Author Topic: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -  (Read 25680 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fornographer

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 240
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2013, 05:28:10 PM »
When they come to the US to build ovens (for Keste or Nella's restaurant), which distributor do they get the materials from?  Is there an importer of Biscoto Sorrento and Vesuvian sand or brick?


Offline kiwipete

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 243
  • Location: New Zealand
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2013, 06:21:35 PM »
When they come to the US to build ovens (for Keste or Nella's restaurant), which distributor do they get the materials from?  Is there an importer of Biscoto Sorrento and Vesuvian sand or brick?

My understanding is that everything is shipped in from Italy..

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 580
  • Location: Belgium
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2013, 07:06:47 PM »
Yes Pete,

All came from Italy from what I've read.

The best manufacturer of Biscotto di Sorrento: www.aversaforni.it/

the products


The cast iron oven door can be bough at Acunto gianni factory in Italy (they don't send it)     dim in 44x22cm ext 77x40cm
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 08:59:22 AM by sub »

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 580
  • Location: Belgium
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2013, 09:59:28 AM »
Aversa

Production is carried out by extracting the raw material directly on site then, following a procedure centuries old, after having carefully sorted and mixed with water, working the clay refining it with your hands on antique rollers; finally pass to fill the forms in wood worked by their ancestors.

Before being cooked in ancient firewood furnace to 800 degrees (1470F)  the bricks are put to dry for a few months in the summer, two in winter.

It 's so that the bricks of Sorrento acquire the porosity that differentiates them from those made with the aid of mechanical presses and other modern machinery.

This peculiarity makes the bricks eternal even when subjected to high temperatures.

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3545
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2013, 02:42:53 PM »
I have seen that exact same process, using the same materials, and, in fact, have a yard full of that material.  Those molds were not "used by their ancestors" by the way, they wear out in a couple of years, even when the top (scraping) surface is covered in metal.

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 580
  • Location: Belgium
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2013, 06:56:22 PM »

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3545
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2013, 02:41:35 PM »
That one has no room for insulation at all.

Offline txtanner

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 26
  • Location: houston
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2013, 09:58:20 PM »
Sorry to disagree Scarborough there's plenty of room for insulation,what you failed to realize is the insulation will be made of material mined and transported on the back of unicorns from the caldera of Monte Vesuvio where the laws of physics cease to apply, by a family(who some say may be fairies) who have passed down this high art form for 13 generations.I have a link to a video where Stephen Hawking explains the whole process,It may clarify a few things for you.I'll search for the link and pm it to you.

Bill

Offline txtanner

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 26
  • Location: houston
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2013, 10:27:49 PM »
Sorry Sub I forgot my manners,that's got to be one of the best collection of build photos featuring the neapolitan masters I've seen in one place.Goggle must work a lot better on your computer than on mine.

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 580
  • Location: Belgium
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2013, 04:42:42 AM »
That one has no room for insulation at all.

If you look closely, there are no more room in a mobile Stefano Ferrara.

Sorry Sub I forgot my manners,that's got to be one of the best collection of build photos featuring the neapolitan masters I've seen in one place.Goggle must work a lot better on your computer than on mine.

Thanks, I've trained Google  :P


Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1162
  • Location: Detroit
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2013, 09:10:35 AM »
I've done the math for the mobile SF ovens before using the dimensions off of his website.  If the dimensions are true, which I am not so sure about considering the way they crudely slap them together, there is no room for insulation around the oven.  Combine this with the hands on experience of feeling one of these ovens exterior so hot you could only touch it for a brief second during operation, AND with the "heat conducting" shelves on the front and the picture is clear.  The oven are very poorly insulated.
-Jeff

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 580
  • Location: Belgium
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2013, 10:27:52 AM »
there is no room for insulation around the oven.  Combine this with the hands on experience of feeling one of these ovens exterior so hot you could only touch it for a brief second during operation

this is not surprising!

insulation thickness of furnace walls (estimated)

Outer Diameter - (2  x brick width + inner diameter) / 2 = thickness of insulation

refractory brick 22x11x6

In the catalog they say:
A double layer of aluminum and high-density ceramic fiber 25 mm (1 inch) thick between the first wall in firebricks and the final plaster guarantees insulation (mobile oven)

It's about right.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 11:11:01 AM by sub »

Offline fornographer

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 240
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2013, 12:59:41 PM »
Is it true that these ovens are meant to be used indoors only?  Will they hold up outdoors in a climate like say, Southeast USA?

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13235
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2013, 01:46:00 PM »
Is it true that these ovens are meant to be used indoors only?  Will they hold up outdoors in a climate like say, Southeast USA?

From what I've seen and heard, Mario Acunto is the only manufacturer that will tell you it's OK to put their oven outdoors. Perhaps it is because of their construction? If you notice from the pictures, I believe they are the only one with a steel shell enclosing the oven. I would also imagine that "outdoors" does not mean uncovered but rather fully protected from rain no matter how hard it rains or how windy it is. I've had no problems in the garage where it is protected from the rain but not the 99% humidity.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline txtanner

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 26
  • Location: houston
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2013, 05:13:56 PM »
I would guess if you told them you were installing the oven outdoors they would accomidate you by using waterproof stucco or pool plaster.Never the less I'd still keep it under a roof.Could you imagine all the work it would take keeping the grout clean on that tile.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13235
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2013, 05:23:26 PM »
I would guess if you told them you were installing the oven outdoors they would accomidate you by using waterproof stucco or pool plaster.

From what I've heard, most Neapolitan builders won't sell you an oven if they know you plan to install it outside. Heck - most Neapolitan builders won't sell you (any individual) an oven period.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3545
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2013, 06:06:49 PM »
Weatherproof stucco will not withstand the heat of a true Neapolitan oven.  You could tile it to put it in the rain, I guess, but they are better used with a roof over their head.  The more pictures you post of the Italian builder's in process pictures, the less respect I have for their skills.  Any of the DIY builders on the Forno Bravo site are building works of art compared to those Italian "masterpieces", and they are doing it with much higher performing ovens, i.e. they insulate.

The best of both worlds is achievable, but so long as they stick to so much tradition it will not happen.  This is not to say that the traditional oven does not perform, it does, but it could perform by a couple of degrees of magnitude better if built with modern conceptions of oven building and insulation.

Offline adm

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 196
  • Location: Surrey, UK
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2013, 06:57:26 PM »
Excellent thread - may thanks, there's some great stuff here.....

One question though. What is the salt for? It looks like they are bedding the hearth on a layer of sea salt in some of the photos - but why?

I am building a Pompeii oven rather than a Neapolitan, and planning on a 100mm thick layer of foamglas, followed by 50mm of CF board, followed by a 75mm thick layer of firebrick for my hearth, but I am interested in the salt nonetheless.....

Offline adm

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 196
  • Location: Surrey, UK
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2013, 07:01:44 PM »
The more pictures you post of the Italian builder's in process pictures, the less respect I have for their skills.  Any of the DIY builders on the Forno Bravo site are building works of art compared to those Italian "masterpieces", and they are doing it with much higher performing ovens, i.e. they insulate.

It does look like they get slapped together pretty quickly. They obviously work really well, but will for sure consume much more fuel and not hold heat very well.

I fully agree with you on the works of art on the FB forum with fully bevelled and tapered high alumina firebricks, minimal amounts of mortar and serious insulation. That's what I am going to aim for as well....

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 580
  • Location: Belgium
Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2013, 04:29:32 AM »
Is it true that these ovens are meant to be used indoors only?  Will they hold up outdoors in a climate like say, Southeast USA?

In winter with high humidity and negative temperature, the masonry/titles may crack, they certainly do not want to guarantee this.

Excellent thread - may thanks, there's some great stuff here.....

One question though. What is the salt for? It looks like they are bedding the hearth on a layer of sea salt in some of the photos - but why?

Thanks adm,

From Vincenzo Pagano

Quote
Salt, salt under the biscotto di Sorrento. Absolutely essential to compensate for the differences in moisture "localized". But then there's the secret of ... oops Ferrara does not say. But at least we can say that those once came from Ogliara?


« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 08:24:35 AM by sub »


 

pizzapan