Author Topic: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?  (Read 6149 times)

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Offline oknewell

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2013, 11:22:47 PM »
I think the first step in answering the question is in defining what a Neapolitan pizza is.  Both specs that are posted, attempt to do just that.  They give an idea of what a Neapolitan pizza should look like, how it's made, and express a subset of the collective opinions of concerned pizza makers at the times they were  written.  Like it or not, the Neapolitan pizza surely has changed since the first chef produced one.  Both standards chose a point in time they believe is the most authentic and traditional.  Does that make them the best? Why can't I hand mix my dough and make a Neapolitan pizza?  Surely the folks of yore didn't use mixers.  So if you're legalistic about the 00 flour the answer is maybe.  If you believe that making a Neapolitan pizza is a philosophy, my answer is of course you can.


Offline iRobertO

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2013, 02:10:13 AM »
So Craig I know this is off topic from the spirit of the discussion, but after all your pizza cooking and eating, do you think you could make a Napoletana pizza that is equal to your 00 based pizzas? And, if you had to eat yours blindfolded, could you tell the difference?

I'm on the side that if you don't use 00 flour it isn't pizza napoletana (of course I'm the type that refuses to say the word Neapolit*n).. If you deviate on too many things you get pizza hut, where do you draw the line?

This whole conversation makes me think of that documentary about counterfeiting where they counterfeit eggs.. Just because some people believe they are doesn't mean they actually are.

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Offline rrweather

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2013, 05:46:45 AM »
While new to the pizza making process, I find this discussion intriguing. I think I draw the line at the point you are selling pizzas labeled Neopolitan. Once you are selling a pie that you claim to be specifically Neopolitan, you should meet the required standards. Using the car analogy, I can call my Nissan whatever I want. I can't sell it has a Toyota. If the type of flour is not specified, I don't know how you could violate any rules. Once you start breaking away from tradition without breaking a rule,  you will be judged. I'm sure attorneys could argue for days over this point.

I'm not sure it's the same example, but certain countries have lax rules when it comes to wine labeling. As a result, a cabernet from one country can be a very different blend of grapes from another cabernet and still be labeled and sold as a cabernet. Not sure it's right or wrong. Ultimately it's up to the person consuming something to decide if they enjoy it. If a person is hung up on tradition, he or she can choose to only buy and consume the more traditional product.

Luckily for me, I just like good pizza and wine, regardless of how it's labeled!

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2013, 06:25:48 AM »
North America has one of the best wheat in the World, part of the composition o Caputo flour is done with this kind of wheat, its just a matter of using the right way of milling to get the flour to behave the same way an Italian product does. I live in Brazil, so i have no access to GM Neapolitan flour, so its very hard to discuss (in my opinion) if the flour is fitted to get the same results.

About the VPN Disciplinary, its a guide line to where to start, they always say, minimum of 8 hours and maximum of 3g of CY per Liter of water. Sure the pizza could have higher Hydration, but it cant become a Ciabatta dough (very soft and extremely wet), as i said before, its always a guide line, because at the end Pizza Napoletana is a artisan product, and each person touches the dough different, even if you get the same dough and give it to 2 or 3 pizzaiolos they will come out of the oven different.
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scott123

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2013, 07:49:41 AM »
When I make a Margherita, I'm trying to make the best Neapolitan pie I can make; I'm not trying to be "Neapolitan inspired" or "Neapolitan-style" or anything except Neapolitan. I'm not trying to flatter through imitation. I'm trying to respect by constantly trying to achieve perfection. When I put pepperoni on it, then It's probably appropriate to call it "Neapolitan-style" or the like.  ;D

Please don't equate the word 'style' with 'inspired by' or 'influenced by'.  It can have that meaning outside of pizza, but, for pizza, traditionally, style has been used (and only used) to avoid geographical confusion- if say, someone is making NY pizza in Boise, rather than call it 'NY pizza,' they'd call it 'NY style'.  It's the exact same pizza as NY, though (or should be).  Once you start playing the 'style means a looser definition for pizza' game,  you're ignoring a common language and wreaking havoc on goals for authenticity for a pizza style outside of it's birthplace.

NY pizza = NY style pizza
Neapolitan pizza = Neapolitan style pizza

If I could go back 100 years and substitute a different word, I would, but, for pizza, this is it.

Edit: Think about it. Keste is NY pizza.  It is, literally, pizza made in NY. It is only by using the term 'style' where the genre of pizza becomes clear.  Keste is Neapolitan style pizza made in NY.  Keste is not 'Neapolitan inspired' pizza. It's a horrible word and the dual meaning can be confusing, but, it's what's been used for decades and there's no changing it now.  The only way to avoid the confusion is to understand it's common definition.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 08:02:32 AM by scott123 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Offline italdream

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2013, 10:20:15 AM »
I thought about this a bit more and the question reminds me, to some extent, the history of the super tuscans.

From wikipedia:
"Super Tuscans are an unofficial category of Tuscan wines, not recognized within the Italian wine classification system. The origin of Super Tuscans is rooted in the restrictive DOC practices of the Chianti zone prior to the 1990s. During this time Chianti could be composed of no more than 70% Sangiovese and had to include at least 10% of one of the local white wine grapes. Producers who deviated from these regulations could not use the Chianti name on their wine labels and would be classified as vino da tavola - Italy's lowest wine designation. By the 1970s, the consumer market for Chianti wines was suffering and the wines were widely perceived to be lacking quality. Many Tuscan wine producers thought they could produce a better quality wine if they were not hindered by the DOC regulations.[6]

To me what Craig advocates sounds like creating a Super Neapolitan pizza, a pizza that goes beyond the (official and unofficial) standards of pizza napoletana, to create what some people may judge as being a better product.

I argue that this may be possible, perhaps using non 00 flour, other changes, and knowing Craig's skills and perfectionism.
I also think that most people would see certain variations as deviating from the tradition, thus not lending well to the traditional denomination of pizza napoletana.

But, resuming the super tuscan analogy, it does not mean that a super Neapolitan cannot be created...

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2013, 10:31:34 AM »
I thought about this a bit more and the question reminds me, to some extent, the history of the super tuscans.

While this may also be an interesting discussion, as I've stated several times now, this has absolutely nothing to do with my original question.

This is not about improving Neapolitan pizza or changing its character in any way. This is about making the best Neapolitan pizza you can with what you have available while specifically maintaining the traditional sensory qualities of Neapolitan pizza. It's also not about what I can do - it's about what any specific pizzamaker/pizzeria can do in their own, unique situation.

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Offline italdream

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2013, 10:35:02 AM »
Craigs I view the discussion as fluid. If anything I (and others) say is tagged as not being within the boundary of your question, your question would be better served with a poll with a Y/N answer.
I will refrain from posting further observation on this topic since that are systematically construed as being off topic.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2013, 10:35:07 AM »
About the VPN Disciplinary, its a guide line to where to start, they always say, minimum of 8 hours and maximum of 3g of CY per Liter of water. Sure the pizza could have higher Hydration, but it cant become a Ciabatta dough (very soft and extremely wet), as i said before, its always a guide line, because at the end Pizza Napoletana is a artisan product, and each person touches the dough different, even if you get the same dough and give it to 2 or 3 pizzaiolos they will come out of the oven different.

Wouldn't it then be hypocritical for them to apply a different standard to the flour? Either that, or I'm missing the part of the standard which identifies which specifications are starting points and which are strict.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2013, 10:38:02 AM »
Craigs I view the discussion as fluid. If anything I (and others) say is tagged as not being within the boundary of your question, your question would be better served with a poll with a Y/N answer.
I will refrain from posting further observation that are systematically construed as being off topic.

That's fine, but it's confusing as in the context of the original question, "better" means one pie I make is better than another, but both are intended to be in the spirit of traditional Neapolitan pizza. In the context I perceive your comments, "better" would mean a new product that is better than the traditional Neapolitan pizza. That is a very different thing.
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Offline italdream

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2013, 11:07:36 AM »
That's fine, but it's confusing as in the context of the original question, "better" means one pie I make is better than another, but both are intended to be in the spirit of traditional Neapolitan pizza. In the context I perceive your comments, "better" would mean a new product that is better than the traditional Neapolitan pizza. That is a very different thing.

I see but then why do not need to even ask the question? Use whatever ingredients make your pizza better, and call it as you want, Neapolitan or not. I do not see a problem. Why would you care if others will view it as Neapolitan. It won't offend me (or any other Neapolitan on the planet), if you make a pizza at home with other ingredients and call it Neapolitan.

Also the question is terribly asked and open to myriads of interpretations.

You ask "does Neapolitan pizza really need to be made with “00” flour to be correctly called “Neapolitan?"

Define Called by whom: by me, by you, by the people on the forum, by people in Naples, by the DOP EC officials.
Define correctly.
And of course define better.

If you pose a question like that you are opening the topic to discussion. But every other answer you get is off topic...
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 11:09:15 AM by italdream »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2013, 11:26:19 AM »
I see but then why do not need to even ask the question? Use whatever ingredients make your pizza better, and call it as you want, Neapolitan or not. I do not see a problem. Why would you care if others will view it as Neapolitan. It won't offend me (or any other Neapolitan on the planet), if you make a pizza at home with other ingredients and call it Neapolitan.

I’m asking this in the larger context – I agree, who cares what is done at home. That’s not what interests me. If I own a restaurant someday, I fully intend to call my pizza Neapolitan. However, even that is not why I asked the question. I asked because it is something I’ve thought about from time to time, and the Reinhart quote was so black-and-white, it struck me as wrong.

Quote
Also the question is terribly asked and open to myriads of interpretations.

If it is, that’s just me doing a poor job of asking it. It should be very cut and dried.

Quote
You ask "does Neapolitan pizza really need to be made with “00” flour to be correctly called “Neapolitan?"

Define Called by whom: by me, by you, by the people on the forum, by people in Naples, by the DOP EC officials.
Define correctly.

By the person selling it. Clearly there is no law that prevents someone from calling their pizza “Neapolitan” here in the US. I’m simply pondering if one can do so without feeling like they’re being disingenuous or deceitful.

Quote
And of course define better.

As I’m using it, “better” 100% in the eye of the owner. The owner should have a vision of the perfect Neapolitan pizza and should strive to realize it. He should not be held back by the lack of two zeros on a bag of flour. If your vision of perfect NP is different than mine, perhaps you don’t eat at my restaurant. If enough people agree with my vision, I’ll be successful. Speaking only for myself, I would not open a pizzeria if I didn’t think my vision was the one the consumers would agree with. How could I have passion if I felt forced to make a pizza that was not what I thought was perfect? I would be miserable every day.

Quote
If you pose a question like that you are opening the topic to discussion. But every other answer you get is off topic...

I’m all for discussion on or off the topic, but when you respond to the question with an off-topic answer as if it’s on topic – particularly when that off-topic answer completely changes the scope of the question –  it’s not helpful is it?
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scott123

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2013, 11:28:02 AM »
Craig, may I ask why this topic is so important to you?  You've always struck me as being pretty apolitical in regards to classification. Or is classification more of a personal thing- how other people classify their pizza is their business, but it's important to you that your pizza be as authentic as possible.  Is that it?

I make no VPN/STG/authentic/true/'Neapolitan pizza'/'Neapolitan style pizza' distinction, btw. Everything is Neapolitan style to me. While there are outliers, Neapolitan pizza is one of the easiest to define foods on the planet.  The specifications weren't pulled from thin air.  They reflect the style of pizza from most pizzerias in Naples.  They reflect the style of pizza of every conscientious member of this forum- as well as the style of pizza of the most famous domestic Neapolitan pizzerias. It's all the same pizza.

I do not take all of the guidelines literally, though.  I judge each criteria strictly by it's impact on the end product. I am entirely results based.  I freak out about 4 minute NP bake times, not because the rules state 60-90 seconds, but, because a 4 minute bake changes the nature of the pizza dramatically and it becomes something else.  While I didn't notice it right away, Jeff's issues with whole wheat not being anything like NP are completely founded.

Da Michele uses seed oil on their pies.  Does it change the nature of the pizza? Does it make it any less Neapolitan?  Hell, no.  Toby's Nearlypolitan, baked in an electric oven, was/is as authentic as you can possibly get. Heat does not discriminate. Your Italian Centos don't change the nature one iota.  The GM Neapolitan flour?  Again, the same thing. I would like to see a few more heavy hitters taking it for a trial run, but, as long as the results are identical with the GM, the pizza made from it will be:

Authentic
True
STG
VPN
Neapolitan
Neapolitan Style

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2013, 11:30:17 AM »
Craigs I view the discussion as fluid. If anything I (and others) say is tagged as not being within the boundary of your question, your question would be better served with a poll with a Y/N answer.

This is not about consensus. A poll wouldn't add anything. I'm not particularly interested in if people think yes or no but rather why they think yes or no.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2013, 11:38:48 AM »
Craig, may I ask why this topic is so important to you? 

I wouldn't say it's important to me per-se. Rather, Reinhart's quote and Jeff's comment at Slice the other day were so black-and-white, I thought it was worthy of discussion because I don't see it black-and-white at all.
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scott123

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2013, 12:26:07 PM »
I wouldn't say it's important to me per-se. Rather, Reinhart's quote and Jeff's comment at Slice the other day were so black-and-white, I thought it was worthy of discussion because I don't see it black-and-white at all.

Well, you should know my feelings about Reinhart by now  ;D He's a great guy, and very knowledgeable on some matters, but Neapolitan and Reinhart are different universes. Jeff's issue (a whole wheat pie being called 'Neapolitan' by the most active pizza site on the net) is very black and white.  If you dig deep enough, there's tinges of gray in seed oil, non-Neapolitan ovens, non SM tomatoes and non 00 flour, but, not enough gray to challenge the black and whiteness of Jeff's issue, or, imo, to be of much consequence.

As a guy that overthinks EVERYTHING, Cento Italian and GM 00 inauthenticity never even crossed my mind.  Either they create the correct result, or they don't- and, so far, it's proven that they do.


Offline wheelman

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2013, 03:47:49 PM »
i think with something like neapolitan pizza, there's value in tradition.  when someone who's used to domino's asks "what's this?" and i can answer that i'm trying my level best to make a pizza just like you could get on the streets of Naples - i'm going so far as to import every single ingredient from Naples right down to the seeds to grow the basil to top this pizza.  I'm using, as close as i can get, every tool traditionally used to make such a pizza, and i'm studying at night to learn every detail of how this is traditionally done... that this adds something to the deal even if you can't taste most of it on the plate.  it also keeps me on track to try to get better knowing that i'm not on a detour that might take me further from the goal of making this pizza. 
on the other hand, if this flour would be classified by whoever does such as 00 because of the way it's milled and the wheat comes from the same place, who's to say that has anything to do with it?  i think i would be happy to use the Columbian buffala mozzarrelo if it tasted the same as my favorite calabrian version.  that flour obviously works great so i really don't think anyone should avoid using it if it presents advantages.  for retail i think the proof is in the pudding.  if it's real on the plate, you can call it neapolitan in my book. 

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2013, 06:59:33 PM »
Wouldn't it then be hypocritical for them to apply a different standard to the flour? Either that, or I'm missing the part of the standard which identifies which specifications are starting points and which are strict.

Craig, this is from the Italian disciplinary

2.1.1 Prodotti (per dettagli si vedano le schede tecniche allegate)
Farina di grano tenero 00: Prodotto granulare ottenuto dalla macinazione e
conseguente abburattamento (raffinazione) di grano tenero, di colore bianco, esente da
puntature.E’ consentita l’aggiunta di farina di grano tenero tipo 0 (Manitoba) in
piccole percentuali (dal 5 al 20% max, in funzione delle temperature esterne) per
rinforzare la farina di grano tenero di tipo 00.
I valori ottimali per una lievitazione lunga tesa ad ottenere una pasta con buon rapporto
estensibilità/elasticità:
W: 220 - 380
P/L: 0,50 - 0,70
Assorbimento: 55 - 62
Stabilità: 4 - 12
Value index - Caduta E10: max 60
Falling: 300 - 400
Glutine secco: 9,5 - 11 g %
Proteine: 11 - 12,5 g %
Tali valori sono tipici di farine di media forza, equilibrate e con buone attitudini alla
panificazione.


As you can see a W 220 can make great 6-8 hour pizza and because of the low W it will not take high hydration around 55%, and a high W 380 will ferment very well for longer periods and also will take a higher Hydration. This is something technical not a guess or an opinion. Neapolitan pizza is part science, but also (in homage of OMID) philosophical....
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2013, 07:52:07 PM »
Andre,

Do you have any thoughts on why the AVPN disciplinary specifies 00 specifically when the TSG specification does not? I have to believe it has to do with a financial flow to them. Quite frankly, I have a very hard time assigning any credibility to the AVPN.
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Offline andreguidon

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2013, 08:35:23 PM »
Craig,

I asked this to Gianni Improta (pizzeria Al 22) why 00 flour was the way to go, he told me (and he is 40 and 3rd generation pizzaiolo) that since he was a kid in the pizzeria he always saw 00 flour around, the mill that was most used in Naples (wen he was a Kid) was Polselli (http://www.polselli.eu/) and his father always added Farina Americana (Manitoba) to make it stronger, also said that 00 Flour was not something that was found in supermarkets, but only for professionals. Maybe modern 00 has what Neapolitan pizzaiolos always needed before Caputo or even 5Stagioni developed the right blend...
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Online Jackitup

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2013, 11:42:40 PM »
I'll toss in my 2c if I may. I say yes. Here's a couple somewhat unrelated examples. Capicola for instance is briefly brined/washed in wine, salted, spiced, rubbed and hung to cure/age around 50-60 degrees for several weeks. I use my vacuum tumbler to get the cure and spices deep into the meat in a few hours, rest overnite to let the meat rest and then do a 24 hour very slow, lite smoke increasing temp in stages til meat get to 155ish and never render fat/cook the meat and it comes out nicely dried and texturally damned near as good as the real deal.
Several years ago when I was dabbling more in cracker crusts as was Peter, I made whet could be called a high hydration cracker crust with the hydration being around 55-56% as I remember. It was stretched and lightly rolled thin, docked, par-baked and topped and was one of the better cracker crusts I've made, I think Peter tried it too and liked it. Some said it was NOT a cracker crust because it was not 36% hydration and the dough before rolling should look like wet sand and bust your ass rolling it out. End result was that the pizza had a very thin, crackery crust and side by side with other lower hydration ones was very good. Point being, changing a couple things in percentages, techniques, ingredients, temps, ovens, if the end result is pretty much indistinguishable from the original, YES, you have a cloned version. My thoughts anyway, take the highway or the back roads you still can get there and sometimes the back roads are more fun and educating learning new things,

jon
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2013, 07:06:07 PM »
Allow me to make my contribution to Craig's original discourse. This issue, of course, can be approached from different perspectives, normative, ethical, or else, each with its own persuasive force. I enjoyed the different perspectives the members have brought to this discussion so far. Let me see if I can add to them. 

§1. Art
Viewed from one perspective, art is a medium of expressing the human experiences, which are of infinite range. For instance, human desires, emotions, ambitions, and et cetera. Viewed from another perspective, art is about possibilities (derived from Latin word posse, "to be able"; hence, "capable of happening"). In this narrow sense, art, in its totality, is significative, amongst other things, of life's polarities, ironies, and paradoxes of human thoughts and actions. An ideal of artistic expression, since the time of German Romanticism which swept across Europe in 18th and 19th centuries, is to experience every side of polarities, never to become rigid or static, never to become confined, the prisoner of any one mode of thought or way of life, but always to be in pursuit of the infinite. Goethe's Faust proclaimed, "Insofar as I am static, I am enslaved." It was the Romantic yearning for every experience, for infinity, that led Faust to sell his soul to the devil.

§2. Art and Tradition
Art creates, it does not just copy. The great German Romantic composer Ludwig van Beethoven understood that to create new music, the old laws had to be broken or modified. So he did, courageously. For years, many considered his music unusual, improper, deviant, ignoble, or even morally distasteful. However, today, the maestro's music is considered one of the indispensable pillars of the classical repertoire. According to philosopher Walter Kaufmann:

"The great artist does not stick to any established code; yet his work is not lawless but has structure and form. Beethoven did not conform to the rules of Haydn or Mozart; yet his symphonies have form throughout. Their form and law Beethoven created with them [namely, the legacies of Hayden and Mozart]. To create involves going 'beyond. . .'."

Art creates; tradition preserves. The tension between art and tradition has alway been there, often giving birth to change. Both Haydn and Mozart also experienced this tension in their own times. Both had to break or modify some rules, set by their predecessors, in order to gain immortality. As another example, consider the High Renaissance artist Michelangelo. The man, who sculpted "David", respected and copied ancient Greek and Roman statues, yet he set out to better them within their own traditions. It takes venturesome and valorous individuals to challenge the standards of their time and to go beyond, what Friedrich Nietzsche called, "good and evil". The history of art is abound with paradigm-shifters such as Michelangelo, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven who changed the standards of their times.

If making Neapolitan pizza is considered an art and tradition, then one needs to somehow deal with the tension between the two.

§3. Change/Evolution
It is a given that change or flux is an all-pervading, omnipresent fact of the natural world and history of mankind. In my opinion, the history of Neapolitan pizza, as I understand it, has not been immune to the flux. As I comprehend the history of pizzas of Naples (which is reflected in my own blog), what we call "Neapolitan pizza" today—is an aftermath of a long evolutionary process. The pre-modern pizzas of Naples (i.e., prior to the advent of modernity in 1600s) have very little in common with the modern pizzas of Naples in early 1700s and onward. As discussed in my blog, each description of pizzas provided by Bartolomeo Scappi (1500s), Giambattista Basile (1600s), Vincinzo Corrado (1700s), Alexander Dumas (1800s), Francesco de Bourcard (1800s), and Raffaele Esposito (1800s) varies from one another, sometimes substantially and sometimes insubstantially. Given the past history of pizzas of Naples, there may not be any guarantee that what will be deemed as Neapolitan pizza a century from now will conform to the standards of today.

§4. The People
According to Antonio Pace, "Neapolitan pizza has no inventors, no fathers, no masters, but is the fruit of the creativity of the Neapolitan people." Yes, the people! But, “people” is a tricky concept. It definitely does not imply a single individual. It may not convey a process of establishing consensus among the people either. Perhaps, this is where a crucial role of artists becomes essential: to creatively bring to conscious awareness the spirit of a people, their aspirations, their creative potentials, their existential possibilities.

Good day!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 02:41:40 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

scott123

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2013, 02:47:58 AM »
Do you have any thoughts on why the AVPN disciplinary specifies 00 specifically when the TSG specification does not? I have to believe it has to do with a financial flow to them. Quite frankly, I have a very hard time assigning any credibility to the AVPN.

I hate the corrupt and mercenary nature of the AVPN just as much as the next guy, but it's important to bear in mind that corrupt organizations/corrupt people can still do good things. I believe that there's solid evidence that Abraham Lincoln condoned all of General Sherman's activities.  This would, by it's modern definition, qualify him as a war criminal.  But he also freed the slaves.  (Most likely) bad person, good deed. My grandfather was the archetypal corrupt union boss.  I doubt he had anyone killed, but kickbacks, bribes and coercion were his bread and butter. And yet, while in the state senate, he was instrumental in having route 80 built. I have no doubt that he got kickbacks from the contracts for rt. 80, just like AVPN most likely has their hand in the 00 cookie jar, but just because he/they were/are corrupt, doesn't mean everything they touch is garbage.  Interstate highways are responsible for a great deal of the prosperity we enjoy today.  They are the nation's arteries.  Corrupt man, good deed.  Corrupt organization, good specifications.

Craig, as far as I know, neither you nor I have been to Naples, but we know countless people that have.  Out of the countless travel reports you've read, have you ever heard of a Neapolitan pizzeria using anything but 00?  I haven't.  Have you heard of any respected domestic Neapolitan pizzerias using anything other than 00? They don't exist.

00 is far too ubiquitous to ignore.  Regardless of their motivations, AVPN was right on the money with the 00 spec. Don't throw the 00 specification baby out with the corrupted bathwater.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 03:00:44 AM by scott123 »

Offline f.montoya

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2013, 06:04:03 AM »
Question...

Is there any specific quality, flavor or feature of a finished Neapolitan pie crust that simply cannot be reproduced without a 00 four?

The answer to this, I would think, answers the main question. Even though I taste a difference now that I use Caputo, I lean toward "no 00...no problem". But I just don't have that many great flours to choose from in Japan.