Author Topic: first time neapolitan maker needing dough advice  (Read 1530 times)

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Offline keefas@hotmail.co.uk

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first time neapolitan maker needing dough advice
« on: June 27, 2013, 03:47:05 PM »
hi all,

about a year ago i decided i wanted to make better pizza! after some posts on here and other forums seeking advice i have built my own pompeii oven! i'll pop a link up to my build thread if any of you guys wanna take a look . . .

http://ukwoodfiredovenforum.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pompeiiovens&action=display&thread=1209

any comments or advice good or bad will be warmly recived as i'm no expert!!

anyhow as the builds just about completed now i'm looking for a good started neapolitan dough. at the moment i have access to strong bread flour, more specifically allisons strong bread or extra strong bread flour, plain flour and fresh yeast,  IDY or ADY.

i'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction for a suitable dough for a beginner . . . i dont want to completely embarrass myself at the first firing!!

thanks

keith


Offline swatson

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Re: first time neapolitan maker needing dough advice
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2013, 05:12:49 PM »
Hi Keith,

Im Stevie I gave you the Keste clone recipe on the WFO forum did you try it?

Offline csafranek

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Re: first time neapolitan maker needing dough advice
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2013, 10:05:04 PM »
Nice work on the oven Keith!!!

Offline f.montoya

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Re: first time neapolitan maker needing dough advice
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2013, 07:21:32 AM »
Hey Keith,

You are more than welcome to copy my "easy" NP dough process. There are more advanced dough-makers here and you can eventually progress to experimenting with some of their recipes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7wRA3GldOw

I recommend fermenting in the fridge for 2 days and then in a very cool area for at least 4 hours before balling. Then keep your doughballs cool. In Winter, you might be able to get away with less temp control but cooler dough stays soft, pliable, and leopards better in wood fired ovens.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: first time neapolitan maker needing dough advice
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2013, 09:16:09 AM »
Here is how I do it: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.0.html

More than just the recipe, it talks about the workflow, what I want to see in the new and fermented dough, and how I hold it at a temperature below room but not cold (as in the fridge - which I would encourage you to avoid unless you need to do so for reasons of timing).

You might want to start with a 24 hour room temperature dough. For purposes of discussion, I'd define room temperature as roughly 60-80F. Here is one of my favorites: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.0.html. I don't have good access to cake yeast, so I've swapped IDY at 0.03% with good results. Here is a yeast conversion table: http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm Personally, I prefer about 2.8% salt in my Neapolitan dough, so I upped the salt as well.

Less than 24 hours (room temp) and you won't have much flavor, and it will be tougher to get loeparding and an open crumb. To get similar flavor will days several days in the fridge.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline f.montoya

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Re: first time neapolitan maker needing dough advice
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2013, 09:24:06 PM »
Here is how I do it: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.0.html

More than just the recipe, it talks about the workflow, what I want to see in the new and fermented dough, and how I hold it at a temperature below room but not cold (as in the fridge - which I would encourage you to avoid unless you need to do so for reasons of timing).


The idea of keeping dough under room temp but over fridge temp intrigues me. Is there a way to do this without buying equipment for it? Living in Japan, we are challenged with homes with much less space than people in the States so putting another appliance in the living room just is not possible.


Less than 24 hours (room temp) and you won't have much flavor, and it will be tougher to get loeparding and an open crumb. To get similar flavor will days several days in the fridge.


I agree. In my tests, 48 hours was best as far as flavor and good leoparding. 72 hours works fine but beyond that the bubbles begin expanding. All need to come back to a warmer state after refrigeration though.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: first time neapolitan maker needing dough advice
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2013, 10:54:24 AM »
The idea of keeping dough under room temp but over fridge temp intrigues me. Is there a way to do this without buying equipment for it? Living in Japan, we are challenged with homes with much less space than people in the States so putting another appliance in the living room just is not possible.



Yes, and it's very simple (and how I do it is also the third line in the link you just quoted  ;)) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991
Pizza is not bread.

Offline f.montoya

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Re: first time neapolitan maker needing dough advice
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2013, 10:53:44 PM »
Yes, and it's very simple (and how I do it is also the third line in the link you just quoted  ;)) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991


Thanks for the reply Craig. However, and it just may be my own lack of intelligence, I read that thread long ago and never quite fully comprehended  the conclusion of your tests. Although you stated in the first two sentences "I use an Igloo MaxCold 120qt cooler with a ~64oz bottle of ice" and  "I keep a couple extra bottles of ice in the freezer to change out with the one in the cooler on a regular basis (usually 12 hours)" Is that it? Or did you conclude something else based on the left/right/center experiments?

I'm quite busy with running my English school so swapping out ice might be a challenge for me. However, about a year ago, I did get a second refrigerator(small one) which I usually bulk ferment in for 48 hours and then I use a similar idea as you do for the final 12 hours (6 bulk/6 balled) in my home oven, which is another well insulated compartment I make use of. In my oven, I put a blue ice pack on the top shelf and another on the floor of the oven. I place the dough container on the center rack and leave it there. But the idea wasn't temperature control as much as it was about combating the ambient Summer heat/humidity of my home in the morning.

Back to my second fridge, I may just unplug it and try using my blue ice packs inside the main compartment, above and below the dough container and change them when I can, ala your igloo cooler idea. :)

After more than 500 pizzas in the last 9 months, my family is gonna cringe when I tell them pizza for dinner next Saturday...again! The experiments must go on!!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: first time neapolitan maker needing dough advice
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2013, 11:08:59 PM »
Ice block on one side and dough on the other. I only need to swap ice every 12 hours or so. Check the temp. Depending on the size of the bottle you use for ice, the insulation of your cooler, and your ambient temp, your internal temp may be different. Adjust the ice quantity to hit the temp you want.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline f.montoya

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Re: first time neapolitan maker needing dough advice
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2013, 01:37:19 AM »
Ice block on one side and dough on the other. I only need to swap ice every 12 hours or so. Check the temp. Depending on the size of the bottle you use for ice, the insulation of your cooler, and your ambient temp, your internal temp may be different.

Appreciate your clarification. :)

Adjust the ice quantity to hit the temp you want.

I would imaging the low 60's f would be optimum, but what temps do you think should be avoided and what might they cause to the dough?


Offline keefas@hotmail.co.uk

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Re: first time neapolitan maker needing dough advice
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2013, 04:37:40 AM »
Hi all, thanks for your replies!

Hi Keith,

Im Stevie I gave you the Keste clone recipe on the WFO forum did you try it?


stevie . . yea i tried the keste clone but i didn't have much success with it :(, i'm not sure if i did something wrong though tbh as it seemed to be a very dry dough, however i did you strong bread flour instead of 00 so not sure if that made a difference? i'm going to give it another shot with 00 and i'll let you know!

i have since picked up some sainsburys 00 flour and it has improved the dough i've been making! its made the dough more elastic and better to stretch i was having tearing issues before using bread or AP flour!

Here is how I do it: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.0.html

More than just the recipe, it talks about the workflow, what I want to see in the new and fermented dough, and how I hold it at a temperature below room but not cold (as in the fridge - which I would encourage you to avoid unless you need to do so for reasons of timing).

You might want to start with a 24 hour room temperature dough. For purposes of discussion, I'd define room temperature as roughly 60-80F. Here is one of my favorites: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.0.html. I don't have good access to cake yeast, so I've swapped IDY at 0.03% with good results. Here is a yeast conversion table: http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm Personally, I prefer about 2.8% salt in my Neapolitan dough, so I upped the salt as well.

Less than 24 hours (room temp) and you won't have much flavor, and it will be tougher to get loeparding and an open crumb. To get similar flavor will days several days in the fridge.


thanks TX i've read through your posts before and hope to eventually get up to your standard, your pies look stunning  :)! i'm going to have a look through the 24 hour room temp dough you suggested and try that to get me going! what hydration would you suggest is good for a beginner? i had a go at the reinheart 'neo' neapolitan dough before i got hold of any 00 flour, it was quite hard to work with and was quite soupy i think because bread flour doesn't absorb the water aswell as 00 , i think the hydration on that dough is 70 odd%, though it was hard to work with it gave me a good oven spring and produced a half decent pizza, do you get a better spring and crust from a wetter dough? also how much %IDY should i be using for and long ferment as i dont want to much activity right? does 00 flour stretch better at fridge temp than room temp?

again thanks to everyone for the replies atm i'm just trying to find a fairly simple recipe i can reproduce consistantly than produces a decent oven spring! also i noticed that 00 flour doesn't seem to char as fast as AP or strong bread flour allowing higher oven temps and faster bake times!

keith

top and bottom shots of one of my first pies don't be too harsh i'm still learning  ;) !





Offline keefas@hotmail.co.uk

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Re: first time neapolitan maker needing dough advice
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2013, 04:46:58 AM »
Hey Keith,

You are more than welcome to copy my "easy" NP dough process. There are more advanced dough-makers here and you can eventually progress to experimenting with some of their recipes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7wRA3GldOw

I recommend fermenting in the fridge for 2 days and then in a very cool area for at least 4 hours before balling. Then keep your doughballs cool. In Winter, you might be able to get away with less temp control but cooler dough stays soft, pliable, and leopards better in wood fired ovens.

hi montoya,  great video! at the moment i'm not using caputo just regular 00 from my local supermarket! is caputo much different/ better? once i get the hang of it i'll have to order a bag but its rather expensive here in the uk and can only get it in large bags! would i be better following your 'how to make a classic neapolitan dough' if not using caputo brand 00 flour?

keith