Author Topic: gonna try to make a pizza today  (Read 1126 times)

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Offline jsaras

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2014, 11:59:36 AM »
You have yet to describe your dough formula, fermentation, baking setup (steel, stone, size), procedure, temperature, bake time (do you have an IR gun?) nor have you posted a picture.  ALL of these things have an impact on the final outcome.

If your cheese isn't completely  melted it's not going to release its butter fat, which is where the flavor is. I've heard mozz described a number of ways, but never as "sweet"; maybe "rich" or "creamy" and never once as "bitter".  Saputo, Grande, and other food service quality cheeses etc, are used by countless NY style pizzerias.  There's no "secret" that's being hidden.  However, there's a good chance that you aren't getting the most out of it.

Any sweet note in the pizza would logically be attributed to the sauce and/or basil.

The bitter note is probably coming from using whole wheat.  Since you are striving for authenticity the wheat is the first thing you should ditch.  The consensus is that the protein content of Sir Lancelot flour is too high for NY pizza. Save it for bagels.

Any great pizza made in any style has all of its ingredients working together harmoniously.  The first law of the kitchen is "garbage in, garbage out".  If you think that you're getting the same results with lesser ingredients, then the ingredients aren't the issue.   

Nailing the cheese/sauce ratio on a plain cheese pie is an elusive thing.  A picture of your finished pie would give us a clue as to whether or not you're in the neighborhood there. 

I looked up the pizza places you mentioned and their slices look similar and they both use low moisture mozz on some of their pizzas and fresh mozz on others.   One thing to remember about slice joints is that the reheating process changes the crust texture (gets crispier) and the toppings change a bit as well (cheese definitely gets more browning.

BTW, I've had pizza in Michigan and it's all substandard because they don't have NY water, so it's all pointless anyway.  Maybe it's time to make a Detroit-style pizza instead.
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Offline moose13

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2014, 01:03:59 PM »
**** i just wasted four minutes of my life.  >:(

Offline Essen1

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2014, 02:13:38 PM »
Now I understand that this is very insulting, like someone already pointed out and I apologize in advance but I am going to be honest with you guys. The truth is, I am a skeptic and I just do not believe in you guys. I spent months and months following every bit of advice on this forum on how to make NY style pizza and trying all the recommended ingredients and my best pizzas were not even half as good as a local place I go here in Michigan that sells NY style pizza which I thought makes a pretty good NY style pizza. Well, it had been 8 years since I last went to New York and had the real thing and I guess I forgot how good it waqs because after sampling the pizza in Manhatten, I realized that the pizza from the NY style place in Michigan that I like, is garbage in comparison. Garbage I tell you! So basically, following the advice on this site to the best of my ability, I was not even able to make pizza that was even half as good as the garbage I get here.

So that is why I am giving up and not at all hopeful that you  guys can help me. And that is why I am skeptical and think you guys probably just have really low standards or poor taste buds or cant remember what real NY pizza taste like. I know its insulting, but what am I supposed to think? I am just stupid and cant make pizza when you all can? I'm sorry, but I just find it difficult to believe that you guys are cranking out pizza that tastes like Little Italy in your home ovens.

Then why don't you take your "Skepticism" and get the hell off the board if we can't be trusted?  Shaking my head here...
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 04:30:59 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline scott123

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2014, 02:32:27 PM »
Peter,

I went back and read every post that you've written in the past four years.  During this time, you've utilized the following ingredients/processes:

whole wheat flour
organic unmalted flour
low conductivity stone
weak top heat
oiling the skin
vital wheat gluten
sourdough
adding yeast to already mixed dough
adding the wrong kind of malted barley (non diastatic)
kasl
provolone

I can guarantee you, with absolutely no uncertain terms, that Suprema isn't doing any of this, nor were any of the pizzerias that you frequented while growing up in NJ. No one on this forum that's well versed in NY style pizza ever led you down these paths, either.  I'm sorry, but these wasted years are entirely on you, not us.

As of last year, you mentioned finally getting around to using KABF, but it was in the context of being relatively happy with what you were producing and offering help rather than asking for it.

In the four years that you've been here, you've never posted your dough making process (great pizza- and good tasting cheese, is incredibly process dependent) and, by the time you got around to using a viable flour (3 years into your journey), you had stopped asking for help- or providing any kind of information that would help us help you. The last time you posted a formula was 4 years ago. You're acting like you've tried it all and come up empty handed, but, in essence, you've made some incredibly poor choices for at least 3 out of the past 4 years, and, because of all this wasted time, you're still just a beginner.

Instead of throwing in the towel, now is the perfect time to get back on the horse.  Let's face it, you've made just about every possible rookie error you could make- there's really no other pitfalls for you to fall into :) You've talked about local pizza stressing your budget.  Are you in a position to spend that kind of money now? Or are you just going to go without?  Going without would be tragic, imo. It might not seem like you're almost there, but, believe me, you are.  I grew up in the NY area and have been eating pizza here all my life.  Ask anyone, my standards are anything but low  >:D  If you invest some more time, and provide us with enough information to actually help, you'll get the cheese taste you're looking for. 

Pizza Suprema is about as generic of a pizza as you can possibly find.  I KNOW you can create something on that level with relative ease.  You just have to communicate better. Help us help you.

Btw, in addition to being derelict in providing formula and process details, you've also never posted your sauce recipe.  A few times you've referenced specialty oregano.  Oregano is bitter. If you're using a lot of it, that might be where your bitterness is coming from. I use 1/16th t. dried oregano for 28 oz. crushed tomatoes. Garlic can also be bitter, depending on what you do with it and how much you use. Regardless of what's in your sauce, we can help you solve your bitter cheese issue.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 03:02:59 PM by scott123 »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2014, 04:16:08 PM »
Yes, this is hilarious. It can't be real. This guy is a troll.

If it's just the cheese, ask them where they get it. Most pizza places will sell you their ingredients.
Tiss a shame I am late to this party....I could have had a field day with this trapped behind knowledge guy.  >:D
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Offline Chaze215

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2014, 04:45:11 PM »
I saw this thread a while ago and didn't think it was worthy of a reply.
However, I've learned most from those on this board which sparked a passion to make a product better than the businesses around me at the Jersey Shore. That knowledge and passion has lead me to starting my own mobile wfo business to which I'm wrapping have up a very successful first full season . This guy can continue his pity party elsewhere and make more frequent trips to NYC. Good luck!
Chaz

Offline moose13

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2014, 04:53:24 PM »
I can see it actually.
I make the worlds worst Chinese.
So i just order from Twin Dragon. Oh Kung Pao Chicken. 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 05:13:05 PM by moose13 »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2014, 05:23:10 PM »
I appreciate everyone's kindness and helpfulness but you guys need to understand I made this thread to vent my frustration at not being able to make a good NY style pie. I don't really want help because like I said, I have given up.

I don't want to bother fiddling around with my dough recipe,

Now I understand that this is very insulting, like someone already pointed out and I apologize in advance but I am going to be honest with you guys. The truth is, I am a skeptic and I just do not believe in you guys.

So that is why I am giving up and not at all hopeful that you  guys can help me. And that is why I am skeptical and think you guys probably just have really low standards or poor taste buds or cant remember what real NY pizza taste like.
I am going to go have a talk with your mommy right now....and you`d better hope your father doesn`t find out about this young man!   :o
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Essen1

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2014, 05:54:09 PM »
I am going to go have a talk with your mommy right now....and you`d better hope your father doesn`t find out about this young man!   :o

You're too nice, Bob.  8)
Mike

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Offline Pizzalogy

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2014, 09:45:14 PM »
Alright, alright, you guys have convinced me to take one final look at this. I just needed assurance that making NY style pizza at a home oven was even possible, because like I said, I had begun to believe that I was putting all this time an effort into chasing a pipe dream that I would never achieve and I became frustrated and angry.

Now, I should also mention there is some chance I will be moving to Manhatten in a couple of months. That is actually why I was down there, to interview at an organization I might be joining, in which case I will not need to make pizza anymore because I will live right next to Little Italy. I accepted the position but they told me they  need one more week to decide whether or not they will accept me. Either way I will be happy because I know if I do accept, I will miss Michigan greatly and I hate cities.

First of all I should mention that my pizza making sort of veered off in two directions. My original goal was to make an NY style pie but as that proved an unreachable goal, I also decided to see how good of a pizza I could make judging it on own merit and not in comparison to NY style. So that is why you see a lot of the unconventional things like whole wheat flour and stuff like that. I was pretty happy with some of the non NY style pizzas I made for a while, but eventually I felt drawn back to my firstl love, which is NY style and that is when I met with further frustration.


Anyway, back to pizza.

So my dough recipe: I use the recipes in Jackie Tran's thread for the high hydration and I use KABF, ADY and a 2 day cold ferment. I sometimes use my bread machine to knead, other times by hand, honestly dont notice too much difference in the result. I was semi-satisfied with my crusts until visiting Manhatten, I now realize they need to be much more elastic and light and less bready tasting. Anyone know how to get those results?


Sauce recipe: I use the 6 in one brand crushed tomatoes in heavy puree, all I do is mix in some salt, oregano, basil and sometimes a hint garlic powder, onion powder and black pepper and that's it for the sauce. I have also used the stanislaus brand tomato products but I don't feel that they are necessarily better than the 6 in 1 and I can only get those in the restaurant size cans, which is why I prefer 6 in 1. Neither oregano, nor whole wheat flour (happens even with plain white flour) is where the bitterness is coming from, essentially the cheese in my own oven never tastes like the cheese on professionally made pizza. I actually have purchased cheese from a pizzeria, used it on my pizza and still it did not taste like the cheese on their pizzas even though it was the same cheese.  It seems as though there is something in the cooking of the cheese I am not doing right and this is a major obstacle for me, although I always make sure its fully melted.

Cheese: My favorite is the granda whole milk Mozz, which is a great cheese let me tell you, I mean in terms of eating raw or cooking into other dishes I love it but on my pizza it still does not taste like the cheese on NY style pizza. Even my local Michigan NY style place (called Bella Italia) has much better tasting cheese than mine

I have a 16" fribromite pizza stone. SInce I moved and came into a new oven with a powerful broiler what I have been doing is starting the pizza in the oven and then after a couple of minutes,  moving it, stone and all down in the broiler to get as much top heart over the cheese as possible. Bake time is as little 5 minutes folllowing this method. Unfortunately however, the cheese still does not taste right. I don't have an oven thermometer, but let me tell you, it gets pretty hot in there. My sister does a lot of baking and she always complains that my oven is too hot and overcooks her baked good when she comes to visit.

Here are some pictures of pizzas from the past:

http://i61.tinypic.com/2quut6w.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/2eamejs.jpg


« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 09:59:22 PM by Pizzalogy »


Offline bigMoose

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2014, 09:58:40 PM »
You getting enough top heat on your pie?  ... are you pulling it at 5 min's because the bottom is done?

Offline Pizzalogy

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2014, 10:01:18 PM »
Actually, no, I pull it out at 5 minute because the broiler cooks the cheese so fast (and unevenly) that the hottest part of the pizza will start to burn if I leave in much longer. Lately I have been cooking it longer though, more time in the main oven and less in the broiler giving me perhaps an 8 minute bake time.

Offline jever4321

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2014, 10:21:45 PM »
IMO, black pepper has no business as an ingredient in pizza sauce... Sugar and basil are my go to spices with 6-1... Maybe a dash of salt for a touch of savory. I would also forgo the garlic powder in the sauce.  You could always sprinkle some on top of the slice of pizza on your plate,  same with oregano... Leave it out.  Keep it simple!

Just my .02
-Jay

Offline scott123

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2014, 07:40:07 AM »
Peter, the devil, as they say, is in the details. Without quantities, your sauce recipe is telling us very little.  Without a link to Chau's recipe, we're flying even blinder.  Please provide your most recent formula, and every step you take with the dough, from measuring the ingredients to baking. It's a lot of work, but it will ensure that we have all the necessary information to help.  If you want to go even a bit further, take a photo of the pre-refrigeration dough ball (top and bottom) along with the pre-stretch dough ball (top and bottom) and the stretched skin. Make sure you're using a clear proofing container so that the bottom of the dough is visible. But, obviously, post your formula and workflow here before you make dough again.

I've never tasted mozzarella that I'd ever consider bitter, and, during my 6 years on this forum, I've never read any posts that mentioned bitter cheese either.  Based on this, I'm almost certain that it's the sauce.  As a test, try a very simple sauce- the simplest.  Just crushed tomatoes, a little salt (to taste) and some sugar- just enough to cut some of the tartness of the tomato- maybe a t. or less. Use only mozzarella, no provolone, no parm.  Get some of the mozzarella from the pizzeria you like and use that.

Offline pythonic

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2014, 01:05:21 AM »
From first glance you need more heat or bake time.  Follow everything scott123 tells you.  He is the NY style guru around here.
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Offline zaafreak

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Re: gonna try to make a pizza today
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2014, 09:11:54 AM »
For starters:

1. Can the fibrament stone. Its conductivity (about .7 w/mK) is way too low for oven use. Get a piece of steel. Steel's conductivity is about 42 W/mK.

2. Get an IR temp gun. No more guessing.

3. Ditch the pepper in  the sauce.


 

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