Author Topic: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza  (Read 13593 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1040 on: March 25, 2015, 01:45:32 PM »

In all honesty, I too think there is such a thing as "too much" when it comes to the crust, and think the newer Vinnie Pies have crossed that line, LOL.


Bob,

I agree that the newer Vinnie's pies have crossed the lines in the bigger rim and how much cheese they put on them.   :-D

I really don't think you need a preferment to get a good flavor in the crust.  That can come from having a good dough formulation.  To get oven spring in the crust isn't hard either.  Maybe if you are looking for a Vinnie's pie of long ago you might just want to go to a straight dough with more days of fermentation.  If you really want to reproduce how Vinnie went about making that pizza it could take a lot more work.

The one photo you can find of Vinnie's pies of long ago looks like a great NY style pizza.

Norma
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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1041 on: March 25, 2015, 02:17:35 PM »
Bob,

I agree that the newer Vinnie's pies have crossed the lines in the bigger rim and how much cheese they put on them.   :-D

I really don't think you need a preferment to get a good flavor in the crust.  That can come from having a good dough formulation.  To get oven spring in the crust isn't hard either.  Maybe if you are looking for a Vinnie's pie of long ago you might just want to go to a straight dough with more days of fermentation.  If you really want to reproduce how Vinnie went about making that pizza it could take a lot more work.

The one photo you can find of Vinnie's pies of long ago looks like a great NY style pizza.

Norma

Yes, the pools of grease are off limits here, too.  I am at the point where I'm, literally weighing the cheese trying to get just below that "too much grease"  threshold.  Vincent just threw it on.  Usually there wasn't a pool, but sometimes there was some.  I tried some smoked cheese last time and nobody noticed.  Maybe I need to up the percentage of the smoked till it has an impact.  I think its a bit saltier as well as smoky.

His pizza on the inside really was like NY pizza, but his rim was double that of what I had in NYC out on LI.  But I think the flavors and doneness were similar.  I have yet to find that level of quality out here in the midwest, but lately I don't go out much.  There probably IS good pizza here someplace, but not being a huge deep dish fan, and not being rich anymore, the options are limited.

I may well get it right tonight.  Stranger things have happened.  I intend to toss it, not try to shape it by hand...
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 02:20:00 PM by BobC »

Online norma427

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1042 on: March 25, 2015, 05:36:03 PM »
Yes, the pools of grease are off limits here, too.  I am at the point where I'm, literally weighing the cheese trying to get just below that "too much grease"  threshold.  Vincent just threw it on.  Usually there wasn't a pool, but sometimes there was some.  I tried some smoked cheese last time and nobody noticed.  Maybe I need to up the percentage of the smoked till it has an impact.  I think its a bit saltier as well as smoky.

His pizza on the inside really was like NY pizza, but his rim was double that of what I had in NYC out on LI.  But I think the flavors and doneness were similar.  I have yet to find that level of quality out here in the midwest, but lately I don't go out much.  There probably IS good pizza here someplace, but not being a huge deep dish fan, and not being rich anymore, the options are limited.

I may well get it right tonight.  Stranger things have happened.  I intend to toss it, not try to shape it by hand...

BobC,

I love a good greasy cheese on a pizza, but agree with you about there is a limit for me too.  I used half smoked provolone and half of the cheddar I use at market, but put too much on the attempts I have made. 

I have been to NYC and tried many NY style pizzas.  Most of the rim crusts aren't big. If you look around here on the forum under NY style pizzas you will see some with bigger rim crusts that are somewhat like you are trying to describe.  Maybe you want to go back and look at scott r's post at Reply 696 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36842.msg369816#msg369816 and at Reply 703 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36842.msg369840#msg369840  Scott used a TF of 0.0972 as Paul posted in Reply 713  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36842.msg369979#msg369979  That seems more in line with a NY style pizza.  If you want the rim crust a little less bigger you could adjust the TF down a little.

I hope you do get it right tonight.  That would be great!  8)

Norma
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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1043 on: March 25, 2015, 07:16:12 PM »
Norma,

I have to admit that I'm not used to cheddar on a pizza.

I appear to have solved all problems but one new one.

Really it tasted good.  I will try a touch more salt next time, though.  I thought I had that right, but I think its off just a tiny bit.  I will check and see what Scott R suggested for salt level.

I got the crispy bottom, springy bubbles, airy holes and crunchy top.  But a new problem appeared.  The bottom was crispy, but it was kind of tough to bite through?  I wonder if that was because I switched stones after 6 min and baked till 10 min?


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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1044 on: March 25, 2015, 08:12:07 PM »
Norma,

I have to admit that I'm not used to cheddar on a pizza.

I appear to have solved all problems but one new one.

Really it tasted good.  I will try a touch more salt next time, though.  I thought I had that right, but I think its off just a tiny bit.  I will check and see what Scott R suggested for salt level.

I got the crispy bottom, springy bubbles, airy holes and crunchy top.  But a new problem appeared.  The bottom was crispy, but it was kind of tough to bite through?  I wonder if that was because I switched stones after 6 min and baked till 10 min?

BobC,

The cheddar I use on my pizzas is almost like a good mozzarella, but has a little more fat content.  I don't think you would know it was cheddar if I didn't tell you.

When changing one thing another problem can easily happen.  If you don't know what your oven temperature really are, it is hard to diagnose what is going on with your bakes.

Norma
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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1045 on: March 25, 2015, 09:15:58 PM »
BobC,

The cheddar I use on my pizzas is almost like a good mozzarella, but has a little more fat content.  I don't think you would know it was cheddar if I didn't tell you.

When changing one thing another problem can easily happen.  If you don't know what your oven temperature really are, it is hard to diagnose what is going on with your bakes.

Norma

Norma,

It must be a very mild cheddar.  Something I like on a pizza is half mozzarella and half muenster.

Its true that I don't have anything but the thermostat.  The one thing I'm very sure of is that I can't get it any hotter beforehand.

I had it on bake with temperature to maximum for 75 min, then on broil for 15 min, then put the pizza in onto the thinner 15" stone which was on the higher shelf, and switched the oven to bake.  After 6 min of baking on the top shelf, I opened it and moved the pizza onto the lower stone which is only 13" but thicker, and closed the door and turned it down to 500.   4 min later I checked it and it didn't look like the bottom was done, so I closed the door and waited 1 more min, and then pulled it out.

In general, what would cause the crust to be crispy but kind of tough to bite through?

PS:  Maybe next time I'll put the big stone back on the bottom shelf and do everything on bake at max temp like I was doing.  I didn't have this problem before.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 09:30:14 PM by BobC »

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1046 on: March 25, 2015, 09:51:58 PM »
Bob, an IR thermometer can be a big help in getting the right temps.

But time and time again we see the home oven be a major limiting factor in replicating the clone of a professional pizza.
You're doing pretty well all things considered.

Too chewy...
maybe too much bench flour
sitting too long before eating
excessive gluten development
??
Charles

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1047 on: March 25, 2015, 11:36:59 PM »
Only the bottom was "tough".  It was crisp like I wanted, but tough.  The rim and rest of the crust were fine.  It was a little chewy, but a nice chewy.

Is it possible that using the 2 stones and the longer bake caused it?
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 12:16:54 AM by BobC »

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1048 on: Yesterday at 07:18:06 AM »
Only the bottom was "tough".  It was crisp like I wanted, but tough.  The rim and rest of the crust were fine.  It was a little chewy, but a nice chewy.

Is it possible that using the 2 stones and the longer bake caused it?

BobC,

As Charles posted at Reply 1046 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36842.msg372380#msg372380 there could be multiple reasons the bottom crust was tough.  It might your baking method wasn't right, but it also could be that many other variables caused a tough crust even though it was crispy. 

Norma
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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #1049 on: Yesterday at 11:01:01 AM »
BobC,

As Charles posted at Reply 1046 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36842.msg372380#msg372380 there could be multiple reasons the bottom crust was tough.  It might your baking method wasn't right, but it also could be that many other variables caused a tough crust even though it was crispy. 

Norma

I would think if the dough had been the problem, it would have affected all the crust, not just the bottom.  I think I will just make minimal changes to the recipe and go back to just using the one stone on the bottom, and see if its able to bake it this time. 

My worry is that with the higher hydration and a heavier dough ball that  it will kill the heat from the stone and I won't get a crispy bottom or crunchy top, and I'll end up with bready pizza again.  I suppose if that happens again, I'll try lowering the hydration another notch the next round.


 

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