Author Topic: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -  (Read 22914 times)

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Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2013, 09:19:54 PM »
Im sorry my description is unclear. What I'm trying to say is,,,In much the same way you poured a concrete ring around your soldiers on the oven you built for Jet. Why couldn't they do the same thing but place it on top of the soldiers. Like a steel band around the dome instead of the soldiers. Better yet,pour it around both.


Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2013, 09:26:42 PM »
Because they buttress the parging with  lath and stucco and so do not need it (with little to no insulation value).  I did it the way I did so that I could use loose perlite as insulation between the oven and the stucco shell.  Also, Gene's oven had to make a 200 mile trip on a bouncy trailer.

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2013, 11:20:00 PM »
Whether or not you needed it,  I thank you were smart for doing it the way you did it considering the trailer ride.

Oven gets made in Italy,goes6000 miles by boat to Fla. gets loaded on a truck and then goes 3000 miles to California .

I don't care how you make it.It's a miracle it shows up in one piece.
 


Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2013, 05:31:22 AM »
I have got some questions about the measurments of Craigs oven vent that i have been using. I decided to post them here since its a better place for it.
Personally i did not use them exactly but more or less so they fitted to my own oven.

Thanks for the pictures Faglia, and also to Craig for the measurments.



Few pictures of Strazzullo Michele Forni Artigiani

Looks like he also uses expanded clay in his fixed oven.

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2013, 07:23:43 AM »

Offline adm

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2013, 08:04:51 PM »
Wow....that's some pretty ugly brickwork in that second shot! Almost more mortar than brick.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2013, 08:12:59 PM »
And it makes no difference what so ever to the pizzas.

Offline adm

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2013, 10:55:22 PM »
True....but it might make a difference to the longevity of the oven, depending on the composition of the mortar and geological stability of the location.

I have to say though, if I had paid for an Italian artisan oven builder to make an oven for me, I would expect far better brickwork than that. Had I made it myself, I'd probably be pretty happy! (Not really true as I will be doing full trapezoidal cuts for my own build)

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2013, 11:00:46 PM »
There is nothing mystical or magic about Neapolitan oven builders.  They slap them together like their father did and their fathers before them.  They work great, but they are not works of art, they are 1000 year old technology built as quickly as possible and with strict utility in mind.  They get top dollar because...?

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2013, 11:05:29 PM »
People are willing to pay it.  Pay some guy from Italy a premium to come to America and import the material to build a "genuine Neapolitan oven"?!  <shrug>  OK, if that is your business model, go for it, and be sure to get that certification while you are at it.

A better plan is to learn to make pizza.  Good pizza.  Pizza that can be cooked in an oven that is built locally from locally sourced materials for 1/4 of the price.  The design is not a secret, and the features of the build that are "secret" are not really desirable.


Offline adm

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2013, 11:17:42 PM »
I fully agree with you.

I am not trying to diss the Italian builders. Although my (purely personal) experience with many "made in Italy" products has been more a case of function follows form. Many things I have bought from italian craftsmen in the past, from cars through shoes have worked extremely well, or looked very good but have never done both for a particularly long period of time! Having said that, most of the Neo ovens look like the exact opposite - form follows function. I think both can be improved upon though.

Anyway. This is a great and very educational thread, especially for me as I start my own WFO build. Personally, I want a dome with the absolute minimum of mortar, even if it takes ten times as long to build. More of a personal obsessiveness goal rather than just getting the job done.

And in the spirit of not dissing italian oven builders, I have an Efeuno P134H pizza oven being delivered to me on Friday, so we shall see if I am able to turn out pies of the same calibre as those posted by Seb and Co. Fingers crossed...

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2013, 11:22:01 PM »
I am not dissing them either.  They turn out very workable day-to-day commercial ovens that will last for a very long time in service.  They are not works of art unless you consider the fenestration.  Then they are, as is typical of Italian artisans, works of art.

Offline stonecutter

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2013, 10:32:44 AM »

........... More of a personal obsessiveness goal rather than just getting the job done.
It's good to recognize  this because tight fitting brick or not, as long as the oven is built correctly, ie: enough mass and insulation....it will function well.



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When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
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Offline fagilia

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2013, 02:33:19 AM »
One thing i have been thinking about is the oven floor thickness.
Will only the thickness of the biscotti which seems to be quite thin be enough mass, to produce a 1000 pizzas in 1 day which would be the aim for a neapolitan pizzeria  ;D
Or is the tuffa or leca underneath the biscotti also acting as some kind of mass so it can refill the biscotti if it gets to Cold?
This was my thinking until i saw the perlite under the one oven from SF with vent pipe going straight to vent chamber.
I guess the tricky part is to find an equation of the neapolitan oven based on mass/conductivity/insulation and other variables so you can produce large amounts of perfect pizzas like Marc talks about is the difference between a good and a bad oven. (long sentence :) )
If you could have an equation like that you might be able to lower or add some variables and still keep the thermal balance over time.
I would have benefitted from such pretty good equation at least being a beginner.

Most ovens i read about here and in FB forum discusses pizzamaking right when the oven has been saturated and ready too Cook in. I guess for an authentic NP oven its more important how it preforms 4 hours after it has been saturated at lunch.

Just my thinking maby its all the same when using correct management for each oven. I will see soon enough with my own.



Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2013, 04:38:59 AM »
Hi Faglia,

I don't know the exact thickness of the biscotto, around 3cm - 1.2inch I guess

It's more the heat from the low dome who reheat the floor I think.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2013, 11:36:47 AM »
Hi Faglia,

I don't know the exact thickness of the biscotto, around 3cm - 1.2inch I guess

It's more the heat from the low dome who reheat the floor I think.

From the pictures in this thread, I'd guess most of the biscotto tiles to be more like 5cm or 2" thick. Even as such, I donít see how they alone could hold suitable heat. I also doubt that it is the low dome that allows for the reheating of the floor. If that was the case, the form of the heat would be IR. In a busy oven, the floor would be continuously covered with pizza that not only draws heat from the floor, but also blocks IR from reheating large parts of it..

Certainly IR from the dome and fire and convection all serve to replenish some of the heat lost in the floor to the pies, but I think mass under the biscotto must also play a role.

Are we sure that is perlite under the SF oven with vent pipe going straight to vent chamber? Looking at all the pictures, I think maybe itís just concrete.

It would seem that you would want the mass under the biscotto to have a slightly higher thermal conductivity than the biscotto itself.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline fagilia

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2013, 01:42:32 PM »
That would be my thought to Craig. Maby Leca is a pretty good substitute to tuffa stone? Maby they found it was working in almost the same way so they could keep the same equation with it. And offcourse the stuff under the floor tiles sand salt or what it is now.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2013, 08:22:25 PM »
Thanks Pulcinella,

I don't know who's behind Forno Napoletano, maybe another member can answer that.

I'll quote Marco Parente:

If I have to choose,

I realy like the look of the Ferrara mobile, but I'll end up doing it myself with a better insulation.



Dimensions of a Gianni Acunto oven

There is some nice pictures in this post but more pictures with a lot of demonstration of approximation and build design, methodology and materials that have nothing to do with tradition and therefore perfect functioning for a Neapolitan pizzeria.

About my earlier quote above, aside of the Mastro Ernesto info (the grandfather of the current Ernesto), I was wrong as it was based on misguided info nd one of the reason that I went on with my oven research and co-founded Forno Napoletano.

Remember all, the trick is to put together a perfect balance od dome design, dimensions, and materials in the various points. A lot of those pictures show me, over and over again, how  many mistakes some of these guys makes...

Many great Neapolitan pizza makers have recently been visiting Masse and observed the easiness of work, even cooking over time and other attributes of our oven making positive observations to both Ciro and Gennaro (the uncle working the oven).

One of them contacted us in July to do a survey of his oven and asked us to come up with a solution to substitute the oven made by one of the guys featured in this post that was poorly performing and a nightmare to work with, whilst continuing operating the pizzeria. I was shocked at seeing how the dome was built, and when I made this observation to him and his business partner, they confessed that even a third party they were expecting a quote from made the same observation, and the famous pizza maker even added that outside look should only come into play into Neapolitan ovens after function, and in this case the oven was only pretty, not functioning. For absolute clarity, our solution was considerate to costly and they ended up going with the third party.

Another pizza makers, kept looking at Ciro/Gennaro working and looking inside the oven, and after admitting that his oven was very troublesome, commented that "obviously could be seen that Masse's one was a build of a different, top quality".

Aside of the satisfaction that this brings me every time, I shared this to express that even these guys, with access to materials, models to observe and copy, etc, at the end still makes a sub products, and becomes famous nevertheless.

Finally, please note that by direct observation, owner comments, and most importantly suppliers direct info, many of these people above do not use the Biscotto di Sorrento (used at Forno Napoletano) which cost 8 times more of the cheaper alternatives, and does indeed have unique properties, however is produced in such low quantities and with Long ead times that is impossible to produce hundreds of ovens in a year or two.

So, for home use, build the best approximation you can, but do not get hung up on some of the details above, mostly incorrect but the few correct would alo have the diverse effect if employed in the wrong way and any way with small influence on few pizza made.

For a professional pizzeria, research properly for a supplier and get one made, certification should not be a stopper as these can be obtained on site, for a couple of thousand dollars, but getting the best possible oven, as Il Pizzaiolo new location has done.

Regards,

M

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2013, 08:31:47 PM »
One final observation:

The door used at FN and traditionally by one other family, is hand made and has a slightly different design and installation needs that most of the doors featured on this post that are just copies of the cast made Acunto ones (originally Acunto was an officina meccanica, making metal parts).

So branded doors do not mean necessarily that the oven was built by them. We have a couple of those doors collected during demolitions, with one client even asking us to reuse that door as it said Napoli and ours was plain (obviously we refused)....



Offline fornographer

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2013, 05:04:15 AM »
"I was shocked at seeing how the dome was built, and when I made this observation to him and his business partner, they confessed that even a third party they were expecting a quote from made the same observation, and the famous pizza maker even added that outside look should only come into play into Neapolitan ovens after function, and in this case the oven was only pretty, not functioning. "

What *exactly* was wrong?