Author Topic: % hydration in commercial pizza shops  (Read 1514 times)

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Offline sonny.eymann

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% hydration in commercial pizza shops
« on: August 04, 2013, 08:37:48 PM »
I started at 62% hydration. The dough is very sticky and difficult to handle
also I did a test. 300 grams of flour in the oven for 1 hour it weighed 293 grams losses 2% water

At 58% much easier to handle
at 55 % better to handle but much more difficult to get good flavor
What are hydration level in pizza shops that hand form pizza?


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: % hydration in commercial pizza shops
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 09:45:03 PM »
It's not as simple as that. Flour has all sorts of rheological properties that very from product to product and affect how it will handle and perform. Flour A at 60% may feel similar to flour B at 65%. Likewise, you might have two flours that make dough of a similar stickiness at some given hydration % but one almost opens all on its own while you have to fight the other to get it open, etc.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: % hydration in commercial pizza shops
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2013, 11:09:00 AM »
The hard wheat flour that  I get in Panama feels too sticky at 62 percent hydration. feels much better at 56 to 58. I can make the 62% level work ok at a long mixing time. near 15 minutes in a kitchen aid speed 2.
No matter what I mix I hand stir to bring the dough together about 30 seconds. I let sit for about 10 minutes then mix. I add the oil at this time of start of the KA mix.
this is the mix I am using
Flour 100%
Water 62%   or 58   or  56%
salt    1.75%
sugar  1.75%
oil       1.75%
What indicators will tell me that I am mixing at at too low of hydration? both at the mix stage and at the opening stage?
Thanks

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: % hydration in commercial pizza shops
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2013, 12:11:34 PM »
As valuable as weights, numbers , scales and formulas may be, in the end the best tools you own are your hands and eyes, they will tell you when a dough is right. Don't try to fit everything into exact measurements, flours vary, adjust accordingly.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: % hydration in commercial pizza shops
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2013, 01:37:17 PM »
Sonny,

In the U.S., for the type of dough you are trying to make, the range of hydration values can be from about 50% to about 65%. Perhaps more typical is a hydration value in the middle of the above range. The actual hydration value will depend on the type of flour used and whether there are any other ingredients, like oil, that will also have a wetting effect on the dough. The quality of the flour and, more specifically, its ability to retain water, will also be a major factor in the hydration value to use.

The way that Tom Lehmann often instructs users in how to determine how much water to use is to start out with a specific amount of flour and gradually add water until the dough becomes sticky. Once you see that the dough has become sticky, you note the amount of water that produced that stickiness and calculate the hydration value. Going forward, you would then back off that hydration value by about a couple percent. If you are using oil in the dough also, you might also subtract the percent of oil from the final hydration value.

If it turns out that your final hydration value is considerably below the rated absorption value for the flour being tested, then that might be taken as an indication of a problem with the flour, such as excessive starch damage, or possibly some other defect in the flour.

Peter

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: % hydration in commercial pizza shops
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2013, 04:21:33 PM »
Peter
I think that was good advice.
I have my Panama flour and I have some Pillsbury bread flour. and i have some bromide bread flour with a sams club label on it. no there is not a sams club in panama.
I started at 55% mixed 5 minutes than add 2 % water and mixed another 2 minutes after each water addition.

panama flour good feel at 55%  good feel at 57%  a little sticky at 59% sticky at 61% very sticky at 63%. the bromide bred flour very similar.
Pillsbury flour feels to stiff at 55%, feels better at 57%, feels good at 59 and 61 but getting a little sticky at 63% and sticky at 65%

Tomorrow i will make Pizza from dough I mixed today.  mixed at 57% for the panama flour and 61% for the pillsbury bread flour

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: % hydration in commercial pizza shops
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2013, 12:20:39 AM »
I had watched Alton Brown show on Pizza. He mix his dough in a KA on medium speed for 15 minutes. That is far longer and more speed  than I have ever used before. I started with ice cold water I hand stirred to combine set in the refrigerator for 15 min then mixed for 15 minutes.  both doughs were beautiful. both easily past a window pane test. 

my dough tears in the past I knew it was under mixed but I thought that was ok when cold fermenting

Today formed by hand it was very easy.
i lost track of the two flours when cooking and forming but I could not tell the difference

Online Pete-zza

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Re: % hydration in commercial pizza shops
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2013, 09:10:16 AM »
Sonny,

There is no need to mix and knead the dough such that it can pass the windowpane test. This is a matter that has been discussed many times before on the forum. See, for example, Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4616.msg38959/topicseen.html#msg38959, Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5319.html#msg5319, and Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12291.msg116476/topicseen.html#msg116476.

Peter

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: % hydration in commercial pizza shops
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2013, 01:40:55 PM »
Tom did do the test you talked about on a you tube video.
What harm can the mixing do as alton described? The dough worked very well but I understand I may be on the edge?
I much preferred what I ended up with as compared to what I have been mixing.
I will mix today and apply tom's test

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: % hydration in commercial pizza shops
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2013, 11:33:46 AM »
I mixed dough to pass the test that Tom advocates.  I have mixed more dough as Alton suggests, 15 minutes at medium speed in a KA mixer.
The overwork dough is very easy to ball and open into a skin but I have cooked 3 times that way and the center of the pizza crust in not as good as the under worked dough.
I think that toms test is very good at determining where you are in the mixing cycle because I know by the difficulty I have had the past forming ball just after mixing. I was under mixing but I have a new way, for me, to deal with this situation.
Again, I am mixing one dough ball at a time for now. after under mixing I put into a ziplock bag with a little spray. and from into a kind of ball. After a day in the cooler I re ball and from beautiful balls and place in oiled plastic containers to be used later. The dough forms great and the crust tasted great.


Offline Hobbs

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Re: % hydration in commercial pizza shops
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2013, 02:22:40 PM »
Sonny,

I have noticed in my trials and tribulations in dough mixing up to this point in my, still very green, endeavors...

That re-balling has had the single most dramatic effect on the end results of my dough...and that is whether it's an undermixed or overmixed (within reason) dough.

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: % hydration in commercial pizza shops
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2013, 06:35:05 PM »
A interesting way to make pizza.
I just tried under mixing to an extreme and make one of the best tasting crust to date.

The recipe
100 %   12 oz panama hard flour
80 %       9.6 oz water   tap water
1.75% salt
!.75 % sugar
1/2 tsp IDY but slightly less

Mixed in large glass bowl about 6am, water, sugar, salt and IDY until dissolved less then minute with a spoon
I added the flour mixed maybe a minute covered let sit on the counter for 5 hours then took a wet spatula de gassed and folded for a minute. I repeated this every 2 hours until 10 at night.  I place in the cooler for the night. the gluten development was very good at that point  but the next morning. wow!
At 10 AM  I oiled a 16 dark pan and dumped the dough into the pan and spent 30 seconds forming with my fingertips.  I left on the counter till about noon. It was near formed on its own but in less then a minute I finished forming and de gassing with my fingertips.

The dough very evenly spread but was very soft. I loaded like a deep dish Pizza.  cheese meats and sauce on top.

I put the pan on the deck for 15 minutes with the pan coved. (my $1000 counter top deck oven also heats from the top and will finish the top in 8 to 10 minutes minutes so the bottom need to be direct on the stone to finish at the same time and the oven needs to be at 550. I get a well cook deck pizza but any delay in finishing the bottom like in a pan I have to cover the top}

I cooked at 500, 15 minutes covered and 10 minutes uncovered. crust was 1/4 thick yes fried on the bottom yet very tender inside and well cooked and very easy with no flour mess or taste. no real mixing. mostly time.

Very interesting and very good.
My girlfriend thought the best taste to date and the least mess to date. She love it!  :o jejeje
No mixer and no dough press needed and no real forming.


 

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