Author Topic: Help with Oven Spring  (Read 2801 times)

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Offline caltheide

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Help with Oven Spring
« on: July 21, 2013, 07:36:06 PM »
I am just NOT getting the oven spring I would like.  What is/are the main factor(s) in good oven spring?  Is it a hotter oven?  More hydration or a drier dough?  Too much (or too little) salt or sugar or not enough yeast?  I am using a regular home oven set to 500/broil for an hour and cooking on a stone set on the top rack.  I love that puffy airy crispy rim.  I'm getting the crispy just not the puffy and airy.  Cindy


Offline dhorst

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2013, 07:52:30 PM »
I think we probably need more info on your dough formula in order to trouble shoot your oven spring concerns.

Offline norma427

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2013, 09:38:59 PM »
I am just NOT getting the oven spring I would like.  What is/are the main factor(s) in good oven spring?  Is it a hotter oven?  More hydration or a drier dough?  Too much (or too little) salt or sugar or not enough yeast?  I am using a regular home oven set to 500/broil for an hour and cooking on a stone set on the top rack.  I love that puffy airy crispy rim.  I'm getting the crispy just not the puffy and airy.  Cindy


Cindy,

I agree with what Diana said. 

If you want to see what Peter posted about the types of factors that appear to govern or to be implicate oven spring his post on that is at Reply 515 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg104559.html#msg104559

Norma
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Offline caltheide

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2013, 10:42:57 PM »
Norma, actually I have been playing with your recipe  - 100%, water 59%, IDY .55%, Morton salt 2%, oil 3% and sugar 1% and a one to two day cold ferment.  I love the way your pizza's look and that is what I am trying to recreate.  Your crusts always looks so puffy and airy and moist.  I think your pizzas are the best looking I've seen, I just can't seem to get mine to look like yours.  I don't know if it's the heat or the kneading times or methods or just practice.  I'm also wondering if a thiner lighter crust will puff up more than a thicker crust.  I think you said your crust has a thickness factor of .85 and I've been making mine .12.  I did look at the link you sent and it does cover quite a few factors which could be involved but it didn't answer how those factors would be involved, ie: type of flour used could be involved, but how?  Hi gluten, low protein, etc.  Heat could be involved but again how?  High or low heat?  I will read the post further, maybe I went over it too fast and missed what I am looking for.  Thank you both for your quick response.

Offline norma427

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2013, 11:20:45 PM »
Norma, actually I have been playing with your recipe  - 100%, water 59%, IDY .55%, Morton salt 2%, oil 3% and sugar 1% and a one to two day cold ferment.  I love the way your pizza's look and that is what I am trying to recreate.  Your crusts always looks so puffy and airy and moist.  I think your pizzas are the best looking I've seen, I just can't seem to get mine to look like yours.  I don't know if it's the heat or the kneading times or methods or just practice.  I'm also wondering if a thiner lighter crust will puff up more than a thicker crust.  I think you said your crust has a thickness factor of .85 and I've been making mine .12.  I did look at the link you sent and it does cover quite a few factors which could be involved but it didn't answer how those factors would be involved, ie: type of flour used could be involved, but how?  Hi gluten, low protein, etc.  Heat could be involved but again how?  High or low heat?  I will read the post further, maybe I went over it too fast and missed what I am looking for.  Thank you both for your quick response.

Cindy,

I think Tom Lehmann will have more to say about oven spring and how it is achieved and maybe more about the formulation you are using too. 

Thanks for your nice comments.  I think right now I am using a TF of 0.80 percent and 1.75% Morton's Kosher salt, a little less percentage of sugar, a little higher hydration and less olive oil.  Do you recall what thread I was using that formulation on.  I really don't think a really thin crust always gives better oven spring, but sometimes it might.  Your TF for a NY style pizza is a little high.  I bake most of my pizzas in a deck oven and my temperatures aren't really high, but a deck oven does bake differently than home oven.  What size pizza are you making?   You can get good oven spring with almost any kind of flour, but you might need the right formulation, right amount of fermentation and good top and bottom heat.  I think in a home oven probably a higher heat will work better.  What temperature are you baking at and if you use a pizza stone what kind are you using?  Also most of my doughs for market are mixed in a Hobart mixer.  My home Kitchen Aid mixer can mix dough well, but not as good as the Hobart.  How do you mix you dough?  Right now I am using the delayed method of adding the oil.  How are you incorporating the oil?  Right now I am using the All Trumps flour.  It is a high gluten flour that is bromated. 

Norma
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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2013, 06:51:46 AM »
It's hard to not consider the entire make up of your dough, including hydration, fermentation and and the like, but heat is the ultimate answer to oven spring. Oven spring only happens until the dough reaches a temperature of about 140 degrees, and the faster that happens the better as far as getting the most oven spring your dough will allow. You can witness this first hand if you ever have the chance to cook in a roaring hot wood fire oven, as soon as the dough is set on the floor you can see the crust expand, thanks to the high heat.

Offline henkverhaar

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2013, 07:05:19 AM »
I am just NOT getting the oven spring I would like.  What is/are the main factor(s) in good oven spring?  Is it a hotter oven?  More hydration or a drier dough?  Too much (or too little) salt or sugar or not enough yeast?  I am using a regular home oven set to 500/broil for an hour and cooking on a stone set on the top rack.  I love that puffy airy crispy rim.  I'm getting the crispy just not the puffy and airy.  Cindy

Using well-proofed dough? NOT using a rolling pin? Baking environment too dry (not sure about pizza, but in bread baking, you get better oven spring when steaming your oven at the beginning of the baking process)?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 07:10:39 AM by henkverhaar »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2013, 09:55:04 AM »
When I composed the list that Norma cited, I was only trying to list all of the factors that related to oven spring. How those factors will apply in any case will depend on the details of that case. However, as a subset of that list I would say that the predominant factors that are more likely to apply to a somewhat generic case will include hydration, the degree of fermentation, and oven setup/protocol and temperature. The amount of yeast is a factor but more important is the capacity of the dough to retain water that is turned to steam under the effects of oven temperature. However, if the dough has overfermented to the point where the gluten structure had been impaired and can no longer effectively retain the gases of fermentation, a high oven temperature may not save you, at least not in a typical home oven operated at normal oven temperatures.

Looking at Cindy's post on her dough formulation and fermentation protocol, I would say that it generally looks to be in order but I would suggest increasing the hydration by a few percent (the actual increase will depend on the type and brand of flour used) and using a considerably lower thickness factor. If those changes don't improve matters, then perhaps the bake protocol needs to be examined more closely.

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2013, 09:46:05 AM »
Cindy;
I agree totally with Peter. Additionally, I just wanted to confirm that you are opening the dough into pizza skins by hand and not using a rolling pin. The use of a rolling pin can significantly degas the dough and restrict oven spring. When opening the dough I like to pretty well keep my fingers away from the edge/rim portion.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline caltheide

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2013, 05:39:20 PM »
I've read how a rolling pin will push out the bubbles so I stay away from rolling.  I gently hand push the dough out and try to leave the rim alone.  I have been experimenting with different flours.  I've tried using all Caputo 00 but it didn't brown.  I tried mixing the Caputo with bread flour 50/50 and that worked better.  I just received my order of KASL so I will try my next batch using that and the Caputo.  I've read some posts on using bromated flour for a better rise but so far I haven't been able to locate any in California.  When mixing the dough I use a kitchen Aid with the paddle to just bring the dough together then I hand knead till it forms a smooth ball, probably about 3 -4 minutes.  I then do 4 - 5 stretch and folds at 5 minute intervals.  Then divide, ball and refrigerate for 1 to 2 days.  I reball the morning of, back in the refrigerator and out at room temp for about an hour and a half before cooking. Thank you everyone for your help.

Norma, I think the post was:

 Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Reply #1680 on: April 11, 2013, 03:39:50 PM


Offline norma427

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2013, 06:02:39 PM »
Cindy,

I don't mix doughs anymore like at post 1680 on the NJ Boardwalk thread.  If you want me to link a post of how I make my mix my doughs now, I can link that.  I now use the delayed addition of the oil.  I don't use the formulation anymore that you are trying either. 

Caputo won't brown unless there is enough high temperature heat and even Caputo with another flour blended is hard to brown.  I think you will find you will like KASL.  I used KASL for a long while on the preferment Lehmann dough thread. 

I think one thing you might be doing wrong is doing the reball in the morning.  Some members do have good results with reballs, but I don't think most members do reballs.  It is just easier to start out to learn more what your dough can do without a reball in my opinion.

Norma 
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Offline caltheide

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2013, 04:14:51 PM »
Norma, I would very much appreciate the link plus your new formulation, thank you so much.  Next time I think I will try one dough with reballing and another without to see if this helps.  Again thank you for any info on your pizzas, they always look so amazing.

Offline norma427

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2013, 05:03:10 PM »
Norma, I would very much appreciate the link plus your new formulation, thank you so much.  Next time I think I will try one dough with reballing and another without to see if this helps. 


Cindy,

Paul (parallei) figured out my formulation for me at Reply 133 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg266219.html#msg266219  and I am now using the first formulation Paul posted at 60.1% hydration.  I used the delayed addition of the oil as I briefly explained at Reply 43 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg259370.html#msg259370  I tried the delayed addition of oil from other posts here and the forum and what Joe Kelley at General Mills told me to try. 

I also explained the delayed addition of oil at Reply 30 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg257910.html#msg257910

That is the way you will learn what you like by trying things like reballing and not reballing. 

I am sure not saying my pizza dough I am now making will give the best oven spring, but if you look at the pizza that I made at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26385.0.html  that was from the same dough as I use for the tomato pies.  The dough ball was just opened differently.

There are many formulations here on the forum that will give you good oven spring. 

Norma
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 12:06:27 PM »
Cindy;
I don't think you will have much luck finding a bromated flour in California as one of the many propositions all but bans its use in any food item. If you know someone outside of CA you might be able to get them to pick some up for you and UPS it to you. In CA when a food item contains bromate it must be labeled in a similar way to that which is seen on a pack of cigarettes or a bottle of wine. In short, it says that this stuff might give you cancer....With that thought, give me two more bags of that bromated flour. LOL

Offline caltheide

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2013, 05:28:06 PM »
Just a note as to my experiment with the two dough balls, one I re-balled 24 hours before and the other I didn't re-ball at all.  The dough I re-balled was WAY better.  It had more oven spring, was more airy and had that softer, moister inside.  Gettin there, now if the bottom would only cook a little more...thanks for the help.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2013, 06:06:51 PM »
I've read how a rolling pin will push out the bubbles so I stay away from rolling.  I gently hand push the dough out and try to leave the rim alone.  I have been experimenting with different flours.  I've tried using all Caputo 00 but it didn't brown.  I tried mixing the Caputo with bread flour 50/50 and that worked better.  I just received my order of KASL so I will try my next batch using that and the Caputo.  I've read some posts on using bromated flour for a better rise but so far I haven't been able to locate any in California.  When mixing the dough I use a kitchen Aid with the paddle to just bring the dough together then I hand knead till it forms a smooth ball, probably about 3 -4 minutes.  I then do 4 - 5 stretch and folds at 5 minute intervals.  Then divide, ball and refrigerate for 1 to 2 days.  I reball the morning of, back in the refrigerator and out at room temp for about an hour and a half before cooking. Thank you everyone for your help.

Cindy
I've been experimenting a bunch the past couple months on the mixing aspect of my dough.  I too use my Kitchen Aid with the paddle for one minute to bring the dough together.  Then I let it set for a 5 minute rest.  I then resume with the paddle for 1 more minute at a slightly higher speed...  then I put the severely undermixed dough on an oiled cookie sheet and do 3 stretch and folds in 15 minute invervals.  At the end of an hour, the dough looks amazing.  this is when I scale and ball and refrigerate.  I am a true believer when it comes to reballs.......but what I have found, is that by using the above method, I don't have to reball anymore as long as I use the dough within 5 or 6 days.

John

Offline caltheide

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2013, 11:47:23 AM »
What I can't figure out is how pizzeria's just mix, knead, ball and cold ferment then pull it our an hour before cooking and  the crusts come out great.  Great oven spring, puffy, airy crusts, without doing all the resting, stretch and pulls for an hour, reballing, etc.  How is that?   I'm doing the stretches and pulls also and the reballing 24 hours before made a definite difference but I know pizza shops don't have time for all that, so I don't get it.  I am going to try your method next time, thank you for the info fazzari.

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2013, 10:12:02 PM »
What is frustrating about this site is how many knowable people there are reading and belonging to this forum and yet no one has given you a cause and effect of oven spring.

First there are 2 kinds of oven spring:

One is the continue fermentation until the death of the yeast. this type of spring turns your thin crust expectations into a thick crust. If you do any of the things below it simply take longer for the yeast to die but they get very active as your crust goes from room temperature to about 180 after this temperature they are dead. This type of oven spring is not necessarily desirable.

     You will have more continued fermentation if you cook at low temperatures under
     500.
     You will have more continued fermentation if you are cooking in a oven that has not
      been well preheated.
     You will have more continued fermentation if you if you cook in a pan.
     but will happen more if you cook in a steel pan.
     You will have more continued fermentation  with wet doughs.
     This is not oven spring but if your desire is thin crust pizza. Make sure you form the
     skin,  sauce,  get the topping on and into the oven asap. If this process takes a half
     hour your thin crust expectations are gone and you will have a thicker but lighter
     crust.

The other type of spring is caused by steam blowing air pocket in the dough before the the crust is set. This is the type oven spring, I think, is what you are
    looking for?
    It happens more at high temperatures. It is possible to take poor quality dough and
    cook at very high temperatures and still get ok pizza. ( some commercial Pizzerias)
    But it is also possible to take good quality dough and cook at temperatures of 500 to   
    550 and get great pizza.
    If your desire is world class pizza then take great dough and cook in ovens that are
    very hot. 600 and above

    This is what effects this type of oven spring. Again good oven spring can happen at
     500.
    hydration should be above 60%. If your hydration is 55% good spring takes more 
    heat than 500
    Do not over work the dough. the best way to mix is by hand with a spoon and stir for 
    a minute.  then let it set 10 to 15 minutes to hydrate . If you are using a kitchen Aid?
    mix for only a few minutes bag it and put in the cooler for one to three days. let
    mother nature help you. then form a ball and let it come to room temperature.
    Do not over prove the dough but over proofing has a small effect.
    The last factor is very important. It is how the skin was formed. If formed in a dough
    press and than just enough flour to deliver from the peel than you will reduce oven
    spring but not kill it.
    If you form your skin in a lot of flour both sides you will greatly reduce oven spring at
    500 but may be ok at 600. you are drying out the surface.
   
    The best way to form a skin for me is on a oiled parchment paper load it and cook it on the paper at 500 to 550 I get great oven spring but the temperature
    was high enough to still get a thin crust Pizza but with a lot of steam holes formed and browning of those pockets on the surface that is the start of great
    tasting pizza.

   I have used 6 kind of flour all have great spring if I follow my own advice. I hope this help you understand and adjust what you are doing.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 10:27:24 PM by sonny.eymann »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2013, 11:23:38 AM »
What is frustrating about this site is how many knowable people there are reading and belonging to this forum and yet no one has given you a cause and effect of oven spring.
Sonny,

There is an element of truth in what you say. However, at any given time, there are only a small number of members who actively assist other members. Most members who join this forum do so out of self interest and come here looking for something. And they wish to get what they are looking for for nothing. In the vast majority of cases, they leave once they have gotten (or not gotten) what they were looking or hoping to get. I personally have over 19,000 posts, and closing in on 20,000 posts. Yet, I would estmate that well over ninety percent of my posts were addressed to members who are no longer here. Since I am also a Moderator who has to look at over 6000 new posts a month and over 70,000 new posts a year, that leave me with little time to devote to individual member issues or concerns. That means that I have to be very selective on what I post. I think other members who actively help others often do the same thing. They don't want to get too involved with other members when they know that the other members are unlikely to be around for long. They will reserve their best work for other active members or other members who show great promise and may stick around for a while and give something back to the forum.

A lot of members address their questions to Tom Lehmann even when there are other members who can provide the help requested. Since Tom has a full time job with the AIB and writes for various pizza related publications and participates on other forums and in industry/trade events and is also a teacher and consultant who is on the road quite a bit, there is no way for him to answer every question or request for help directed to him. And he is among the most generous persons with his time that I know of in the pizza industry. Also, I suspect that there are members who choose not to respond to questions directed to Tom out of courtesy, given that the poster intentionally sought Tom out for help. I often play the role of facilitator to gather more facts to help Tom provide a fuller or better response but, on occasion, I will provide answers to basic questions that do not need Tom's personal attention.

I appreciate your efforts to help others, much as others have helped you, but as a realist who has been around this place for about 9 years, and most of that time as a Moderator who sees everything that goes on on the forum, I am not optimistic that every member who comes to this forum will always get the best of what the forum can offer to them.

Peter

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Help with Oven Spring
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2013, 12:22:09 PM »
Peter the criticism was not directed at you or Tom. I just assume there are a lot of quality people reading but not responding.

I am very new. I have learn a lot and have a lot more to learn. I am reluctant to respond in fear of not understanding the question and giving wrong advice. I am also a poor writer.

What the site needs is a Pizza 101 that states the obvious from the important of weighing ingredients to popper mixing, defining the different types of pizza and the causes and effects of changing the basics. I have even consider writing it myself but again I am not qualified.

I apologize if I offended anyone
 
Sonny