if I understood all this math I'd work it out myself but I'd like to ask and make sure there is no error in the different size calculations.  It seems strange that from the 12in. to the 13in. recipe we have a 69g jump in flour weight but only a 32g jump in flour weight from the 13 to the 14in. recipe.  Are those calculations correct or is something amiss?

Thanks to all of you, you're mystery solvers.
Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2006, 06:19:42 PM »
loowaters,

It looks like you have a sharp eye. I ran the numbers through my spreadsheet and, to save foodblogger some work, I will mention that the quantities given for the flour, water and oil (total oil) for the 13" size appear to be in error. Since his spreadsheet is a little bit different from mine, I will defer to his numbers.

You go to the head of the class, loowaters 8).

Peter

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2006, 08:09:01 AM »
Doh.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2006, 10:30:34 AM »
foodblogger,

I rounded out the numbers like you did for your table, and for the 13-inch size I get 382 g. for the flour, 191 g. for the water, 57 g. for the corn oil or canola, and 11 g. for the olive oil.

Peter

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2006, 10:42:37 AM »
Thanks for the work Pete. The funny thing is, I made a 13 inch pie last week according to the table and it turned out fine. I updated the table and instructions with the new numbers:

9 inch 10 inch 11 inch 12 inch 13 inch 14 inch
Flour 206 g 245 g 288 g 334 g 382 g 435 g
Water 103 g 123 g 144 g 167 g 191 g 218 g
Corn Oil 31 g 37 g 43 g 50 g 57 g 65 g
Olive Oil 6 g 7 g 9 g 10 g 11 g 13 g
Sugar 4 g 5 g 6 g 7 g 8 g 9 g
Cream Tartar 2 g 2 g 3 g 3 g 4 g 4 g
Salt 2 g 2 g 3 g 3 g 4 g 4 g
IDY 2 g 2 g 2 g 3 g 3 g 3 g


Each pie also has yellow food coloring, 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon, based on eyeballing.


Dough Mixing
1) Dissolve salt and yellow food coloring in water.
2) Add half of the flour and all the yeast.
3) Stir until mixed.
4) Cover bowl with plastic wrap. Let sit for 20 minutes.
5) Add the rest of the ingredients and stir until combined.
6) Hand kneed for 2 minutes. (and ONLY 2 minutes)
7) Place dough ball in a gallon ziplock bag and let proof in the fridge for 24 hours.

Shaping

1) Remove dough from fridge and allow to warm up on counter for 2 hours.
2) About an hour into the warming up, prepare the oven. (see below)
3) When ready to bake, pour 1/4 cup olive oil into the bottom of a 12 inch deep dish pan. Add a little more for a bigger pan, and a little less for a smaller pan.
4) Dust counter with flour and flatten dough ball with hand to make a round circle. Let sit for a few minutes.
5) Using your fingertips, press the dough outward to form a round dough piece. Let rest a few minutes.
6) Using your palms, stretch the dough out further to a diameter of almost 12 inches. Let rest a few minutes.
7) Lift dough from counter and stretch on your knuckles until it is about the right size for the deep dish pan.
8- Place dough in pan and press the edges 1 1/2 inches up the sides of the pan.
9) Top pizza and immediately place into the oven.

Bake at 450 degrees on the bottom rack of the oven for 15 minutes. At 15 minutes rotate the pizza 180 degrees and check it. In my oven I bake 10 more minutes so that it looks like it does in the photo above.

Offline zalicious

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2008, 02:00:35 PM »
Hi foodblogger,
 The recipe is pretty consistent with other deep dishes here. I personally have gone back to adding a little corn meal or fine semolina. I add 10% to the total weight of flour and really like the results. I understand that this may not be consistent with deep dish, it is all about personal preference. That is what home pizza making is all about. I also think corn oil help to give the crust a more yellow tint.

 foodblogger,
 What was the amount of corn meal you had been using in you're crust?
                                                                                                        Chiguy

How do you add in the 10% cornmeal? Can you share your recipe? Would I just use the Deep Dish Calculator & plug in 10% cornmeal, or is there another way?

Offline zalicious

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2008, 02:03:21 PM »
Typically 8.5%.  I didn't always use corn meal, sometimes I used corn flour.  It depended what I had on hand.

Could you describe your process a little?  How do you make up the dough?  How do you get the dough into the pan?  How do you bake it? 

Also what do you typically use for cheese, sauce, toppings etc?  Any info you could add would be great.

I guess I have the same question I just posed to Chiguy. How do you figure in your 8.5% cornmeal?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2008, 03:04:15 PM »
zalicious,

I can't speak for either chiguy or foodblogger, but as I see it there are two different ways of approaching the matter. One, you can replace part of the flour with cornmeal (e.g., 90% flour by weight and 10% cornmeal by weight, or 91.5% flour by weight and 8.5% cornmeal by weight). If you do that, you can use the deep-dish dough calculating tool with the same total dough weight and the same baker's percents as used by foodblogger (or the same baker's percents and the same thickness factor if you use that approach in the tool). Two, you can add the cornmeal to the flour as recited in the dough formulation. However, doing that, you increase the amount of dough and alter its thickness in the pan, or else you end up with some leftover dough. Also, you will most likely have to change the hydration because of the added cornmeal. Because of the way the deep-dish tool is designed, it may also be necessary to change the baker's percents of the remaining ingredients so that their quantities are with respect to the flour and cornmeal combined rather than the flour alone.

As between the two methods, the first one is the easier method. Even then, you may have to adjust the hydration a bit because of the different absorption characteristics of the flour and cornmeal. However, that is something you can play around with in the mixer bowl. If you can tell me what kind and size of pan you would like to use, and which method you would like to use, and the percent of cornmeal, maybe I can give you an example of a dough formulation to try out.

Peter

Offline zalicious

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2008, 05:17:48 PM »
Well, the pan is like a cheesecake pan with the push-up bottom, but not a spring- form. Size would be 9x2, with 8.5% cornmeal, TF of .125. You are so kind to do this :). Thanks!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2008, 06:12:16 PM »
zalicious,

Using the data you provided (9 x 2 straight-sided pan, TF = 0.125, and 8.5% cornmeal), I came up with the following dough formulation using the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html:

Flour & Cornmeal* (100%):
Water (50%):
IDY (0.97087%):
Salt (0.97087%):
Olive Oil (2.91262%):
Corn Oil (15.0485%):
Sugar (1.94174%):
Cream of Tartar (0.97087%):
Total (172.81547%):
202.93 g  |  7.16 oz | 0.45 lbs
101.46 g  |  3.58 oz | 0.22 lbs
1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
5.91 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
30.54 g | 1.08 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.79 tsp | 2.26 tbsp
3.94 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.66 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
350.69 g | 12.37 oz | 0.77 lbs | TF = 0.125
*Note: The amount of flour is 185.68 g./6.55 oz. (91.5%), and the amount of cornmeal is 17.25 g./0.61 oz. (8.5%)

Please note that you will have to add the food coloring separately. Also, the above formulation assumes that you will push the dough up the sides of your pan by 1 , as specified by foodblogger. I used foodblogger's 9" data to calculate the baker's percents used in the above dough formulation.

I usually recommend that a bowl residue compensation factor be used to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. If a value of, say, 2% is used, the above dough formulation becomes:

Flour & Cornmeal* (100%):
Water (50%):
IDY (0.97087%):
Salt (0.97087%):
Olive Oil (2.91262%):
Corn Oil (15.0485%):
Sugar (1.94174%):
Cream of Tartar (0.97087%):
Total (172.81547%):
206.99 g  |  7.3 oz | 0.46 lbs
103.49 g  |  3.65 oz | 0.23 lbs
2.01 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
2.01 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
6.03 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
31.15 g | 1.1 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.92 tsp | 2.31 tbsp
4.02 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
2.01 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
357.7 g | 12.62 oz | 0.79 lbs | TF = 0.1275
*Note: The amount of flour is 189.40 g./6.68 oz. (91.5%), and the amount of cornmeal is 17.59 g./0.62 oz. (8.5%); the nominal thickness factor used in the tool for this formulation is 0.125

If the final dough weight exceeds 350.69 g. (12.37 oz.), you can always trim the dough weight back. However, any difference in weight is likely to be small. Also, if you decide to change any of the amounts of ingredients used, including more water if needed, you will want to note the extent of the changes so that the dough formulation(s) can be adjusted for future use.

Good luck, and please let us know how things turn out if you decide to proceed.

Peter


 

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