Author Topic: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -  (Read 41421 times)

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Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2013, 06:56:22 PM »


Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2013, 02:41:35 PM »
That one has no room for insulation at all.

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2013, 09:58:20 PM »
Sorry to disagree Scarborough there's plenty of room for insulation,what you failed to realize is the insulation will be made of material mined and transported on the back of unicorns from the caldera of Monte Vesuvio where the laws of physics cease to apply, by a family(who some say may be fairies) who have passed down this high art form for 13 generations.I have a link to a video where Stephen Hawking explains the whole process,It may clarify a few things for you.I'll search for the link and pm it to you.

Bill

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2013, 10:27:49 PM »
Sorry Sub I forgot my manners,that's got to be one of the best collection of build photos featuring the neapolitan masters I've seen in one place.Goggle must work a lot better on your computer than on mine.

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2013, 04:42:42 AM »
That one has no room for insulation at all.

If you look closely, there are no more room in a mobile Stefano Ferrara.

Sorry Sub I forgot my manners,that's got to be one of the best collection of build photos featuring the neapolitan masters I've seen in one place.Goggle must work a lot better on your computer than on mine.

Thanks, I've trained Google  :P

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2013, 09:10:35 AM »
I've done the math for the mobile SF ovens before using the dimensions off of his website.  If the dimensions are true, which I am not so sure about considering the way they crudely slap them together, there is no room for insulation around the oven.  Combine this with the hands on experience of feeling one of these ovens exterior so hot you could only touch it for a brief second during operation, AND with the "heat conducting" shelves on the front and the picture is clear.  The oven are very poorly insulated.
-Jeff

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2013, 10:27:52 AM »
there is no room for insulation around the oven.  Combine this with the hands on experience of feeling one of these ovens exterior so hot you could only touch it for a brief second during operation

this is not surprising!

insulation thickness of furnace walls (estimated)

Outer Diameter - (2  x brick width + inner diameter) / 2 = thickness of insulation

refractory brick 22x11x6

In the catalog they say:
A double layer of aluminum and high-density ceramic fiber 25 mm (1 inch) thick between the first wall in firebricks and the final plaster guarantees insulation (mobile oven)

It's about right.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 11:11:01 AM by sub »

Offline fornographer

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2013, 12:59:41 PM »
Is it true that these ovens are meant to be used indoors only?  Will they hold up outdoors in a climate like say, Southeast USA?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2013, 01:46:00 PM »
Is it true that these ovens are meant to be used indoors only?  Will they hold up outdoors in a climate like say, Southeast USA?

From what I've seen and heard, Mario Acunto is the only manufacturer that will tell you it's OK to put their oven outdoors. Perhaps it is because of their construction? If you notice from the pictures, I believe they are the only one with a steel shell enclosing the oven. I would also imagine that "outdoors" does not mean uncovered but rather fully protected from rain no matter how hard it rains or how windy it is. I've had no problems in the garage where it is protected from the rain but not the 99% humidity.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2013, 05:13:56 PM »
I would guess if you told them you were installing the oven outdoors they would accomidate you by using waterproof stucco or pool plaster.Never the less I'd still keep it under a roof.Could you imagine all the work it would take keeping the grout clean on that tile.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2013, 05:23:26 PM »
I would guess if you told them you were installing the oven outdoors they would accomidate you by using waterproof stucco or pool plaster.

From what I've heard, most Neapolitan builders won't sell you an oven if they know you plan to install it outside. Heck - most Neapolitan builders won't sell you (any individual) an oven period.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2013, 06:06:49 PM »
Weatherproof stucco will not withstand the heat of a true Neapolitan oven.  You could tile it to put it in the rain, I guess, but they are better used with a roof over their head.  The more pictures you post of the Italian builder's in process pictures, the less respect I have for their skills.  Any of the DIY builders on the Forno Bravo site are building works of art compared to those Italian "masterpieces", and they are doing it with much higher performing ovens, i.e. they insulate.

The best of both worlds is achievable, but so long as they stick to so much tradition it will not happen.  This is not to say that the traditional oven does not perform, it does, but it could perform by a couple of degrees of magnitude better if built with modern conceptions of oven building and insulation.

Offline adm

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2013, 06:57:26 PM »
Excellent thread - may thanks, there's some great stuff here.....

One question though. What is the salt for? It looks like they are bedding the hearth on a layer of sea salt in some of the photos - but why?

I am building a Pompeii oven rather than a Neapolitan, and planning on a 100mm thick layer of foamglas, followed by 50mm of CF board, followed by a 75mm thick layer of firebrick for my hearth, but I am interested in the salt nonetheless.....

Offline adm

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2013, 07:01:44 PM »
The more pictures you post of the Italian builder's in process pictures, the less respect I have for their skills.  Any of the DIY builders on the Forno Bravo site are building works of art compared to those Italian "masterpieces", and they are doing it with much higher performing ovens, i.e. they insulate.

It does look like they get slapped together pretty quickly. They obviously work really well, but will for sure consume much more fuel and not hold heat very well.

I fully agree with you on the works of art on the FB forum with fully bevelled and tapered high alumina firebricks, minimal amounts of mortar and serious insulation. That's what I am going to aim for as well....

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2013, 04:29:32 AM »
Is it true that these ovens are meant to be used indoors only?  Will they hold up outdoors in a climate like say, Southeast USA?

In winter with high humidity and negative temperature, the masonry/titles may crack, they certainly do not want to guarantee this.

Excellent thread - may thanks, there's some great stuff here.....

One question though. What is the salt for? It looks like they are bedding the hearth on a layer of sea salt in some of the photos - but why?

Thanks adm,

From Vincenzo Pagano

Quote
Salt, salt under the biscotto di Sorrento. Absolutely essential to compensate for the differences in moisture "localized". But then there's the secret of ... oops Ferrara does not say. But at least we can say that those once came from Ogliara?


« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 08:24:35 AM by sub »

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2013, 12:10:45 PM »
Construction of a Stefano Ferrara fixed oven.

Did they run out of Tuff stones in Italy ?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 12:17:03 PM by sub »

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2013, 12:13:03 PM »
suite
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 12:16:28 PM by sub »


Offline shuboyje

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2013, 12:21:38 PM »
Did he find two old guys on the street and have them build that oven?  I varies greatly from his others, and has some very odd and questionable features.
-Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2013, 12:32:10 PM »
Flue pipe direct to the vent?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2013, 05:42:18 PM »
Kinda looks like a not so traditional.....traditional neapolitan pizza oven.The generations before them must be turning in their gravesI always assumed we watch them,but they maybe watching us.That block work and flue to vent looks familiar to many that spend anytime at the Forno Bravo sight.  The brick work ....not so much

Next thing ya know they"ll start wrapping the mobile units in 3 inches of fiber blanket.

Bill
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 08:13:35 PM by txtanner »

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2013, 08:28:05 PM »
Earlier I was on my phone so didn't type too much, but I have a few major questions about that oven.  First, either it lacks insulation completely under the floor, OR it lacks a sound structural layer under the floor.  First you seem them set the thin Terra Cotta tiles, then they pour a layer over top of it.  Either that layer is an insulator and adds no structural strength to those flimsy tiles, or it is structural and adds no insulation under the floor.  Second that flue pipe looks to be simple single wall galvanized HVAC fittings.  It will be gone in no time, and would not remotely meat code in the US. 
-Jeff

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2013, 11:22:01 PM »
Those are structural clay tiles and they are a lot stronger than you would think.  As for the rest, I agree completely.

Edit:  It looks like they have a perlcrete layer under the floor.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 11:23:40 PM by Tscarborough »

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2013, 11:45:15 PM »
., but I have a few major questions about that oven.  First, either it lacks insulation completely under the floor, OR it lacks a sound structural layer under the floor.  First you seem them set the thin Terra Cotta tiles, then they pour a layer over top of it.  Either that layer is an insulator and adds no structural strength to those flimsy tiles, or it is structural and adds no insulation under the floor.  .

It's easy to misunderstand what happening in a picture.Those terracotta looking tiles which look a lot like kiln shelves could just be getting marked or cut for some other later function just because that's the same material Stephano uses later in the building of the vent.

That being said I do think they are using these in the construction of the slab, because if you look closely you can see the triangular wire coming up from the tiles as well as horizontal wire passing through those triangles.We don't see it in a picture but they may have added rebar or 4 x 4 wire mesh to that.

This oven definitely has a structural slab.Most blocks here are 8 x 16 so it's clear to see in the picture there's at least 6 or 7  inches of something poured on top of the blocks.Either the tiles were cut to fit inside and flush to the top of the blocks and supported from underneath or hung from the rebar some way and then covered with 6 inch of concrete, Or as it looks in the pictures the tiles are cut to set on the blocks and the slab is poured on top of this.The resulting slab is 6 or 7 inches thick at its outer edge where it sits on the block and 3 or 4 thick on top of the tile.

One picture shows they have poured perlicrete on top of the slab.So the insulation is on top of the slab were it'll do the most good.As far as the tiles under the slab I cant speak to whether or not it insulates or how well.It seems as it would or they think so.Maybe they just didn't have any plywood


So to answer the question,It's gotta slab and insulation.


Sorry I started writing this 1 hour ago and I see that some of this has been coverd by T
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 11:54:33 PM by txtanner »

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2013, 12:15:44 AM »
I got a question....Do the fire laws pertaining to the way they  run the flues change from city to city and state to state change like they do in the states? Some seem to just run straight up through the ceiling and some through walls.  I saw some piped into some sort of machine on the wall that I assumed was some kind of powered vent which could explain a lot.

I just see so much horizontal ducting. Maybe its just what necessary to get out of the building.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2013, 12:20:05 AM »
Codes vary city to city, and then those vary if you are in the county.  IBC is the norm for a minimum starting point, and if there is any code compliance at all the vent will be a minimum of double wall with stainless steel inner pipe construction.