Author Topic: Dough Dr to the rescue....please  (Read 879 times)

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Offline jazzflo

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Dough Dr to the rescue....please
« on: August 04, 2013, 05:12:31 PM »
Hello all, i am new to the pizza quest ( 6 months) but have seriously been bitten by the bug.  i am driving friends and family insane through my incessant babbling about pizza dough! I am hoping to start a wood-fire oven business, taking my trusty trailer and oven to various festivals food shows. i have followed Jeff Varasano's pizza recipe for his Neo style pizza, as they look amazing, (as do a lot of others on this forum) but as you would suspect from my lack of experience, i am struggling to get this down.

When my dough has aged in the fridge 2 - 3 days it comes out of the container ok although it seems a little on the wet side ( it would be difficult to pick it up and dip it in flour as it would start to stretch on its own accord!) When i stretch the dough by pushing, it becomes thin very quickly, almost always gets wrinkled, stretching it with my fists becomes too difficult as the dough is almost transparent by this stage and sometimes starts to rip, and by the time i place on the peel it is creased and often with rips . Also when i stretch the dough and i manage to avoid a tear (and tears), i find that the dough comes out thin in parts which results in an uneven baked pizza. When i window pane after mixing ( i use a kitchen aid at the moment) the dough can handle being stretched to create a good windowpane.

I rarely end up adding all of the remaining 25% of flour that is added after the initial autolyse and mixing for 5 mins of the 8 that is roughly required. sometimes i  autolyse for much longer periods to allow further gluten development (up to 1 hour at times, is this wise?) I also find that if i add the salt to early whilst mixing in the KA, the dough  forms a ball around the hook which makes the remaining flour difficult to incorporate. I then resort to hand mixing using a stretch and fold technique.

I am currently experimenting with a 50/50 mix of flour, one which has a starting protein of 13.9, and another which is 11.5.

Is it possible that i am mixing too long, would extra time autolysing have a bad effect on the dough? I have in some posts read that the dough may have been overworked or there is too much gluten which would result a dough that is difficult to stretch? Not sure how this can be if NY style uses HG flour?

i am also finding that following jeff v's formula for three pizzas i am always short for the 310 g he uses for each of them. How would i increase my measurements to get enough dough?

Many thanks

Darren


Offline jazzflo

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Re: Dough Dr to the rescue....please
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 06:31:31 PM »
I guess i should  and add a little clarity to my procedure in hope that i can get help!

My dough formula:

100% flour 50/50 mix of 13.9 and 11.5 protein

65 % water

9% active starter 50/50 mix = 100%  starter?

1/8 teaspoon IDY

3.5% salt

I mix water, 75 %of the flour, active starter, and autolyse for 20 mins to half hour (sometimes longer to experiment with this stage). I then add yeast, mix for 30 secs or so then add salt. The dough at this point looks it should , wet with the dough hook going through the dough. 5 mins in i add the remaining flour over a period of 5 -10 mins until it forms a ball. I check it with a little flour and it is really soft to the touch; sometimes i give a few stretch and folds for extra gluten development. I window pane at this point and it is good. I rest for another period of 20 mins (never longer as full development has been achieved).

I then ball the dough and place in lightly oiled containers, leave in ambient temperature for 10 mins then fridge for 2 - 3 days. When the dough comes out of the fridge, there are a lot of bubbles when i look at the bottom of my plastic container? I then leave for about 1.5 hours in its container before i encounter the problems in my previous post. The dough is also very shiny, wet and on the gloopy side?

Many thanks

« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 07:27:32 PM by jazzflo »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Dough Dr to the rescue....please
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 10:00:46 PM »
For a 2-3 day ferment, IMO, "autolyse" is a waste of time. You also may be overworking your dough. You don't need to work the dough much if you are going to let it sit for that long. If it's going to rest for 24+ hours, you really don't even need to work it at all if you don't want to. I do, but the total time machine and hand kneading is only a couple minutes. 

The shiny, wet, and gloopy look sounds like the starter is breaking down the gluten structure in your dough. This would also explain the problems you are having when opening the dough balls. You might try less starter or less time in the fridge*. Varasano's starter was likely just baker's yeast and not sourdough (he got it from Patsy's and they don't use a sourdough culture as he believed). His method might not work with your starter (I'm assuming it's sourdough and not simply a preferment of baker's yeast). What culture are you using?

*Personally, I think it is very sub-optimal from both a flavor and texture standpoint to put a sourdough-leavened dough in the fridge.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline jazzflo

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Re: Dough Dr to the rescue....please
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 12:47:37 PM »
Hi Craig, thank you so much for your response.

I have tried 24 hours in the fridge and have encountered the same problems with the dough so i am hoping that the problem is my SD starter. The culture i use is one that was given to me by a baker friend. when he gave it to me (about 3 months ago), i discarded all but 100 g and built it up myself, feeding 100g of both water and flour; i repeated this process for a few days and keep it in the fridge. the night before making pizza i take 40 g starter 40 flour 40 water and leave over night until bubbly and then use. i do this as opposed to leaving it out and feeding twice daily.

Should i invest in a proven culture?

can you explain what you mean by 'IMO' in relation to the autolyse being a waste of time please. I found some acronym explanations on the forum but i don't seem to be able to find them now!

On reducing my SD....Any ideas on bakers percentage i should start with in relation to this? i notice you use bakers percentage of 1.3 to 1300 g flour. should i start my experiments from there? to give you a picture on how my culture behaves  - after feeding it takes about 7 hours for it too become mature.

On your comment about putting sourdough - leavened dough in the fridge. does this mean that you think it would be best to use a warm rise if i am to use a SD in my dough? At first it seemed an easier option for me to find a methodology that would not adhere to the seemingly more complex, temperature controlled warm rise, as i plan to be on the move a fair bit with my dough keeping me company and it might be difficult keeping the dough at consistent temperatures? Now i am not too sure and a rethink may be in order? Could you explain a little why you use a warm rise or why you think this is a advantageous to the NP dough.

If i am to try and get the hang of a cold rise method do i need to be aware of final dough temperature before going into the fridge?

When baked my crusts rise up like small mountains! Should i dock the pizza before baking to eliminate this? If so, do i just dock on the cornice? Any ideas why for this happens? I did read on a couple of reasons why this occurs and forgot to write it down, now i cant find the thread.

I am using Allison's flour currently. i don't deserve to use Caputo or of the like until i am worthy. Would my flour type have a big effect on my final product. I am guessing that it would not be a problem for yourself and many others on this forum!

Thank you for your Patience.

Much appreciated.

Darren
 



 











Online JD

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Re: Dough Dr to the rescue....please
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 02:53:33 PM »
Do you take your 100% hydration starter into consideration when calculating hydration %?   

A 65% hydration dough is very wet, especially if you're new at handling dough. If you don't consider your starter hydration, you may actually be making a ~68% dough.

Without changing anything else in your process, bring your hydration down to 60% and see what you think.




When baked my crusts rise up like small mountains! Should i dock the pizza before baking to eliminate this? If so, do i just dock on the cornice? Any ideas why for this happens? I did read on a couple of reasons why this occurs and forgot to write it down, now i cant find the thread.


This is a good thing if you are attempting to make Neapolitan! It means your gluten structure and fermentation have been achieved. The high hydration would also give additional rise.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 03:19:31 PM by JD »
Josh

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Dough Dr to the rescue....please
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 03:43:50 PM »
Should i invest in a proven culture?

Maybe if you canít get the results you want out of this one.

Quote
can you explain what you mean by 'IMO' in relation to the autolyse being a waste of time please. I found some acronym explanations on the forum but i don't seem to be able to find them now!

IMO = In My Opinion

Quote
On reducing my SD....Any ideas on bakers percentage i should start with in relation to this? i notice you use bakers percentage of 1.3 to 1300 g flour. should i start my experiments from there? to give you a picture on how my culture behaves  - after feeding it takes about 7 hours for it too become mature.

I typically use fully active culture that weighs between 1.3% and 1.7% of my weight of flour. I.e., If I use 1300g flour and I wanted 1.3% culture, Iíd use 16.9g culture. You are just going to have to experiment and see how changes affect the results - don't change anything else chen you change the culture quantity, or you won't know what is doing what. This table can give you some guidance how how long it will take with a given % of culture at a specific temperature(s): http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.0.html

Quote
On your comment about putting sourdough - leavened dough in the fridge. does this mean that you think it would be best to use a warm rise if i am to use a SD in my dough? At first it seemed an easier option for me to find a methodology that would not adhere to the seemingly more complex, temperature controlled warm rise, as i plan to be on the move a fair bit with my dough keeping me company and it might be difficult keeping the dough at consistent temperatures? Now i am not too sure and a rethink may be in order? Could you explain a little why you use a warm rise or why you think this is a advantageous to the NP dough.

I use a warm (~64F) rise because I believe it develops better flavor and texture. Iíve tried my same dough with a cold ferment, and I can say that there is nothing I like better about it, and just about everything is meaningfully worse. The only thing I think a refrigerator is good for is to extend out the timing. Say you need to make dough for four days from now and you canít make it any closer to the time you need it. Something like that.

Itís one thing to use bakerís yeast in an extended cold ferment Ė using cultures can be another thing entirely. The strains used in bakerís yeast are selected to be tough, resilient, consistent, etc. in all sorts of baking conditions. Bakerís yeast is intended to deliver consistent strong lift performance.  Itís selected to take the abuse of being turned into ADY or IDY where it is dormant and then rehydrated later fully active and ready to go. In my experience, SD culture donít like that kind of abuse. They donít respond as well to big changes in environmental conditions.

Quote
If i am to try and get the hang of a cold rise method do i need to be aware of final dough temperature before going into the fridge?

I donít know. You should probably be consistent in whatever you do though.

Quote
When baked my crusts rise up like small mountains! Should i dock the pizza before baking to eliminate this? If so, do i just dock on the cornice? Any ideas why for this happens? I did read on a couple of reasons why this occurs and forgot to write it down, now i cant find the thread.

Can you post some pictures? Most folks around here want a big puffy cornicione. I donít think I understand what you are describing. I would not recommend docking. How about using less dough? Or stretch it thinner at the edge, or bring your sauce and toppings further out towards the edge?

Quote
I am using Allison's flour currently. i don't deserve to use Caputo or of the like until i am worthy. Would my flour type have a big effect on my final product. I am guessing that it would not be a problem for yourself and many others on this forum!

Yes, the choice of flour can make a big difference. Flour has a lot of important properties beyond protein - and all protein is not the same either. Try some different flours Ė AP and bread and see how they compare. What sort of oven are you using. If itís a kitchen oven, Caputo is probably not the best choice for you.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline jazzflo

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Re: Dough Dr to the rescue....please
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2013, 09:23:37 AM »
i am so grateful for the time you have taken to be so thorough in your response, there is a lot to think about and work on! I have been away for a few days which has prevented me from responding earlier and making any pizzas. I will have some time over the next week to start some more experimenting so i will be sure to post some pics of my efforts.

In your response to my comment about the 'puff up crust and docking the cornicione'. You were unsure of what i was trying to describe? I was trying to highlight that the edge of the pizza was puffing up way to much, it seemed disproportionately big to the rest of the pizza?

When you talk about different forms of yeast - are you referring to bakers yeast as fresh yeast? i am using about 1/8 teaspoon of fast Action Yeast in 3- 5 of my pizza dough. in your response you mention that bakers yeast is selected to take the abuse of being turned into ADY or IDY . Are you saying that when using fresh yeast or fast action yeast and hydrating it in my pizza dough, it is able to continue working once being taken from the fridge and and warmed up to give a strong lift performance. Sorry but this is a little confusing for me?

JD asked if i was taking my 100% starter into consideration when calculating my overall hydration, stating that if i was working at 65% hydration this may be 68%. if i was using 65% water, 9% starter to 100% flour eg 45.9 g starter, 331 g water to 510 flour,  how would i work out how the hydration of my starter affects the overall hydration

Thank you again!