Author Topic: benefits of cold fermentation?  (Read 2262 times)

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Offline caltheide

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benefits of cold fermentation?
« on: July 11, 2013, 02:54:54 PM »
Other than flavor are there any other benefits to a long cold fermentation.  Does a shorter or longer cold fermentation time affect the crust texture, softer or crispier, etc?  I ususally leave my dough in the refrigerator overnight, is that long enough or will longer give me a better crust (I like a crispy outside and chewy inside)?  Thanks for any info.


Offline tombiasi

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 03:01:20 PM »
Other than flavor are there any other benefits to a long cold fermentation.  Does a shorter or longer cold fermentation time affect the crust texture, softer or crispier, etc?  I ususally leave my dough in the refrigerator overnight, is that long enough or will longer give me a better crust (I like a crispy outside and chewy inside)?  Thanks for any info.


I'll let the pros speak on dough chemistry but I can tell you from personal experience the flavor develops more as the yeast slowly ferments over a couple of days or more. I can taste a big difference between my regular 3 day ferment and a one day dough.
Just my $.02.
Tom

Offline pythonic

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 09:08:57 PM »
To me it makes the dough easier to stretch as well.
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Offline rishadfromoz

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2013, 07:05:45 PM »
Whenever I have put my dough in the fridge overnight it never seems to 'move' at all.  Do you guys find that your dough expands in the fridge? I only seem to get expansion when I do a same dough with the dough in a bowl and covered with cling.

Thanks
Rish

Offline Kale dog

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2013, 07:22:47 PM »
Whenever I have put my dough in the fridge overnight it never seems to 'move' at all.  Do you guys find that your dough expands in the fridge? I only seem to get expansion when I do a same dough with the dough in a bowl and covered with cling.

Thanks
Rish

It depends on your use of cold or warm water before you ferment it  ???
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2013, 01:13:36 PM »
Other than flavor are there any other benefits to a long cold fermentation.  Does a shorter or longer cold fermentation time affect the crust texture, softer or crispier, etc?  I ususally leave my dough in the refrigerator overnight, is that long enough or will longer give me a better crust (I like a crispy outside and chewy inside)?  Thanks for any info.

Cold fermentation gives you a much longer window of opportunity to use the dough than warm fermentation. I suspect the practice of cold fermentation began specifically as a way for pizzerias to be able to keep their dough usable and consistent either all day or for multiple days, rather than having to use dough at various stages of maturity, then having to throw out overfermented dough and unused dough. Then, I suspect, people probably figured out by accident that cold-fermented crust generally tastes better than warm-fermented crust.

Offline DustinA

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2013, 01:20:58 PM »
Whenever I have put my dough in the fridge overnight it never seems to 'move' at all.  Do you guys find that your dough expands in the fridge? I only seem to get expansion when I do a same dough with the dough in a bowl and covered with cling.

Thanks
Rish

Hi Rish, thank you for the thread!  Could you post your dough recipe for us?  We could probably find something in the recipe itself that we could point to for the lack of rise in the fridge.

Also, have you tried the poppy seed test on the dough while it's in the fridge?  Your eyes can trick you sometimes and it's an easy way to be able to measure if you have any movement or not.  When you put the dough in the fridge, place two poppy seeds right next to each other.  Check them everyday and when you start to see a space between the two, you know you have a rise starting.

You also might not be giving your dough long enough in the fridge either.  I worked with a dough recipe from here that took 4 days before you could see any movement at all.  8 day total rise time.  Completely worth it though.

For me, cold rises give a LOT more flavor and are much easier to stretch and work with.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 01:23:36 PM by DustinA »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2013, 01:33:58 PM »
Cold fermentation gives you a much longer window of opportunity to use the dough than warm fermentation. I suspect the practice of cold fermentation began specifically as a way for pizzerias to be able to keep their dough usable and consistent either all day or for multiple days, rather than having to use dough at various stages of maturity, then having to throw out overfermented dough and unused dough.

I think you are probably right about this.

For me, cold rises give a LOT more flavor and are much easier to stretch and work with.

It's probably a factor of the time not the cold. In my estimation, cool temps (mid-low 60F's) will develop flavor at about 4X the rate of the fridge. I.e. 48 hours at 65F = 8 days in the fridge with respect to flavor. Handling qualities are probably not much different either way given the same dough temperature when you go to work it.

IMO, cold fermenting (fridge temps) should never be used for sourdough-leavened dough.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline DustinA

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2013, 01:47:58 PM »
It's probably a factor of the time not the cold.

That raises an interesting question.  Can you have one without the other?  Can you do a long, warm rise?  I would imagine that you would spend every few hours punching the dough down and reballing, but I guess it could technically be done.  It seems as if if time develops the flavor but the cold keeps it convenient so you don't have to babysit it constantly.

Offline mkevenson

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2013, 02:03:06 PM »
Dustin,
 
I feel that the amount of yeast relative to the temp and time are the keys to using either cold or less than cold ferment temps. I have been successful with 48-56 hr ferments at 63-65 F using this model.
 
Mark
 
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Offline chasenpse

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2013, 02:11:30 PM »
IMO, cold fermenting (fridge temps) should never be used for sourdough-leavened dough.

What's the reasoning behind this, does commercial yeast preform differently than wild yeast?
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2013, 02:22:20 PM »
That raises an interesting question.  Can you have one without the other?  Can you do a long, warm rise?  I would imagine that you would spend every few hours punching the dough down and reballing, but I guess it could technically be done.  It seems as if if time develops the flavor but the cold keeps it convenient so you don't have to babysit it constantly.

As I suggested above, "Long" is a relative term. 8 days in the fridge may be "longer" than 2 days at 64F, but that doesn't mean the result is better - rather I would argue that the 64F dough is superior in every metric (flavor, handling, spring, finished crumb texture, etc.). 

Remember that temperature is only one of several variables. You can reduce the amount of yeast. I do 48 hours at 63-65F with 24 in bulk and 24 in balls. After 24 hours in bulk, there is almost no rise and the balls are ready to go at the end of 48. There is no punch-down, reballing, or babysitting.

Other than as a logistical solution (e.g. you need the dough in 6 days, but you have to make it today or the commercial situation Ryan described above), I so no reason to cold ferment.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2013, 02:23:36 PM »
What's the reasoning behind this, does commercial yeast preform differently than wild yeast?

Very different. All the sensory attributes of the final product are significantly degraded when you use the fridge for SD.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Chaze215

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2013, 04:34:51 PM »
I've noticed that a lot of the Neapolitan guys do a 63-65 temperature rise while the NY style guys (like myself) do a cold ferment in the fridge. Is this because of the different flours used or doesn't it matter?
Chaz

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2013, 05:23:51 PM »
I've noticed that a lot of the Neapolitan guys do a 63-65 temperature rise while the NY style guys (like myself) do a cold ferment in the fridge. Is this because of the different flours used or doesn't it matter?

I don't think it's about the flour so much as it's the directions the different crowds have headed for whatever reasons. I don't know enough about NY-style to say that it would be better with mid-60s fermentation, but my gut feeling is that it would be.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2013, 06:12:29 PM »
Other than flavor are there any other benefits to a long cold fermentation.  Does a shorter or longer cold fermentation time affect the crust texture, softer or crispier, etc?  I ususally leave my dough in the refrigerator overnight, is that long enough or will longer give me a better crust (I like a crispy outside and chewy inside)?  Thanks for any info.

With laminated cracker crusts, long, cold fermentation periods are almost always necessary for at least a couple reasons. The first reason, in a commercial setting, is that you'd never be able to keep up with demand if you sheeted laminated skins to order. It would be ridiculously inefficient to do that (in a bunch of different ways). But another good reason for long cold fermentation periods with this kind of pizza is that laminated crusts develop a lot of different characteristics if the skins are allowed to cold-ferment for several hours or a day or even longer. If you use such a skin right after sheeting, it will be fine. But if you put it in a cooler for a couple hours or a day, you'll end up with a pizza I think most people would prefer over a laminated crust baked immediately after sheeting.

One thing you can't do with laminated skins is store them at warm temperatures after you've rolled or sheeted the skin. (You can warm-ferment this kind of dough before sheeting, though.) If you leave a laminated skin at room temperature for very long, it won't end up as a laminated cracker crust.

So for this kind of pizza, refrigeration is pretty essential.

Offline Chaze215

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2013, 06:17:27 PM »
Looks like I'm going to have to do more experimenting. I'm certainly a rookie compared to some around here. I wonder if some of the more experienced NY stylers could chime in with their findings. If i could achieve the same taste with a room temperature ferment vs cold ferment that would save me from getting another refrigerator for my mobile business. Hmmmmmmmmm.
Chaz

Offline waltertore

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2013, 06:28:28 PM »
Looks like I'm going to have to do more experimenting. I'm certainly a rookie compared to some around here. I wonder if some of the more experienced NY stylers could chime in with their findings. If i could achieve the same taste with a room temperature ferment vs cold ferment that would save me from getting another refrigerator for my mobile business. Hmmmmmmmmm.

I do the 2-3 fridge ferment because it is consistant and it  also adds a lot of flavor to the dough.  If I did room temp 24-72 hour ferment I bet it would be erratic to say the least.  Our temps flucuate through the day and by the season.  Also we are on a whole school system temp control so I have no control on the temps in my room.  I find the 2 day is the best for an easy to work dough and flavor.  We are closed on weekend so Friday afternoon we make a batch of dough for Monday/Tuesday and Monday make a batch for wed-thur, and late tuesday for thursday/friday.  I will have to try a room temp rise and see what happens.   When I was young and working in pizzerias (late 60's-early 70's) it was all same day dough and I think that was typical of the NYC area at that time.  Now the doughs taste better but the  cheeses have declined.......  Walter
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 06:30:30 PM by waltertore »

Offline Chaze215

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2013, 06:33:09 PM »
Walt you are one of those experienced NY stylers that I spoke of. I'm curious to see what you find out. I currently do a 2 day cold ferment as well. How much will you reduce your yeast for the room temp rise? Do you plan on reducing or increasing anything else?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 06:35:00 PM by Chaze215 »
Chaz

Offline mkevenson

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Re: benefits of cold fermentation?
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2013, 06:47:12 PM »
Chase, going by the yeast chart seen above, @ 40 F for 43-58 hrs, IDY is 0.128%
@ 70 F, for 38-63 hrs, IDY is 0.016%.


Don't know how Walter figures his yeast amount out, but that chart seems to be pretty helpful for me with a lot less experience than Walter.


Mark
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