Author Topic: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -  (Read 38670 times)

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Online TXCraig1

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2013, 11:36:47 AM »
Hi Faglia,

I don't know the exact thickness of the biscotto, around 3cm - 1.2inch I guess

It's more the heat from the low dome who reheat the floor I think.

From the pictures in this thread, I'd guess most of the biscotto tiles to be more like 5cm or 2" thick. Even as such, I donít see how they alone could hold suitable heat. I also doubt that it is the low dome that allows for the reheating of the floor. If that was the case, the form of the heat would be IR. In a busy oven, the floor would be continuously covered with pizza that not only draws heat from the floor, but also blocks IR from reheating large parts of it..

Certainly IR from the dome and fire and convection all serve to replenish some of the heat lost in the floor to the pies, but I think mass under the biscotto must also play a role.

Are we sure that is perlite under the SF oven with vent pipe going straight to vent chamber? Looking at all the pictures, I think maybe itís just concrete.

It would seem that you would want the mass under the biscotto to have a slightly higher thermal conductivity than the biscotto itself.
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Offline fagilia

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2013, 01:42:32 PM »
That would be my thought to Craig. Maby Leca is a pretty good substitute to tuffa stone? Maby they found it was working in almost the same way so they could keep the same equation with it. And offcourse the stuff under the floor tiles sand salt or what it is now.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2013, 08:22:25 PM »
Thanks Pulcinella,

I don't know who's behind Forno Napoletano, maybe another member can answer that.

I'll quote Marco Parente:

If I have to choose,

I realy like the look of the Ferrara mobile, but I'll end up doing it myself with a better insulation.



Dimensions of a Gianni Acunto oven

There is some nice pictures in this post but more pictures with a lot of demonstration of approximation and build design, methodology and materials that have nothing to do with tradition and therefore perfect functioning for a Neapolitan pizzeria.

About my earlier quote above, aside of the Mastro Ernesto info (the grandfather of the current Ernesto), I was wrong as it was based on misguided info nd one of the reason that I went on with my oven research and co-founded Forno Napoletano.

Remember all, the trick is to put together a perfect balance od dome design, dimensions, and materials in the various points. A lot of those pictures show me, over and over again, how  many mistakes some of these guys makes...

Many great Neapolitan pizza makers have recently been visiting Masse and observed the easiness of work, even cooking over time and other attributes of our oven making positive observations to both Ciro and Gennaro (the uncle working the oven).

One of them contacted us in July to do a survey of his oven and asked us to come up with a solution to substitute the oven made by one of the guys featured in this post that was poorly performing and a nightmare to work with, whilst continuing operating the pizzeria. I was shocked at seeing how the dome was built, and when I made this observation to him and his business partner, they confessed that even a third party they were expecting a quote from made the same observation, and the famous pizza maker even added that outside look should only come into play into Neapolitan ovens after function, and in this case the oven was only pretty, not functioning. For absolute clarity, our solution was considerate to costly and they ended up going with the third party.

Another pizza makers, kept looking at Ciro/Gennaro working and looking inside the oven, and after admitting that his oven was very troublesome, commented that "obviously could be seen that Masse's one was a build of a different, top quality".

Aside of the satisfaction that this brings me every time, I shared this to express that even these guys, with access to materials, models to observe and copy, etc, at the end still makes a sub products, and becomes famous nevertheless.

Finally, please note that by direct observation, owner comments, and most importantly suppliers direct info, many of these people above do not use the Biscotto di Sorrento (used at Forno Napoletano) which cost 8 times more of the cheaper alternatives, and does indeed have unique properties, however is produced in such low quantities and with Long ead times that is impossible to produce hundreds of ovens in a year or two.

So, for home use, build the best approximation you can, but do not get hung up on some of the details above, mostly incorrect but the few correct would alo have the diverse effect if employed in the wrong way and any way with small influence on few pizza made.

For a professional pizzeria, research properly for a supplier and get one made, certification should not be a stopper as these can be obtained on site, for a couple of thousand dollars, but getting the best possible oven, as Il Pizzaiolo new location has done.

Regards,

M

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2013, 08:31:47 PM »
One final observation:

The door used at FN and traditionally by one other family, is hand made and has a slightly different design and installation needs that most of the doors featured on this post that are just copies of the cast made Acunto ones (originally Acunto was an officina meccanica, making metal parts).

So branded doors do not mean necessarily that the oven was built by them. We have a couple of those doors collected during demolitions, with one client even asking us to reuse that door as it said Napoli and ours was plain (obviously we refused)....



Offline fornographer

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2013, 05:04:15 AM »
"I was shocked at seeing how the dome was built, and when I made this observation to him and his business partner, they confessed that even a third party they were expecting a quote from made the same observation, and the famous pizza maker even added that outside look should only come into play into Neapolitan ovens after function, and in this case the oven was only pretty, not functioning. "

What *exactly* was wrong?

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #80 on: September 02, 2013, 09:52:20 AM »
Hi Marco,

Thank you for  your contribution,

Finally, please note that by direct observation, owner comments, and most importantly suppliers direct info, many of these people above do not use the Biscotto di Sorrento (used at Forno Napoletano) which cost 8 times more of the cheaper alternatives, and does indeed have unique properties, however is produced in such low quantities and with Long ead times that is impossible to produce hundreds of ovens in a year or two.

Do you know witch brands sells cheaper ones ?
Maybe it's a good alternative for us,  the poor fagilia show us that refractory bricks is not a good floor material for a low dome oven.


I've found new pictures, but a lot in miniature size  :-\
 
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 10:16:01 AM by sub »

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #81 on: September 02, 2013, 11:02:40 AM »
Mapa gloves man


Offline meatboy

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #82 on: September 03, 2013, 09:08:12 AM »
thank you so much sub - this thread is absolutely awesome!

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #83 on: September 05, 2013, 05:15:03 PM »
Thanks meatboy,

Few more from Strazzullo Michele


The original oven at Pizzeria Lievito Madre a Mare was a Stefano Ferrara mobile, but It was not able to withstand the quantities required so Gino Sorbillo remplace it with a fixed Strazzullo Michele.

source:
Solo Gino puÚ battere Sorbillo. Pizzeria Lievito Madre a Mare, per esempio
Cosa imparo dal ministro Nunzia De Girolamo, esclusa la Septemberfest

So pizzanapoletana was right...
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 02:37:50 PM by sub »


Offline stonecutter

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2013, 11:49:51 AM »
Enjoying these build pictures, thanks for posting them.  You don't usually see the construction process of these ovens documented with pictures much...at least, I haven't seen many of them.    I'm not a fan of the final finish though, because to me, they look like upside down toilets.   
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 11:52:23 AM by stonecutter »
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Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2013, 02:47:11 PM »
Thanks stonecutter,


Few pictures from Artistica Salernitana

I think it's the cheapest brand but not the most traditional.


Offline stonecutter

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2013, 05:04:43 PM »
That is some rough looking brick work.
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2013, 12:14:29 AM »
What is the dome looking thing in the third picture? Never mind, I see it is the form. Is it in pieces? How do they get it out?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline stonecutter

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2013, 05:55:03 AM »
The form appears to be segmented, there are lines running across the top and down the sides.   That or maybe they just break it out....if it is thin terracotta then it would come apart easily.
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2013, 10:14:55 AM »
Witht the scuffs, scratches and different colored marks, It has the appearance of something that has been used many times.
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #90 on: September 13, 2013, 10:31:20 AM »
That is what I was going to say.  It looks well used.  All these guys do rough brickwork, because that is all that is required.  They are oven-builders, not masons.

Offline stonecutter

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2013, 10:40:36 AM »
You're right, I was focused on the lines and didn't pay attention to the old mortar on the form...it has clear evidence of an earlier build.  My guess would be that there is a small middle section that gets removed first, then the two remaining pieces can be slid towards each other and down for removal.
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Offline stonecutter

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #92 on: September 15, 2013, 09:15:45 PM »
.....  All these guys do rough brickwork, because that is all that is required.  They are oven-builders, not masons.

That is understood.

 But for me,  the beauty and craftsmanship of an oven is just as important as to how it functions.   And, being a mason  (as you probably know) doesn't necessarily mean you are able to build a well crafted oven.
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Offline shuboyje

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #93 on: September 15, 2013, 10:01:20 PM »
I think everyone would agree that it would be great to have both quality workmanship and a well functioning oven, but when it comes down to it for commercial purposes a properly functioning oven will always win.

Problem is there aren't any ovens on the market that have both.  There isn't an oven on the market that has a proper dome shape and size, proper door shape and size, and proper floor material that isn't built in Naples.  And we've all seen the way they build them in Naples.  They will tell you that they build them this way so the entire oven drys at the same time, and that may be the historical reason.  Now days nobody else builds ovens like this, and nobody worries about the oven drying together, and there are no issues with it.
-Jeff

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #94 on: September 15, 2013, 10:05:35 PM »
That is exactly true.  Obviously, I am able to tell from an order what is being planned, and that is often how I am able to prevent a Horno from being built instead of what the customer actually wants, which is a pizza/baking oven.

Masons can not, by dint of their trade, build an oven, it takes a specialized knowledge.  Even masons versed in fireplaces do not have an inherent ability to build an oven without specific direction and plans.

Offline stonecutter

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #95 on: September 15, 2013, 11:51:59 PM »
I think everyone would agree that it would be great to have both quality workmanship and a well functioning oven, but when it comes down to it for commercial purposes a properly functioning oven will always win.
  The later part is obvious,  because  a good looking oven that doesn't function correctly is useless.  But achieving both is my ideology as it relates to masonry construction, including oven building.  Unrealistic to have both for a commercial oven, maybe.   

Again, only my opinion. 

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Offline stonecutter

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #96 on: September 15, 2013, 11:57:44 PM »


Masons can not, by dint of their trade, build an oven, it takes a specialized knowledge.  Even masons versed in fireplaces do not have an inherent ability to build an oven without specific direction and plans.

Which is proved over and over by many capable folks that are building ovens, who have never laid a brick in their life.  From researching, to planning, building and finishing.
http://oldworldstoneandgarden.com/


When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #97 on: September 16, 2013, 01:28:32 AM »
Considering the reputation that Italians have built for themselves, over centuries, as being some of the world's best masons, I find it especially painful to see Italian oven builders slapping these ovens together.

Could part of this carelessness be job security?  If you make an oven that lasts centuries, you won't be making the next one, whereas if it lasts 5-10 years, perhaps you'll be the guy they hire to fix and/or replace it.

Btw, while I think, right now, finding great craftsmanship with proper function is a bit of a pipe dream, I continue to believe that this guy shows some promise:

http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/pizza_bread_ovens.html
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 01:31:21 AM by scott123 »

Offline stonecutter

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2013, 07:57:49 AM »


Could part of this carelessness be job security?  If you make an oven that lasts centuries, you won't be making the next one, whereas if it lasts 5-10 years, perhaps you'll be the guy they hire to fix and/or replace it.

I'm not so sure about this, as a reputation for faulty work will eventually catch up to you...I have knew a few masons that thought like that, and once they were known for shoddy work,  projects dried up for them.   But the way a lot of guys slap things together sometimes, you have to wonder if that is their business plan.

Given the reputation of these oven builders, it is apparent that the quality and function are not an issue at all.
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Offline fagilia

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2013, 03:15:56 AM »
Me i had some problems finding the screen tile or what you call it in English that seem to be used of all over the vent area and sometimes around the dome.
I solved it with thin leca blocks but here is a link to the real stuff. Actually this gave me more problems than one can Think.
One small piece of the build of neapolitan oven at least :)
http://www.wienerberger.de/fassadenloesungen/argeton/produktkatalog/danza