Author Topic: More flavour in dough  (Read 19384 times)

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Online Chicago Bob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #840 on: September 16, 2014, 11:57:48 PM »
Bob,

Thank you for your kind comments!  I don't know what videos members might be interested in. 

I still have to ask Frank about the salt amount.

I knew my customers liked the taste of the sauce and cheese I used, but did not fully appreciate how it all comes together with the crust too, until this recent experiment with Frank's dough.

Norma
I don`t want to cause extra work for you Norma and you really have posted up many fine videos showing what goes on there at the Market.

But ya know...I do have one further request of a vid that I and many others would really enjoy seeing. If some day when the timing is right an your granddaughter or Louis could catch the vid...it would be waaay cool to see you talking with a customer that just bit into one of your pies/slices....I`m talking about one of theses regulars you often mention that come out of their way just to get your stuff...the discussion/interaction of why your pizza brings memories of the beach to them would be really cool.
Maybe you can make that vid happen some day....jus something to keep in the back of your mind if you please Miss Norma.   8)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #841 on: September 17, 2014, 06:30:41 AM »
Noma:  You are talking about the total balance of the pie in terms of taste and  how when 1 part is changed how it changes the  taste of the other ingredients.  I have tried to communicate this on the net via words but you got it.  This may be one of the confusions we have had over the 1 to 4 day dough taste. I judge a crust in relation to the entire pie taste.  Anyway, words/videos/pictures don't explain it.  One has to eat it to know if the balance is there.   That bland dough showed a big piece of the puzzle!  Walter
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 06:33:21 AM by waltertore »

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #842 on: September 17, 2014, 07:00:51 AM »

But ya know...I do have one further request of a vid that I and many others would really enjoy seeing. If some day when the timing is right an your granddaughter or Louis could catch the vid...it would be waaay cool to see you talking with a customer that just bit into one of your pies/slices....I`m talking about one of theses regulars you often mention that come out of their way just to get your stuff...the discussion/interaction of why your pizza brings memories of the beach to them would be really cool.
Maybe you can make that vid happen some day....jus something to keep in the back of your mind if you please Miss Norma.   8)

Bob,

I can ask some of my customers if they would like to explain on a video what they like about my pizzas.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #843 on: September 17, 2014, 07:08:11 AM »
Noma:  You are talking about the total balance of the pie in terms of taste and  how when 1 part is changed how it changes the  taste of the other ingredients.  I have tried to communicate this on the net via words but you got it.  This may be one of the confusions we have had over the 1 to 4 day dough taste. I judge a crust in relation to the entire pie taste.  Anyway, words/videos/pictures don't explain it.  One has to eat it to know if the balance is there.   That bland dough showed a big piece of the puzzle!  Walter

Walter,

Yes, I was talking about the total balance of the pie in terms of taste and how when one part is changed how it changes the taste of the other ingredients.  I know many pizzerias in my area use really good ingredients, but their crusts still taste like cardboard and then that throws the whole taste of their pizzas off.  I know photos/videos/words can't really explain what happens.  I agree one has to really eat a slice of pizza to really understand.  In my opinion a really good looking pizza in photos may not taste all that good.

I had sent a PM to Tom Lehmann awhile ago about pizza sauce, and what can make a pizza sauce taste better when baked on a pizza..  This is part of Tom's reply to me.

Norma;
Not having visited all of the N.Y. pizzerias (who has?) I can only speculate that, based on what I have seen, most probably do not add oil to the sauce, but back when we were actively studying sauce we found that there was a marked improvement in sauce flavor on the finished pizza when as little as 1% oil was used in the sauce. This is not due to the flavor of the oil, but instead due to the flavor encapsulating properties of the oil. During baking the oil captures and retains some of those great aromatics released during baking thus improving the flavor of the finished pizza. Think of why you ware always admonished your mother to keep the butter dish covered, or think infused oil. In some cases you may not always see an improvement in flavor though, as pizzas which are already heavily flavored (the majority of independent and chain store pizzas) make it difficult to detect any flavor differences. As a case in point,a number of years ago I was working with a pizza chain in the Bahamas to bring about an improvement in the flavor of their pizzas, they had already tried everything they could think of but to no avail, hence, I got called in. After looking at their sauce formulation all I did was to add oil to the sauce, and presto, we got the flavor they were looking for. The way I describe it to my students is to say, "you know how good a pizza smells when it's being baked, too bad your customers will never be able to appreciate or enjoy those aromas, they are volatile and lost forever (that's why you can smell them in the first place) but the addition of oil to the sauce or even the dough for that matter, will help to entrap some of those aromas and flavors thus allowing your customers to enjoy some of them as you do when baking your pizzas. Additionally, in a DELCO operation the use of oil in the sauce really helps to hole onto those flavors and aromas while the pizza is being delivered or taken home.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #844 on: September 17, 2014, 09:16:43 AM »
The taste of the crust was so bland that I think that affected the whole taste of the pizza.  My granddaughter and Luis also said the same thing.

Norma,

I believe that the blandness of Frank's crust was due almost entirely to the lack of sufficient salt. In fact, in my experience, whenever I hear someone say that a pizza crust is "bland", it is almost always due to insufficient salt. Based on the six dough balls that you made from Frank's dough, I estimate that the amount of salt per dough ball (with a weight of a bit over 20 ounces) was about 1/6 teaspoon. It was perhaps a bit lower than that because of the additional water that was added during mixing of the dough.

The lowest amount of salt that I can recall intentionally using was 1%. That was based on a recommendation by Evelyne Slomon and supposedly was typical of the salt levels that the NYC old timers used in the early days of the NY style of pizza. As it turned out, the finished crust was very bland. I found support of that conclusion at the AIB website at https://www.aibonline.org/aibOnline_/GenericForm.aspx?strOpen=\www.aibonline.org\researchandtechnical\faqs\pizza.html, where Tom Lehmann reported the following:

Salt levels below 1% of the flour weight in the dough will produce a crust with a very bland flavor.

About the lowest salt level that my palate can tolerate from a satisfaction standpoint is around 1.50% salt. But I prefer something in the 1.75-2% range. That is a range that most experts recommend, including Tom Lehmann, King Arthur (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html), and Prof. Calvel (he actually goes out to 2.2% for bread dough).

It might be natural to assume that because there is salt in the pizza sauce (either added to the tomatoes during canning or in preparing the pizza sauce) and in the cheese, those salt quantities will make up for a lack of adequate salt in the crust and the crust won't taste bland. However, in my experience, that has not been true. Maybe if there are salty meats on the pizza, like pepperoni or sausage, the crust blandness might not be detected but in my experience that also has not been true. At some point you will usually eat just some of the crust and it will be bland. I think it has to do with the "balance" thing that Walter and you have discussed. Everything, including salt levels, has to be in balance.

The low sugar and oil levels and the use of all-purpose flour also do not help Frank's dough. Sugar and oil are not essential ingredients for the NY style, but to get value out of them for taste purposes, they have to be at detectable levels. As for the amount of oil, Tom Lehmann has this to say at the aforementioned AIB website:

We have found that oil levels as low as 1% of the flour weight in the dough.......will exhibit a flavor enhancing affect, with a maximum benefit obtained at somewhere between 1.5 and 2% levels.

The use of all-purpose flour, even with its long history in pizza dough making, naturally leads to less crust flavor, and also color, because of its lower protein/gluten content compared with the higher protein flours used today and reduced denaturing of the protein and reduce Maillard reactions during baking. At low sugar levels, there will also be reduced caramelization.

I'm sure that in due course you will get the scoop on the salt issue. It is quite possible that what Frank was trying to do was to show was his way of making dough by hand, not an optimum dough from the standpoint of ingredients. I'm sure we will all be interested in seeing the recipe for the dough that you liked so much.

Peter


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #845 on: September 17, 2014, 09:28:48 AM »
It might be natural to assume that because there is salt in the pizza sauce (either added to the tomatoes during canning or in preparing the pizza sauce) and in the cheese, those salt quantities will make up for a lack of adequate salt in the crust and the crust won't taste bland. However, in my experience, that has not been true. Maybe if there are salty meats on the pizza, like pepperoni or sausage, the crust blandness might not be detected but in my experience that also has not been true. At some point you will usually eat just some of the crust and it will be bland. I think it has to do with the "balance" thing that Walter and you have discussed. Everything, including salt levels, has to be in balance.

I don't think anything can make up for a lack of salt in the crust because at some point you will take a bite of crust with no sauce or cheese and that bite will be what defines the pizza.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #846 on: September 17, 2014, 10:33:10 AM »
Norma,

I believe that the blandness of Frank's crust was due almost entirely to the lack of sufficient salt. In fact, in my experience, whenever I hear someone say that a pizza crust is "bland", it is almost always due to insufficient salt. Based on the six dough balls that you made from Frank's dough, I estimate that the amount of salt per dough ball (with a weight of a bit over 20 ounces) was about 1/6 teaspoon. It was perhaps a bit lower than that because of the additional water that was added during mixing of the dough.

The lowest amount of salt that I can recall intentionally using was 1%. That was based on a recommendation by Evelyne Slomon and supposedly was typical of the salt levels that the NYC old timers used in the early days of the NY style of pizza. As it turned out, the finished crust was very bland. I found support of that conclusion at the AIB website at https://www.aibonline.org/aibOnline_/GenericForm.aspx?strOpen=\www.aibonline.org\researchandtechnical\faqs\pizza.html, where Tom Lehmann reported the following:

Salt levels below 1% of the flour weight in the dough will produce a crust with a very bland flavor.

About the lowest salt level that my palate can tolerate from a satisfaction standpoint is around 1.50% salt. But I prefer something in the 1.75-2% range. That is a range that most experts recommend, including Tom Lehmann, King Arthur (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html), and Prof. Calvel (he actually goes out to 2.2% for bread dough).

It might be natural to assume that because there is salt in the pizza sauce (either added to the tomatoes during canning or in preparing the pizza sauce) and in the cheese, those salt quantities will make up for a lack of adequate salt in the crust and the crust won't taste bland. However, in my experience, that has not been true. Maybe if there are salty meats on the pizza, like pepperoni or sausage, the crust blandness might not be detected but in my experience that also has not been true. At some point you will usually eat just some of the crust and it will be bland. I think it has to do with the "balance" thing that Walter and you have discussed. Everything, including salt levels, has to be in balance.

The low sugar and oil levels and the use of all-purpose flour also do not help Frank's dough. Sugar and oil are not essential ingredients for the NY style, but to get value out of them for taste purposes, they have to be at detectable levels. As for the amount of oil, Tom Lehmann has this to say at the aforementioned AIB website:

We have found that oil levels as low as 1% of the flour weight in the dough.......will exhibit a flavor enhancing affect, with a maximum benefit obtained at somewhere between 1.5 and 2% levels.

The use of all-purpose flour, even with its long history in pizza dough making, naturally leads to less crust flavor, and also color, because of its lower protein/gluten content compared with the higher protein flours used today and reduced denaturing of the protein and reduce Maillard reactions during baking. At low sugar levels, there will also be reduced caramelization.

I'm sure that in due course you will get the scoop on the salt issue. It is quite possible that what Frank was trying to do was to show was his way of making dough by hand, not an optimum dough from the standpoint of ingredients. I'm sure we will all be interested in seeing the recipe for the dough that you liked so much.

Peter


Peter,

I agree that the blandness in Frank's crust was due entirely to the lack of sufficient salt.  When the other videos are posted of Frank mixing his dough by hand you will be able to see how much more flour Frank added.  Frank used a different balling technique than I never saw.  He oiled the bench and then balled.  Frank's dough balls aren't what I call true balled dough balls.  I had wondered the week before why Frank's 2 dough balls looked different in the plastic wrap.  I think that might be one of his balling techniques. 

Thanks for telling us that the lowest amount of salt you recall intentionally using was 1%, and that was based on a recommendation by Evelyne Slomon.  I can understand how that crust would have been bland.  Thanks also for the link to the AIB website. 

Frank's pizza crust made with AP flour last week was colored enough for me, and the taste was good.  I  don't know if Frank uses the same dough recipe all the time, but I intend to find out.  I froze one of Frank's dough ball last night.  If Frank comes to market on Monday again I am going to get him to try and bake that dough ball, with or without dressings.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #847 on: September 17, 2014, 10:34:57 AM »
I don't think anything can make up for a lack of salt in the crust because at some point you will take a bite of crust with no sauce or cheese and that bite will be what defines the pizza.

Craig,

I agree!  I know your NP pizzas are in perfect balance.  :chef:

Norma
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