Author Topic: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -  (Read 43448 times)

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Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2013, 12:26:33 AM »
Damn your blazing fast Tscarborough.  Didn't see no double wall there...I guess that one's going under the radar.


Offline fagilia

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2013, 05:14:24 AM »
I have seen pictures with piles of bags containing leca (expanded clay) in some sf builds. I guess at least in their mobile ovens this is what they use under the floor probably around 10 inches. Since there is so much of it where they build the mobile ovens i guess they are using it a lot. Perlite is not so common product in europe. At least not it sweden. But maby in this case they are using perclete or vermicrete since the layer is so thin compared to their mobile ovens.. just guessing :-\

Funny also that they were in such hurry they forgot to buy corner stones for their leca stand so they have to level them with mortar by hand..

Also i have never seen a picture of any buttress on their mobile ovens. Insulation cant act as it since there are none. Anyone seen or do they not need it?

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2013, 07:23:14 AM »
Nice Catch fagilia !

Leca Expended Clay

I've only seen the bags on the pictures from the factory too.

With quotes provided by Omid I think the thickness is around 8 inches.

Perlite and Vermiculite are common in France and Belgium for lightweight structural concrete, house insulation, fireplace vent insulation, horticulture... (Efiperl, Vermex)

in  the previos page, there was a bag of "grasselo di calce" slaked lime in the shipped materials.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 09:27:36 AM by sub »

Offline Pulcinella

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2013, 03:20:22 PM »
This thread is awesome Sub. Keep on adding more pics & info, thank you. I have some questions for you.

Do you know name of the craftsman who builds "Forno Napoletano" ovens? How about name of the craftsman who built da Michele's oven?

If money was no object, which neapolitan oven would you choose/buy? Why?

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2013, 03:44:49 PM »
Thanks Pulcinella,

I don't know who's behind Forno Napoletano, maybe another member can answer that.

I'll quote Marco Parente:

Aversa produce the best oven floor you can find, but they are not the best oven builder in or around Naples. The Master of them all was somebody called Mastro Ernesto (family name Agliarulo) who died 20 years ago. He builded the best ovens in Naples, among the others Trianon's and Port'Alba. The Trianon one for example was built in 1923 and it is still standing today and working beautifully. His two sons (now over 70's years old) are the best now, but they are really, really expensive.

Other then the Agliarulo brothers, there are two more families that are famous in Naples for their ovens:

Natale/Ferrara (brother in Law) that have made the ovens at Brandi, Di Matteo, Gino Sorbillo, Il Pizzaiolo del Presidente and others. www.sfallestimenti.it

De Turris that have made the ovens of Da Michele, Salvo's and other pizzerias.

If I have to choose,

I realy like the look of the Ferrara mobile, but I'll end up doing it myself with a better insulation.



Dimensions of a Gianni Acunto oven

Offline fagilia

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #55 on: August 06, 2013, 03:45:19 PM »
I have got some questions about the measurments of Craigs oven vent that i have been using. I decided to post them here since its a better place for it.
Personally i did not use them exactly but more or less so they fitted to my own oven.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 02:02:02 AM by fagilia »

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2013, 04:31:02 PM »

Also i have never seen a picture of any buttress on their mobile ovens. Insulation cant act as it since there are none. Anyone seen or do they not need it?

Excellent question fagilla,  and a question I've asked myself many times.As I look over these pictures a light bulb went off in my head.You'll notice it doesn't appear they cut any angle on the top of their solder course but they do mud it all together.Next they pour the sand dome.Next from what it looks like in the pictures the cut angled pieces that set,but do not mortar on top of the soldiers.These pieces seem to support the first few courses as they stack course after course until they reach the center of the dome.At this point I believe there would be enough force on the bricks{the first course isn't resting on top of the soldiers but just below the top pushing out) that they are able to now remove the angled blocks.****I just notice one photo where it looks like the first course was placed without sand form for the dome and whatever he is using it's really wet.look at the runs going down the soldiers.***

Now here's where the MAGIC happens

What's left is a 4 inch wide 4 inch deep area on top of the soldier course.They fill this area with some kind of reinforced (stainless needles) mortar or insulating concrete.This drys and become a big band that controls outward motion of the dome and converts it into downward or compressive motion on the soldiers.This in turn makes soldier buttressing unneeded or at least to a lesser degree.They buttress the source of outward force directly instead of the soldiers

Ever notice all the messy mud on top of the soldiers in his pictures. As we say in the south He's crazy allright.........crazy like a fox.

Food for thought.Does anyone think this could be the case?If not what do you think?

Bill


« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 04:47:44 PM by txtanner »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2013, 05:44:26 PM »
That is called, "parging" and it alone combined with the way he fills the back of the ceiling with flowable mortar is what holds it together.  Other ones are buttressed against the stucco shell.

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #58 on: August 06, 2013, 08:40:22 PM »
Not to be overly technical but I would never refer to what they're doing as "parging"at least not to an old mason... That would involve working the mud in with a trial or float much like the way you parge a wall with crumbing mortar.  They just mix a wet slurry up and dump it on and wipe it by hand.But I guess it works to accomplish the same thing.

I was looking to stir the discussion on alternative ways to buttress or improvement to what they currently do.I think reinforced insulating refractory placed on the soldiers instead of free form mortar.

Bill

« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 09:04:12 PM by txtanner »


Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #59 on: August 06, 2013, 09:01:11 PM »
For the ceiling, that is why I made the distinction.  The soldier course is parged.

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2013, 09:19:54 PM »
Im sorry my description is unclear. What I'm trying to say is,,,In much the same way you poured a concrete ring around your soldiers on the oven you built for Jet. Why couldn't they do the same thing but place it on top of the soldiers. Like a steel band around the dome instead of the soldiers. Better yet,pour it around both.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2013, 09:26:42 PM »
Because they buttress the parging with  lath and stucco and so do not need it (with little to no insulation value).  I did it the way I did so that I could use loose perlite as insulation between the oven and the stucco shell.  Also, Gene's oven had to make a 200 mile trip on a bouncy trailer.

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2013, 11:20:00 PM »
Whether or not you needed it,  I thank you were smart for doing it the way you did it considering the trailer ride.

Oven gets made in Italy,goes6000 miles by boat to Fla. gets loaded on a truck and then goes 3000 miles to California .

I don't care how you make it.It's a miracle it shows up in one piece.
 


Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2013, 05:31:22 AM »
I have got some questions about the measurments of Craigs oven vent that i have been using. I decided to post them here since its a better place for it.
Personally i did not use them exactly but more or less so they fitted to my own oven.

Thanks for the pictures Faglia, and also to Craig for the measurments.



Few pictures of Strazzullo Michele Forni Artigiani

Looks like he also uses expanded clay in his fixed oven.

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2013, 07:23:43 AM »

Offline adm

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2013, 08:04:51 PM »
Wow....that's some pretty ugly brickwork in that second shot! Almost more mortar than brick.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2013, 08:12:59 PM »
And it makes no difference what so ever to the pizzas.


Offline adm

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2013, 10:55:22 PM »
True....but it might make a difference to the longevity of the oven, depending on the composition of the mortar and geological stability of the location.

I have to say though, if I had paid for an Italian artisan oven builder to make an oven for me, I would expect far better brickwork than that. Had I made it myself, I'd probably be pretty happy! (Not really true as I will be doing full trapezoidal cuts for my own build)

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2013, 11:00:46 PM »
There is nothing mystical or magic about Neapolitan oven builders.  They slap them together like their father did and their fathers before them.  They work great, but they are not works of art, they are 1000 year old technology built as quickly as possible and with strict utility in mind.  They get top dollar because...?

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2013, 11:05:29 PM »
People are willing to pay it.  Pay some guy from Italy a premium to come to America and import the material to build a "genuine Neapolitan oven"?!  <shrug>  OK, if that is your business model, go for it, and be sure to get that certification while you are at it.

A better plan is to learn to make pizza.  Good pizza.  Pizza that can be cooked in an oven that is built locally from locally sourced materials for 1/4 of the price.  The design is not a secret, and the features of the build that are "secret" are not really desirable.

Offline adm

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2013, 11:17:42 PM »
I fully agree with you.

I am not trying to diss the Italian builders. Although my (purely personal) experience with many "made in Italy" products has been more a case of function follows form. Many things I have bought from italian craftsmen in the past, from cars through shoes have worked extremely well, or looked very good but have never done both for a particularly long period of time! Having said that, most of the Neo ovens look like the exact opposite - form follows function. I think both can be improved upon though.

Anyway. This is a great and very educational thread, especially for me as I start my own WFO build. Personally, I want a dome with the absolute minimum of mortar, even if it takes ten times as long to build. More of a personal obsessiveness goal rather than just getting the job done.

And in the spirit of not dissing italian oven builders, I have an Efeuno P134H pizza oven being delivered to me on Friday, so we shall see if I am able to turn out pies of the same calibre as those posted by Seb and Co. Fingers crossed...

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2013, 11:22:01 PM »
I am not dissing them either.  They turn out very workable day-to-day commercial ovens that will last for a very long time in service.  They are not works of art unless you consider the fenestration.  Then they are, as is typical of Italian artisans, works of art.

Offline stonecutter

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2013, 10:32:44 AM »

........... More of a personal obsessiveness goal rather than just getting the job done.
It's good to recognize  this because tight fitting brick or not, as long as the oven is built correctly, ie: enough mass and insulation....it will function well.



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When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
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Offline fagilia

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2013, 02:33:19 AM »
One thing i have been thinking about is the oven floor thickness.
Will only the thickness of the biscotti which seems to be quite thin be enough mass, to produce a 1000 pizzas in 1 day which would be the aim for a neapolitan pizzeria  ;D
Or is the tuffa or leca underneath the biscotti also acting as some kind of mass so it can refill the biscotti if it gets to Cold?
This was my thinking until i saw the perlite under the one oven from SF with vent pipe going straight to vent chamber.
I guess the tricky part is to find an equation of the neapolitan oven based on mass/conductivity/insulation and other variables so you can produce large amounts of perfect pizzas like Marc talks about is the difference between a good and a bad oven. (long sentence :) )
If you could have an equation like that you might be able to lower or add some variables and still keep the thermal balance over time.
I would have benefitted from such pretty good equation at least being a beginner.

Most ovens i read about here and in FB forum discusses pizzamaking right when the oven has been saturated and ready too Cook in. I guess for an authentic NP oven its more important how it preforms 4 hours after it has been saturated at lunch.

Just my thinking maby its all the same when using correct management for each oven. I will see soon enough with my own.



Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2013, 04:38:59 AM »
Hi Faglia,

I don't know the exact thickness of the biscotto, around 3cm - 1.2inch I guess

It's more the heat from the low dome who reheat the floor I think.


 

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