Author Topic: My fellow reballers!  (Read 13250 times)

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Offline jvp123

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #350 on: May 20, 2015, 01:30:24 PM »
I know this long kneading stuff is all old news to you Peter.  But to let you know where I am coming from, in the above experiment I used the stretch and fold on the one hand because I knew I would make a strong dough, versus a six minute machine mix which I knew would be much less strong...  I am sure if I increased the machine knead time the differences would start to disappear.  Having said that, I am more intrigued than ever with the stretch and fold process because of the strength created versus the work it actually takes.  And after re reading the methods of Bill (the long kneader), I think the results he gained in oven spring etc was a direct result of dough strength more than anything else.  Fun, fun read Peter!

John

Hi John,

I am very late to this party and trying to play a little catch up.  ::)  It seems there are many members who like what reballing does to their crust characteristics so I am exploring the possibility of incorporating it into my routine. 

You mention dough "strength" and I'm trying to understand what that means.  Wouldn't dough "strength" be the same as elasticity, which would mean the DBs would potentially be difficult to open?  My non reball DBs open in literally 15 seconds, but when I recently did a reball 6 hours prior to baking, the DBs took several minutes to open, shrank back on the peel and had thin spots and some tearing.  :'(  Obviously something went wrong along the way as I'm sure that is not something you experience, but just trying to understand why you like a "strong" dough.
Jeff


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #351 on: May 20, 2015, 01:45:47 PM »
Jeff,

Dough strength is a difficult concept to describe in words. However, maybe this article by Didier Rosada will help:

http://sfbi.com/pdfs/NewsF04a.pdf

Peter

Offline jvp123

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #352 on: May 20, 2015, 02:17:53 PM »
Thanks so much Peter.  That article was perfect!
Jeff

Offline rparker

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #353 on: May 20, 2015, 02:19:06 PM »
But no photos???!!! Please!!
Yeah, bad on me.  :-[   

I had one slice left over. This is taken about 90 minutes after bake, and about 20 minutes in the fridge with the slice LO from yesterday's molasses experiment(unrelated). I tore back the outer ring a bit so you could get an idea of the texture. I got some sauce-cheese-pepperoni grease wrapping around the under-side, but it was still solid. It never lost that bite through like there was some small fluffy layer on top of a small crisp that never went away. 

On the outer ring, this is with effort to have very minimal outer ring spring. I was not delicate.

Note there is no soak-through like I was getting before aforementioned rabbit hole.  I even used extra sauce again.

550F inside oven for 7 minutes.
Maybe they should just make white T-shirts with pizza juice stains already on them.

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #354 on: May 20, 2015, 04:42:29 PM »
Yes, very nice! Thanks Roy!

Offline fazzari

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #355 on: May 21, 2015, 01:38:19 AM »
Jeff,

Dough strength is a difficult concept to describe in words. However, maybe this article by Didier Rosada will help:

http://sfbi.com/pdfs/NewsF04a.pdf

Peter
Hey Peter
I was reading the above info you posted for Jeff, and I came across two sections that particularly caught my eye.  One is in regard to using an autolyse and the other is in regard to longer mixing times.  I'm thinking about these two sections as they might relate to the stretch and fold method.  Is it possible that the rest times between folding could be thought of similarly to an autolyse??  Here are the sections which intrigued me:
"When using an autolyse process, a baker automatically changes the characteristics of the gluten.  By allowing the incorporated flour and water to rest for a certain period of time, proteins will have more time to absorb the water and create better bonds that will improve the structure of the gluten network".

Although the next section deals with mixing times, I'm thinking of his words in regard to the stretch and fold method....maybe I'm stretching it:
"Longer mixing times mechanically stretch and fold the gluten strands for a longer period of time.  As a result, the chains of gluten will be longer and more bonded together, creating a more organized gluten structure".

Any thoughts appreciated
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #356 on: May 21, 2015, 01:50:14 AM »
Hi John,

I am very late to this party and trying to play a little catch up.  ::)  It seems there are many members who like what reballing does to their crust characteristics so I am exploring the possibility of incorporating it into my routine. 

You mention dough "strength" and I'm trying to understand what that means.  Wouldn't dough "strength" be the same as elasticity, which would mean the DBs would potentially be difficult to open?  My non reball DBs open in literally 15 seconds, but when I recently did a reball 6 hours prior to baking, the DBs took several minutes to open, shrank back on the peel and had thin spots and some tearing.  :'(  Obviously something went wrong along the way as I'm sure that is not something you experience, but just trying to understand why you like a "strong" dough.

Jeff
If you really want a good education make some doughballs of differing strengths....you can use different mixing times say maybe 6 minutes compared to 12 minutes.  Or use differing numbers of stretch and folds if that is the method you prefer.  Ball the doughs after mix, and then experience how the differing strengths of dough open up and bake for you after they have fermented.  You will see a remarkable difference, but only you can choose what you like better.  After that, its on to bulk fermentation, and then you can observe what balling closer to bake time does to the texture of dough.
This is how you can experience what a stronger dough can do for you.

John

Offline Essen1

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #357 on: May 21, 2015, 02:11:06 AM »
Hi John,

I am very late to this party and trying to play a little catch up.  ::)  It seems there are many members who like what reballing does to their crust characteristics so I am exploring the possibility of incorporating it into my routine. 

You mention dough "strength" and I'm trying to understand what that means.  Wouldn't dough "strength" be the same as elasticity, which would mean the DBs would potentially be difficult to open?  My non reball DBs open in literally 15 seconds, but when I recently did a reball 6 hours prior to baking, the DBs took several minutes to open, shrank back on the peel and had thin spots and some tearing.  :'(  Obviously something went wrong along the way as I'm sure that is not something you experience, but just trying to understand why you like a "strong" dough.

Jeff,

The PDF Peter posted is a great reference.

Lots of factors go in to making a great dough. The main one is the choice of flour and mixing. If you are not familiar with a certain flour, get to know it. Try it. Experiment.

The Power I use is an excellent flour and great for pizzas. Most pizzerias use it because of its versatility. Central Milling also makes exceptional flours I highly recommend looking into.

But most importantly...get to know your oven. Every oven is different, as we found out.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #358 on: May 21, 2015, 10:34:33 AM »
Hey Peter
I was reading the above info you posted for Jeff, and I came across two sections that particularly caught my eye.  One is in regard to using an autolyse and the other is in regard to longer mixing times.  I'm thinking about these two sections as they might relate to the stretch and fold method.  Is it possible that the rest times between folding could be thought of similarly to an autolyse??  Here are the sections which intrigued me:
"When using an autolyse process, a baker automatically changes the characteristics of the gluten.  By allowing the incorporated flour and water to rest for a certain period of time, proteins will have more time to absorb the water and create better bonds that will improve the structure of the gluten network".

Although the next section deals with mixing times, I'm thinking of his words in regard to the stretch and fold method....maybe I'm stretching it:
"Longer mixing times mechanically stretch and fold the gluten strands for a longer period of time.  As a result, the chains of gluten will be longer and more bonded together, creating a more organized gluten structure".

Any thoughts appreciated
John
John,

Technically, the autolyse as contemplated by Prof. Raymond Calvel, the father of autolysis, included only flour and water. The salt and yeast were added later in the dough making process. During the autolyse rest period, there is improved hydration of the flour, as you mentioned, but there are enzymes (protease) that are also at work to soften the gluten and improve the extensibility of the dough. One of the benefits of the autolyse method was to shorten the total mix time. By so doing, there was less oxidation of the dough (by about 15%) and, therefore, less bleaching or whitening of the flour, and less harm to the carotenoids in the flour that Prof. Calvel considered to be "flavor carriers". Notably, the Calvel autolyse rest period was brief. He would make 75 pounds of dough and not use more than a 30 minute autolyse rest period. For some bread doughs, the rest period was only 13-18 minutes.

In your case, even though you have all of the ingredients in the dough at the same time, the flour will still hydrate better because of the rest periods between stretch and folds, and the protease enzymes will still be at work. A potential risk with too many stretch and folds and/or not enough rest time between the stretch and folds is that the dough can become too strong. I do not believe that the stretch and folds will overoxidize the dough because the salt in the dough is an antioxidant and should prevent the dough from overoxidation. So the color of the dough should not lighten. I am not sure that stretch and folds can harm the carotenoids to any material degree and affect the flavors. 

With respect to your reference to the increased mix times that Didier Rosada talked about, he was referring to machine mixing, but I believe the same effects are produced by using manual stretch and folds or other forms of hand kneading. When Herbert Johnson invented the commercial mixer that was to become the Hobart mixer, he no doubt tried to simulate, and improve upon, the dough manipulation steps that people used during manual dough mixing. His invention changed the world of bread dough and pizza dough making but the mixers that were later developed for home use were, and remain, less effective than their commercial counterparts. I know that there are many people who believe that they can make a better dough by hand, using stretch and folds and the like, than most home stand mixers. That was perhaps true in your own case because you intentionally undermixed the dough using your stand mixer.

Peter


Offline jvp123

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #359 on: May 21, 2015, 10:57:21 AM »
Thanks for the replies John and Mike in regard to strength.  As I may have mentioned, I only asked this because recently I encountered my first very "elastic/tenacious" dough and I had major problems opening it.

John, I like the idea of experimentation; I experiment on almost every pie in some way or another  ::).  Since my epic fail last week, I am currently focusing on two things: mixing technique and bulk/ball fermenting.  (My main flour is Power flour and I usually blend in a bit of lower protein flower or 00 to make it less tough). 

Mike, I just received a Cordierite stone so I'll be trying that with my steel for a "2 stone" method.  At some point I may get a companion Cordierite stone if I love it. The reason I got this stone is because my steel was just scorching the bottoms of my pies too fast - I am hoping the stone will mellow that out a bit.  I am also going to play with baking temperature as well.  So I guess I am focussing on more than two things (forget what I said above about that  :-D).

I have a son's Bday party tomorrow and an adult party on Saturday.  I am making pizza for both occasions and am experimenting on both:

1 Tomorrow's kid's bday party bake involves a 24 hour bulk and a 24 hour ball fermentation. (2 days total) (50 Power/ 50 GM Superlative, IDY/SD)  I am going to try lower heat for the kids (they like less "color") at 500 convect (I am testing this to see if I can get my bottom to slow down a little in relation to the top - perhaps the new stone will help this too).

2. Saturday's adult party involves a 2 day bulk and a 24 hour ball fermentation (3 days total) (70 Power/30 00, IDY/SD).  This will also be "2 stone," but will be at 550 convect.

Mixing technique was same although the way the ingredients were incorporated was slightly different.  Both had a 20 minute rest period after incorporating the wet and dry ingredients. Then there was a 6-7 minute KA stir to bring everything together nicely, but not too much.  Bulk was put on bench to rest 10 minutes.  Then gently gathered up into a semi smooth ball and placed in bulk container.
My goal was to not over mix so dough wouldn't be too elastic and "strong," but not too under-mixed either.  I was hoping gluten would develop over my 2 or 3 day ferment so I didn't need to over mix. 

Anyway, that's it. Will report back.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 11:06:18 AM by jvp123 »
Jeff

Offline Essen1

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #360 on: May 21, 2015, 02:00:29 PM »
Jeff,

I'm not sure if a bench rest of only 10 mins is enough to relax the gluten after the dough just got a workout in the mixer. I always do a 60 min bench rest regardless of mixing times.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline jvp123

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #361 on: May 21, 2015, 05:00:46 PM »
Jeff,

I'm not sure if a bench rest of only 10 mins is enough to relax the gluten after the dough just got a workout in the mixer. I always do a 60 min bench rest regardless of mixing times.

My fermentation times are longer than yours though so I don't want the yeast to do too much too early.
Jeff

Offline fazzari

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #362 on: May 21, 2015, 08:15:18 PM »
John,

Technically, the autolyse as contemplated by Prof. Raymond Calvel, the father of autolysis, included only flour and water. The salt and yeast were added later in the dough making process. During the autolyse rest period, there is improved hydration of the flour, as you mentioned, but there are enzymes (protease) that are also at work to soften the gluten and improve the extensibility of the dough. One of the benefits of the autolyse method was to shorten the total mix time. By so doing, there was less oxidation of the dough (by about 15%) and, therefore, less bleaching or whitening of the flour, and less harm to the carotenoids in the flour that Prof. Calvel considered to be "flavor carriers". Notably, the Calvel autolyse rest period was brief. He would make 75 pounds of dough and not use more than a 30 minute autolyse rest period. For some bread doughs, the rest period was only 13-18 minutes.

In your case, even though you have all of the ingredients in the dough at the same time, the flour will still hydrate better because of the rest periods between stretch and folds, and the protease enzymes will still be at work. A potential risk with too many stretch and folds and/or not enough rest time between the stretch and folds is that the dough can become too strong. I do not believe that the stretch and folds will overoxidize the dough because the salt in the dough is an antioxidant and should prevent the dough from overoxidation. So the color of the dough should not lighten. I am not sure that stretch and folds can harm the carotenoids to any material degree and affect the flavors. 

With respect to your reference to the increased mix times that Didier Rosada talked about, he was referring to machine mixing, but I believe the same effects are produced by using manual stretch and folds or other forms of hand kneading. When Herbert Johnson invented the commercial mixer that was to become the Hobart mixer, he no doubt tried to simulate, and improve upon, the dough manipulation steps that people used during manual dough mixing. His invention changed the world of bread dough and pizza dough making but the mixers that were later developed for home use were, and remain, less effective than their commercial counterparts. I know that there are many people who believe that they can make a better dough by hand, using stretch and folds and the like, than most home stand mixers. That was perhaps true in your own case because you intentionally undermixed the dough using your stand mixer.

Peter
Thanks for your thoughts Peter
john

Offline fazzari

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #363 on: May 21, 2015, 08:20:33 PM »
A very interesting and unexpected conclusion to this little exercise.  Each of the following doughs is 140 hours old, and was balled 10 hours prior to bake.  The first three are of the undermixed dough, the second three of the folded dough.  These pizzas are very close with the edge going to the folded dough.  Both had good spring, good color and baked quickly.  Folded dough a little crisper....but what great pizzas considering their age.
John

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #364 on: Today at 05:51:58 AM »
Hi Guys

Can anyone work out the TF for this formula?

Flour (100%):    217.43 g  |  7.67 oz | 0.48 lbs
Water (64%):    139.16 g  |  4.91 oz | 0.31 lbs
IDY (0.5%):    1.09 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Salt (3%):    6.52 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.17 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2%):    4.35 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
Total (169.5%):   368.55 g | 13 oz | 0.81 lbs | TF = N/A \


I want to scale the size down from 12" to 8". Above formula is from the first post in this thread.

Thanks

Regards Mo

Offline dsissitka

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Re: My fellow reballers!
« Reply #365 on: Today at 07:56:11 AM »
Sure. Thickness factor is just ounces of dough per square inch.

Thickness Factor = Ounces / Square Inches

Ounces = 13

Square Inches = pi * radius * radius (Area of a circle.) = 3.141 * 6 * 6 = 113.076

Thickness Factor = 13 / 113.076 = 0.114966925

So, roughly 0.115.