Author Topic: TF and Flavor?  (Read 249 times)

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Offline rparker

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TF and Flavor?
« on: December 11, 2014, 05:59:34 PM »
What's the dynamic at work for low (.070) TF pies that seem to make the sauce more succulent and maybe even sweeter tasting? Is it as simple as low TF pies allowing heat to get to the sauce from the bottom quicker than higher (.095) TF?

I guess my main question is this. If my sauce and cheese bubbling decrease due to higher TF, is there a way to get some or all of that bubbling back? It still bubbles, but not as rapidly. 

Here are some possible pertinent observations.
We do not like cracker crust, but we like a good crunch.
We also like a good chew. 
We like the functionality of a .095 TF as far as the fold and toppings support.
I'm using a modified glutenboy formula and cooking in a wide range of temps and times.
There appears to be a related factor of a very rapid cheese and sauce bubbling during baking and increased flavor. That can quickly backfire into an ugly sauce/cheese lake of too much is used or bubbling for too long.
There might be a correlation between how quickly the cheese and sauce comes to a bubble and increased flavor.




Offline wahoo88

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Re: TF and Flavor?
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2014, 10:48:24 AM »
If what you are saying is that you like a sweeter sauce, which you attribute to the sauce cooking more, then I would just suggest cooking the sauce (or cooking the sauce more) before putting it on the pies.

By the way, I'm not trying to sound like a smart-ass. 
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 10:55:15 AM by wahoo88 »

Offline rparker

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Re: TF and Flavor?
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2014, 11:33:12 AM »
If what you are saying is that you like a sweeter sauce, which you attribute to the sauce cooking more, then I would just suggest cooking the sauce (or cooking the sauce more) before putting it on the pies.

By the way, I'm not trying to sound like a smart-ass.
Thanks for the comment and thought. I hear where you're coming from and have worked on it to that end in the past. No luck so far. I have tried a huge variety of methods(times & temps) and ingredients. I can get to a more modern American flavor without issue. Even a sweet quality, but not the same as what I'm describing poorly. While not unique to my kitchen, it is certainly distinct. I've recognized it at some NY style pizza joints, and although not always consistent. I know all that probably didn't help a bit.  ::)   

I suggested there "might" be and "appears" to be some sort of relationship between sauce cooking for very short period of time with cheese(s) on a pizza. Maybe the sauce and the oils and sugars from the cheeses? Heck, could be granulated garlic that hasn't been part of a sauce for 4 days. Part of that sweetness flavor might be sort of a fresh flavor to the extent that a pre-cooked canned can be fresh? I can get the fresh from can taste with ease, though, and is not the same or is just an element of the flavor.

One thing is certain. I have never gotten close to it by pre-cooking or pre-heating sauce. Some great dipping sauces, though.  ;D

Again,  all that probably didn't help a bit.  :-D 

Offline wahoo88

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Re: TF and Flavor?
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2014, 12:23:52 PM »
When the cheese is bubbling vigorously, it has probably broken down and thus the oils from the cheese have been released into the sauce. The fix for this theory would be either putting warmer cheese on the pizza or getting more top heat.

Also, what kind of cheese are you using?  I know that people sometimes note that the best full fat mozzarellas have a buttery flavor which may contribute to a better sauce flavor once the cheese breaks down.

So, in short, what I just poorly tried to say was (all other things being equal):
Thinner crust -> cheese heats faster -> cheese has chance to break -> releasing flavorful oils into sauce
Better cheese -> more fat -> more fat in sauce -> more flavor in sauce

Oh, and am I correct in saying that:
There has not been correlation between presence of pepperoni and this certain quality of the sauce? 
The ratio of dough:sauce:cheese doesn't change based on TF?

I hope others can comment on this as well.

Offline rparker

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Re: TF and Flavor?
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2014, 03:17:49 PM »
When the cheese is bubbling vigorously, it has probably broken down and thus the oils from the cheese have been released into the sauce. The fix for this theory would be either putting warmer cheese on the pizza or getting more top heat.
Warmer, meaning coming up towards room temp?
Regardless, that certainly makes sense. I know the orange oil thing is certainly favorable for me, except when I've used too much cheese and sauce and get a weird looking gooey blend. It doesn't look appetizing, but sure tastes great. It may very well part of the equation. 

Also, what kind of cheese are you using?
I most often use Sorrento, whole milk. I did use Cabot pre-shredded part skim last night and did not quite get there. It seemed dry, like almost over cooked. In fairness, there were other factors that lead to a below average bake. User error to some extent at a minimum.

I know that people sometimes note that the best full fat mozzarellas have a buttery flavor which may contribute to a better sauce flavor once the cheese breaks down.
I've read that here. I'm not sure I've found that in a mozzarella. I add a very small amount of a high powered block form of Provolone to it. It does have that strong buttery smell, but a much stronger sharp taste to it. not a typical deli sliced flavor. I also use whatever parmesan cheese I have right on to the sauce. I've omitted both and been fine.

So, in short, what I just poorly tried to say was (all other things being equal):
Thinner crust -> cheese heats faster -> cheese has chance to break -> releasing flavorful oils into sauce
Better cheese -> more fat -> more fat in sauce -> more flavor in sauce
Not poorly stated at all. Great information share. Kudos, and thanks!  I really want to stick with ingredients found in local stores, but should probably give one of the brands with a better reputation in this forum a shot. I understand Grande to be tops in at least good and readily used, so will be sure to include. 

Oh, and am I correct in saying that:
There has not been correlation between presence of pepperoni and this certain quality of the sauce? 
I'm not certain. My guess has always been that it needs to be there. This one should be easy to confirm one way or the other.

The ratio of dough:sauce:cheese doesn't change based on TF?
It has changed in the past, but I am adding more when going thicker TF these days. I don't think the bubbling rate is as high when TF is higher.  It's my understanding that some of the heat source comes through from the bottom, but perhaps it's not enough to matter?