Author Topic: pizza romana? (Read 13002 times)

grafica · « **on:** February 12, 2006, 05:07:08 AM »

...somewhat related to focaccia, but incredibly light/chewy/crisp all at the same time. Oil seems to be key! A lot of big holes throughout. Somewhat 'stretchy' inside, but it is only really good the day it is made.

This is an elusive substance that I have only had from a couple of different places in Rome.. a little bar in the center that slices it and makes sandwiches with whatever filling or combo you like (fresh mozzarella, prosciutto, eggplant, peppers, at least a dozen in all..). Friends of ours live near a bakery that makes it and they buy it to accompany meals. But they are far away from us!!

Even though my oven project won't be done for a year or two, reading this board has made me want to get a jump on things!!

Does anyone A.) know what I am talking about, B.) Have a decent recipe I can try when the time comes?

The "pizza romana" (they also call it "pizza bianca") is a splendid animal, but it really is unlike any pizza crust or focaccia I have had anywhere, even in Italy. What makes it so different?

Bill/SFNM · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2006, 08:24:37 AM »

Grafica,

I had this at "Antico Forno" in the Campo de' Fiori (Somewhere in this forum, Marco mentions a place he says is much better). The book "It Must Have Been Something I Ate" by Jeffrey Steingarten has an entire chapter devoted to making this. I have made something close and it is one of my favorite things to make. My version uses a formula very similar to what I describe in the recent Focaccia thread. There are 3 keys to this: a very wet dough (>75%), forming the dough by rolling into tight cylinders for proofing, and stretching the dough out while loading it into the oven.

I start baking it on a very hot deck (700F) but after a minute or so remove it to a rack over the deck so that the bottom doesn't burn while it continues to bake. When it is done, it weighs almost nothing: light, full of enormous holes, and very,very good.

This is kind of sketchy and I'll be happy to elaborate if you can't find Steingarten's book. His approach is probably not very traditional, but the result is really quite authentic, and very delicious.

Bill/SFNM

ebpizza · « **Reply #2 on:** February 13, 2006, 08:38:21 AM »

send them an email, maybe they can help ;-)

http://www.fornocampodefiori.com/index.htm

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2006, 07:09:26 PM »

Pizza romana/pizza al taglio best example is at Pizzarium in Rome. It is a very high hydration dough (1.1kg flour per 1 litre of water), made with a particular mixing technique that produce a very strong gluten.

The follwoing is a simpler version (a modified version of my Sicilian recipe):

1000g Manitoba Flour (ready available in supermarkets, also called Americana)
750g Water
7g IDY
25g Sea Salt
50g EVO

In the morning when you wake up, mix the following as to make a poolish:
750gSemolina flour
750g Water (cold)
2g IDY
Then put everything in the fridge for 10-11 hours.

After that time, take it out of the fridge and add the remaining 250g of flour and 5g IDY. mix well and when all the flour has been absorbed, add the salt and oil.

The dough at this point will be very sticky, but do not panic. Wait 15 minutes (covering the mixing bowl) and then "break" the dough and mix again. You will notice that by doing this the dough will absorbe all the water and.

It may be necessary to repeat this process a couple of times until the dough will become less sticky.

Let it rest about an hour, then divide in portions of approximately 500-600g, and let it rest again 40 minutes to an hour in a warm place.

Once it has risen, flatten the dough, grease the baking tray, put the flat dough on it, put the topping and bake immediately.

grafica · « **Reply #4 on:** February 14, 2006, 05:59:29 AM »

Thanks, guys! Now I just have to wait to get my oven..! I'm going to copy these posts and file them away for reference. I also did order the Steingarten book.. looking forward to that when my sister ships it to me from the US.

Yum! I am getting hungry just thinking about it!

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2006, 06:24:42 PM »

Quote from: grafica on February 14, 2006, 05:59:29 AM

Thanks, guys! Now I just have to wait to get my oven..! I'm going to copy these posts and file them away for reference. I also did order the Steingarten book.. looking forward to that when my sister ships it to me from the US.

Yum! I am getting hungry just thinking about it!

for this type of focaccia (i do not call it pizza in Naples...) you do not need a wood oven, actually an electric oven is quite adeguate.

In a wood oven you would need to cook it without flame or with a realy low flame and the oven cooler (at about 280- 300 c) the for a Neapolitan pizza (just above bread baking temperature of 200 c BUT MUCH LOWER THEN THE 50OC needed for pizza napoletana).

grafica · « **Reply #6 on:** February 19, 2006, 12:57:31 PM »

My oven only goes up to 220-230° Centigrade right now..

..but thanks for your tip about the "cooler"oven, pizzanapoletana..

musiq · « **Reply #7 on:** March 18, 2006, 03:17:30 PM »

Quote from: Bill/SFNM on February 12, 2006, 08:24:37 AM

Grafica,

I had this at "Antico Forno" in the Campo de' Fiori (Somewhere in this forum, Marco mentions a place he says is much better). The book "It Must Have Been Something I Ate" by Jeffrey Steingarten has an entire chapter devoted to making this. I have made something close and it is one of my favorite things to make. My version uses a formula very similar to what I describe in the recent Focaccia thread. There are 3 keys to this: a very wet dough (>75%), forming the dough by rolling into tight cylinders for proofing, and stretching the dough out while loading it into the oven.

I start baking it on a very hot deck (700F) but after a minute or so remove it to a rack over the deck so that the bottom doesn't burn while it continues to bake. When it is done, it weighs almost nothing: light, full of enormous holes, and very,very good.

This is kind of sketchy and I'll be happy to elaborate if you can't find Steingarten's book. His approach is probably not very traditional, but the result is really quite authentic, and very delicious.

Bill/SFNM

I really would be interested in your "elaboration" of the recipe from that book..i've been trying to make a good pizza bianca for ages with not so good results..Nothing compared with the one you can have in Rome..i probably can find the book myself here in london, but in a couple of days i'm leaving to italy(milan unfortunately!) and i wont be back here till the 10th of april..can't wait that long!In the meantime i'm surely going to try pizzanapoletana's recipe....since i found this site i've been getting fatter and fatter...!

David · « **Reply #8 on:** March 18, 2006, 06:19:13 PM »

If you get the chance while in Milan,try out a pizzeria called "Trick-Trac" in the town of Legnano (Near to the hospital) not too far from Milan.I hear they make a very special type of Pizza,though not Romana.I missed it on my last visit,but told my Italian friends who live nearby about it and they tell me it is great. Amazing also they said, because here is a guy in the US discovering Pizza places to tell his Italian friends where to eat in Italy ! ;)Though I guess it's not unlike Marco telling us about Pizza in New York !!)
There is a bakery in a town called Busto also not far from Milan that makes a "lighter than Air " foccacia ,but I can't remember the name of it unfortunately.If I go back ,I'll be sure to write it down.......Enjoy your trip and be sure to report back.

musiq · « **Reply #9 on:** March 20, 2006, 06:13:50 PM »

Quote from: David on March 18, 2006, 06:19:13 PM

If you get the chance while in Milan,try out a pizzeria called "Trick-Trac" in the town of Legnano (Near to the hospital) not too far from Milan.I hear they make a very special type of Pizza,though not Romana.I missed it on my last visit,but told my Italian friends who live nearby about it and they tell me it is great. Amazing also they said, because here is a guy in the US discovering Pizza places to tell his Italian friends where to eat in Italy ! ;)Though I guess it's not unlike Marco telling us about Pizza in New York !!)
There is a bakery in a town called Busto also not far from Milan that makes a "lighter than Air " foccacia ,but I can't remember the name of it unfortunately.If I go back ,I'll be sure to write it down.......Enjoy your trip and be sure to report back.

It' s funny you're the one to tell the "milanesi" (people from milan) where to eat a good pizza...!Anyway ..i'm italian and spent in milan almost all my life (though being originally from rome)..i'm going back for a while to see my parents...never been in the pizzerie you talked about, probably because i live exactly on the other side of the city..!I've got a friend who's an expert, i'll enquiry him about those places...

But back to our topic...I did it!!.. i found the modified version of the steingarten recipe Bill/SFMN talks about on another topic here
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1464.0.html on reply #3

wanted to check the autenticity so i rushed to a library where i found the book and saw there are some differences..

The original recipe calls for 450 gr of flour versus 480(plus a 1/8 cup later) ...latter makes more sense, as the water is 470ml..

They give different timings for the first time you work the dough ..the original recipe says to work at minimum speed for 5 minutes than gradually increase the speed in the next 3 and then 10 minutes at the highest speed. After that do 2-3 cycles of 2 minutes each in which you work the dough at max speed, stop, scrape the dough from container, start again..

The author gives an advice on how to control the first rising. Before oiling the bowl in which you're gonna put the dough, fill it with 2 litres of water and the add 470ml...put a sign on this 2 levels, they will be your minimum and max rising volume.

The OR doesn't call for refrigeration, just wants you to let the dough rise for 90 minutes till it's 3 times its original volume (check levels anyway)

The most important part of the recipe, when you fold the dough in cylinders, it's carefully explained by the author. Basically you have to put the 4by12 rectangle with the longest side developing away from you. Then starting from the farther side, you take one inch of dough and fold it towards you , sealing it by pressing it down not too strongly. Go on like that till you're left with a cylinder.

The OR quantifies the second rise in 30-40 minutes.

The OR specifies not to make too deep dimples.

It calls for a 12 to 20 minutes cooking time, till golden brown, without any temperature advice.

This is all i can remember , i was in a rush and i haven't taken the book home as i'm leaving tomorrow, so everything was left to my memory..

I followed the modified recipe, but without any refrigeration....Don't have any stone or screen so i just used a normal pizza pan.

IT'S FANTASTIC!! It's just like the one in rome...i'm having it now, just out of the oven , with thin slices on italian ham melting on it...MMMMHHH!

Everyone should try that recipe, you won't regret it!!!

P.s. i think i'm feeling sick , i've eaten too much of it!...THANKS BILL!!

tonymark · « **Reply #10 on:** March 28, 2006, 05:45:23 PM »

Quote from: musiq on March 20, 2006, 06:13:50 PM

It calls for a 12 to 20 minutes cooking time, till golden brown, without any temperature advice.

How long did you cook yours and at what temperature?

TM

musiq · « **Reply #11 on:** March 29, 2006, 08:10:50 AM »

Quote from: tonymark on March 28, 2006, 05:45:23 PM

How long did you cook yours and at what temperature?

TM

20 minutes at 200 C(400F)...i think it could have cooked slightly less..

dieterschmied · « **Reply #12 on:** June 08, 2006, 06:31:14 PM »

what is IDY and EVO?

dieter@one.net

Pete-zza · « **Reply #13 on:** June 08, 2006, 06:34:32 PM »

diterschmied,

See EVOO and IDY in the Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html. For further information, you can also use the search (and Advanced search) features of the forum.

Peter

David · « **Reply #14 on:** June 24, 2006, 01:09:46 PM »

Quote from: Bill/SFNM on February 12, 2006, 08:24:37 AM

Grafica,

I had this at "Antico Forno" in the Campo de' Fiori (Somewhere in this forum, Marco mentions a place he says is much better). The book "It Must Have Been Something I Ate" by Jeffrey Steingarten has an entire chapter devoted to making this. I have made something close and it is one of my favorite things to make. My version uses a formula very similar to what I describe in the recent Focaccia thread. There are 3 keys to this: a very wet dough (>75%), forming the dough by rolling into tight cylinders for proofing, and stretching the dough out while loading it into the oven.

I start baking it on a very hot deck (700F) but after a minute or so remove it to a rack over the deck so that the bottom doesn't burn while it continues to bake. When it is done, it weighs almost nothing: light, full of enormous holes, and very,very good.

This is kind of sketchy and I'll be happy to elaborate if you can't find Steingarten's book. His approach is probably not very traditional, but the result is really quite authentic, and very delicious.

Bill/SFNM

Here are some beautiful pictures of thier Dough Bill.I just found them using another link from Scott!

http://www.thefoodsection.com/foodsection/2005/12/roman_pilgrimag_1.html

mrbthree · « **Reply #15 on:** February 25, 2007, 02:05:20 PM »

I am in the middle of my second batch of dough for this type of pizza. I am following the volumetric recipe that Marco provided in this thread. I am discovering that this dough is extremely difficult to work because it is so highly hydrated. I have measured everything to the gram; I am using Keith Guisto's(Central Milling, Utah) flours for this recipe.
I am, however, only using ambient temperatures to ferment the dough instead of retarding it in the fridge. The weather here is cool in the evening and only getting up to about 70F during the day.
Also, I do not posess a mixer: so this dough is made by hand. I don't know what would happen to this dough were I able to follow the rather elaborate mixing process referred to by Marco, and Mr. Steingarten.
The first batch was extremely difficult to stretch out before baking off so its thickness was inconsistent. BUT, it was the most flavorful bread I have ever made!
The instructions about rolling it into a cylinder baffles me,though. My dough is so wet, the very idea of shaping it into anything other than a blob is absurd. The photos that Scott provided from the forno in Rome give me hope, though. My doughs look almost like the doughs in his photos, although mine are even more wet. I think for the next batch, I'll leave the oil out of the dough, and brush the pizzas w/ oil just before loading them into the oven. Maybe this will make the dough a bit more manageable.
It really is a great tasting bread/pizza, though; just thought I'd let everyone know.
Happy Baking.

s_gilou · « **Reply #16 on:** October 04, 2012, 04:18:49 AM »

Hello,

In Marco's recipe, it says "1000g of Manitoba" in the list of ingredients and then it says "750g of semolina"
Is it a typo ? To my knowledge, Manitoba flour is not semolina!
Thanks

s_gilou · « **Reply #17 on:** October 04, 2012, 04:37:42 AM »

I guess I found the answer to my question. For this recipe we should use Manitoba. Marco just replaced semolina by manitoba in the sicilian recipe. He just did not replace it everywhere

Johnny the Gent · « **Reply #18 on:** April 06, 2013, 09:04:08 AM »

Quote from: pizzanapoletana on February 13, 2006, 07:09:26 PM

Pizza romana/pizza al taglio best example is at Pizzarium in Rome. It is a very high hydration dough (1.1kg flour per 1 litre of water), made with a particular mixing technique that produce a very strong gluten.

The follwoing is a simpler version (a modified version of my Sicilian recipe):

1000g Manitoba Flour (ready available in supermarkets, also called Americana)
750g Water
7g IDY
25g Sea Salt
50g EVO

In the morning when you wake up, mix the following as to make a poolish:
750gSemolina flour
750g Water (cold)
2g IDY
Then put everything in the fridge for 10-11 hours.

After that time, take it out of the fridge and add the remaining 250g of flour and 5g IDY. mix well and when all the flour has been absorbed, add the salt and oil.

The dough at this point will be very sticky, but do not panic. Wait 15 minutes (covering the mixing bowl) and then "break" the dough and mix again. You will notice that by doing this the dough will absorbe all the water and.

It may be necessary to repeat this process a couple of times until the dough will become less sticky.

Let it rest about an hour, then divide in portions of approximately 500-600g, and let it rest again 40 minutes to an hour in a warm place.

Once it has risen, flatten the dough, grease the baking tray, put the flat dough on it, put the topping and bake immediately.

I tried this recipe a couple of weeks ago, and here's what I came up with. My wife saw this straw-colored, rectangular, bubbly dough mass moments before being transferred to the pan - heavily dusted with semola remacinata. She stopped and looked, and asked, "this is a different kind of dough, huh? Is this a pizza dough?"

norma427 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2013, 01:47:47 PM »

Johnny the Gent,

That crumb looks so delicious!

I think you did a perfect job in making that Pizzarium style of pizza.

Norma