Author Topic: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions  (Read 1673 times)

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Offline PizzaStation1234

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I want to do a bulk recipe, 3 day fermentation, remove dough from fridge then roll into dough balls, leave at room temp until an order comes, then I'll stretch and top the dough, place in a gas burning double decker brick oven to bake. possible doing 100+ pizzas a day with nice 1/4 thick skin and crispy bottom.

At least that's what I think I'm going to do, but I am far from an expert. Any advice is welcomed on this topic PLEASE!
I wanted to know if the yeast % needs to be lower for a 3 day cold fermentation. This is what I have so far

Flour MONDAKO (100%):    10201.89 g  |  359.86 oz | 22.49 lbs
Water (60%):    6121.14 g  |  215.91 oz | 13.49 lbs
ADY (.50%):    51.01 g | 1.8 oz | 0.11 lbs | 4.5 tbsp | 0.28 cups
Salt (1.5%):    153.03 g | 5.4 oz | 0.34 lbs | 15 tbsp | 0.94 cups
Oil (1%):    102.02 g | 3.6 oz | 0.22 lbs | 7.56 tbsp | 0.47 cups
Sugar (2%):    204.04 g | 7.2 oz | 0.45 lbs | 17.06 tbsp | 1.07 cups
Total (165%):   16833.12 g | 593.76 oz | 37.11 lbs | TF = 0.105
Single Ball:   336.66 g | 11.88 oz | 0.74 lbs

will this work for my 3 day method? If not what should I change? I'll have the oven around 450, should I cook on a slotted pizza tray then finish direct on the brick? Should I Dock the dough? I need wisdom from experience

Any advice is welcomed and need, thank you.


Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2013, 02:04:28 PM »
As far as your workflow, you should ball the dough and get them in trays to go in the walk-in. I've never seen someone do a bulk 3 day ferment and then ball. That would make life tough. When they are balled and in the fridge you just pull dough ball trays out as you go and need them.

As far as your other question about recipe and oven temp, what style of pizza are you trying to make? And no you don't need to dock.

Offline Chaze215

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2013, 05:56:07 PM »
you should ball the dough and get them in trays to go in the walk-in.

 ^^^ Its much easier to ball the dough when the dough is at room temp vs cold.
Chaz

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2013, 09:46:08 PM »
Rack it balled in the walk in and bring out enough for the next 2 hours.  Bulk is to get it where it needs to be, balled is in prep for opening.

Offline PizzaStation1234

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2013, 11:52:47 PM »
I'd like to do a New York style I suppose, I want to do 3 day fermentation for flavor and so the dough isn't too dense. I ant to have 1/4 thick skin TF of .11??? Will ADY work for 3 day ferment or should IDY be used? I will ball the dough right out fo the mixer? or after a days fermentation??

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2013, 12:00:02 AM »
I'd like to do a New York style I suppose, I want to do 3 day fermentation for flavor and so the dough isn't too dense. I ant to have 1/4 thick skin TF of .11??? Will ADY work for 3 day ferment or should IDY be used? I will ball the dough right out fo the mixer? or after a days fermentation??

Your thickness factor should be around .75 according to scott. And I would recommend using IDY. The places I've worked in have used IDY, it is easier. And yes, just ball the dough right out of the mixer. That is not a problem. If you want you can let it bulk for a few hours first if you like. When operating a business you will need to have a schedule though. You could make the dough the night before when you close and ball when you come in. But sometimes doing non-clean up stuff at night is hard. I know a lot of places make their dough in the morning and just ball and then pull it out as needed.

Offline parallei

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2013, 12:11:44 AM »
Your thickness factor should be around .75 according to scott.

You mean TF = 0.075, I think.

Offline PizzaStation1234

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2013, 12:20:33 PM »
Okay TF 0.075, let the dough rest over night in the walk-in, then ball, return to the walk for remaining 3 day ferment. What about the brick oven? 450* should I cook on a slotted pizza tray then finish direct on the brick? Do I need to use less IDY than I would ADY? my ADY is 1.8 oz. Is Mondako good for this type of oven/style?

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2013, 03:27:56 PM »
You're getting into some gray area and asking question that you really need to figure out if you plan to be successful. I can't tell you what flower/hydration/yeast amount etc to use. Each pizzeria does things a little different and that is what makes them unique. In all honesty with no sarcasm,  if you have never really made pizza and don't know much about it, why do you want to open a pizza place? If it's for the business aspect, i would recommend trying to buy into a franchise. I would love to own a little caesars. They will give you all of the recipes and steps and everything you need to know.

Also, as far 450F for a baking temperature, that's no good. Try 650F.

Offline PizzaStation1234

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2013, 09:38:18 PM »
I'm just trying to gain some knowledge on here. I've made pizza plenty of times, I just want to make really good pizza. It's easy to mix everything, ferment, ball, bake and serve, but I want to know everything about making a great pizza and that's why I joined this forum. I have a passion for food and I want to learn from anyone I can. I'm not afraid to admit I don't know everything about making pizza, but I'm trying to learn. I'm sorry if my questions are basic, but I'm trying to get everything perfect and I thought this would be a good place to start.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2013, 10:18:56 PM »
PizzaStation1234,

I will try to address some of your questions tomorrow but on the matter of using a bulk cold fermentation, you might start by reading Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19620.msg192396.html#msg192396 .

In the meantime, can you tell me size pizza you are making?

Peter

Offline PizzaStation1234

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2013, 04:31:25 AM »
Thank you Pete-zza, I'd like to do 12" pie with 1/4" thickness. I really appreciate your knowledge and have browsed through topics you've spoke about. I'm just a 52 year old guy starting late in the pizza game and I'd really like any advice on this process of this 3 day cold ferment, the flour, the yeast, the whole process. I really appreciate the link as well, I'll look through it and learn what i can. Thanks again.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2013, 11:17:43 AM »
PizzaStation1234,

By and large your dough formulation looks fine. However, a 12" pizza size and a thickness factor of 0.105, and especially the thickness factor, are out of the norm for a NY style pizza. There are 12" NY style pizzas somewhere in the universe of NY style pizzas, but more common is at least 14", and up to around 18". There are also thick NY style crusts but they tend to be the products of chains (like Sbarro and "Ray's" pizzas) rather than independents. A more typical thickness factor for a NY style is around 0.075-0.08.

Turning now to the ingredients, if you are using the Mondako flour as noted at page 5 of the Pendleton booklet at http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf, that flour has a protein content of 11.9% and a rated absorption value of 62%. A protein content of 11.9% is a bit on the low side for a NY style pizza but it should work. If you have access to other Pendleton flours, such as the Power flour, I think that that flour would be a better choice. It is also held in very high esteem by our members who have used that flour. If you can find that flour, you should even be able to use a higher hydration value. If you do not have that option, then the 60% hydration value of the dough formulation you posted should work with the Mondako flour. You might even be able to increase it to say, 61%. If you have other flours available to you that you have not mentioned, it might be possible to blend them to increase the protein content.

There is no reason why you can't use either ADY or IDY. ADY required prehydration in water at a temperature of around 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes before using, whereas IDY can be added directly to the flour and other dry ingredients. The 0.50% ADY is fine for your purposes, but if you want to use IDY for its convenience and ease of use, you would use 0.375% IDY. That should work for a three-day cold fermentation where the dough balls have been divided and scaled up front before going into the cooler.

At for the salt, I think that 1.50% is a bit on the low side. I would recommend something in the range of 1.75-2%. You might use the lower end of the range if your sauce includes a fair amount of salt or if your cheese has a high sodium value or you are using salty toppings, especially meat toppings that tend to be high in sodium. 

Your oil and sugar values look fine but if you want to get a bit more volume in the dough and more flavor in the finished crust, you can go to 2-3% oil. As for the sugar, if you will be baking on the stone surface of a deck oven for any reasonable amount of time, you may want to reduce the sugar to 1% or maybe even zero. You didn't indicate why you want to use a "slotted pizza tray". I am not sure what that is. There are some pizza operators who specialize in the NY style pizza who build and dress and bake their pizzas on pizza screens in their deck ovens but usually that is done to either correct or compensate for some defect in their ovens or to make it easier for unskilled workers to assemble and get the pizzas into the oven without the types of mishaps that can occur in the hands of untrained workers using wood peels. Is there a particular reason in your case for using, or wanting to use, a "slotted pizza tray"? Can you show me what that device looks like?

Your bake temperature of around 450 degrees F is in the range of typical deck oven temperatures but it is on the very low end of the range. If you are using a thick crust and a lot of cheese, sauce and toppings, and especially toppings with high water content, you might need a long bake at low oven temperature to be sure that the crust is fully baked and the toppings are fully cooked, but if you are using few toppings and in small amounts, you might be able to use a higher oven temperature, subject to the problem I mentioned with respect to the sugar. You don't want the sugar in the dough to lead to a bottom crust that browns too quickly or even burns.

As for some of the remaining issues, I see no need for docking the dough. Also, as mentioned earlier, I am an advocate of doing the division, scaling and balling of the dough up front for the type of commercial application you are considering. In that vein, you might also find the advice given at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554/topicseen.html#msg64554 to be of value for what you are contemplating doing.

Peter

Offline PizzaStation1234

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2013, 01:00:45 PM »
Wow...this is perfect, everything I needed, thank you so much sir. I do have access to all Pendleton farm flours, I can get the power flour. The slotted pizza tray is similar to the screen, how the screen has a sort of crosshatch scheme to it the slotted pizza trays have a bunch of 1/4" holes all over it, so I am assuming its for the same function. I thought that the screen was to avoid burning the bottom before the topping are cooked and the dough is thoroughly cooked. So if the sugar level is very low, or none at all like you mentioned, then there will not be a problem with possibly burning the bottom before the rest of the pie is cooked? This is great information and I do really appreciate it. I wish I would have learned this stuff decades ago. Now I'll have to start experimenting. 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2013, 01:16:39 PM »
PizzaStation1234,

For cold fermentations of less than about two days, there is no need to have any sugar in the dough since there are enough natural sugars released from the flour during fermentation to feed the yeast and to contribute to crust coloration. However, once you get to three days or more, it is often advised that about 1-2% sugar be added to the dough.

There will always be a need to marry the particular dough formulation you settle upon with the oven that you decide to use. And also the type of carrier you use, whether it is a pizza screen, perforated disk, or a pan. Whether you even need a screen, disk or pan is questionable for a NY style using a deck oven. There are some pizza operators who use such devices but, as earlier noted, it is to either solve an oven problem or to make it easier to use untrained or low-skilled workers.

Peter

Offline PizzaStation1234

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2013, 09:35:06 PM »
Thanks for all your advice, wish I learned this stuff decades ago, but I just retired and now I have time to learn and play around. I'll be on here often I'm sure. Thanks again!!

Offline PizzaStation1234

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2013, 10:52:15 PM »
Quick Question, why should the dough be between 80-85*?? Also, what happens to the dough if the temp is higher or lower than 80-85*? Also, before you add the yeast, when the water is sitting with the flour and salt, is that autolyse? if so how long should it sit before yeast is added and mixer is turned on?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2013, 08:55:39 AM »
Quick Question, why should the dough be between 80-85*?? Also, what happens to the dough if the temp is higher or lower than 80-85*? Also, before you add the yeast, when the water is sitting with the flour and salt, is that autolyse? if so how long should it sit before yeast is added and mixer is turned on?

PizzaStation1234,

You can read my explanation for the 80-85 degrees F finished dough temperature in the first two paragraphs at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23979.msg243776.html#msg243776. If you exceed that temperature range, and all else being equal, the dough will ferment faster. If below that temperature, the dough will ferment more slowly.

Combining water, flour and salt is not technically an autolyse. Technically, the classic autolyse does not include salt. If you would like to read more on this subject, if you conduct a forum search using the term autolyse and my user name (Pete-zza), you will get 200 posts on the subject. A basic discussion of autolyse can also be found at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.msg22856.html#msg22856.

The autolyse period should be fairly brief. You will find cases where the autolyse rest period that people have used was a few minutes to many hours, even overnight. However, Prof. Calvel, who popularized the autolyse method, used from 13 minutes to 50 minutes, and that was for ough batch weights of up to 75 pounds. In a home setting and small dough batch, I would say that 15 minutes should be enough. Evelyne Slomon recommends five minutes in a home setting.

Peter

Offline PizzaStation1234

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2013, 02:25:44 PM »
Thank you. Okay, so the yeast multiplies and fermentation is optimized at 80-85* good to know. I understand the autolyse, of I wanted to sue the technique for this recipe would I reduce kneading time? Say I mix just flour and water on low for 2-3 minutes, until water is absorbed, let it rest for 20 minutes(I do have a 30lb batch though) then knead on medium for?? The recipe for 8 more minutes, but if I autolyse should I shorten that time so the dough doesn't get too much oxygen?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: yeast levels in bulk 3 day cold fermentation recipe+ other questions
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2013, 04:46:20 PM »
Thank you. Okay, so the yeast multiplies and fermentation is optimized at 80-85* good to know. I understand the autolyse, of I wanted to sue the technique for this recipe would I reduce kneading time? Say I mix just flour and water on low for 2-3 minutes, until water is absorbed, let it rest for 20 minutes(I do have a 30lb batch though) then knead on medium for?? The recipe for 8 more minutes, but if I autolyse should I shorten that time so the dough doesn't get too much oxygen?

PizzaStation1234,

I think this post addresses your questions:

Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8205.msg94494/topicseen.html#msg94494

Based on the above, if your recipe calls for an additional eight minutes knead time after the autolyse rest period, you might be able to knock off a few minutes of that time. You may have to play around with this aspect of your dough preparation to fine tune the final mix time and mixer speeds. I never make big dough batches so I can't advise you based on my own experience.

Peter


 

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