Author Topic: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results  (Read 20041 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SF_Pizzero

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
  • Location: SF Bay Area
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2013, 09:16:16 PM »
Here's my attempt to help get the stat ball rolling.

Craig, though I have not used IDY or CY, based on my relatively limited experience with ADY, the fermentation times shown in the model (at least at the yeast quantities and temperatures I've used) look to be on the low side.   

For instance, I've used Jim Lahey's no-knead approach in the past with good results:  70% hydration, 3.2% salt, 0.2% ADY, 18 hour ferment at about 72 F.   My ready-to-bake times are consistent with those numbers.  Flour use has been a number of combinations of AP and high-gluten with no visible difference in state of readiness (I've done them side by side). 

More recently, using Caputo flour, 64% hydration, 2.9% salt, and 0.13% ADY, I've reached ready-to-bake after about 24 hours at 65 F (though I often need to bring it up into the mid-70s for the last couple of hours).

Based on the above examples, my fermentation times with ADY are quite a bit longer than those predicted by the model.  Though I appreciate this is my first substantive post (and there may be concerns regarding my credibility), I have lurked for a while and my ready-to-bake determinations are similar to Craig's based on his postings of the appearance of the dough balls through the bottom of the dough containers.   I'll try to post some pictures of the results of the above-mentioned bakes within the next few days.

For what it's worth regarding the debate on the particulars, the tap water I use here in the Bay Area (from Hetch Hetchy in Yosemite) is in my estimation, on the lower end of the spectrum for chlorine and other additives. 

Stefan





Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13222
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2013, 10:14:56 PM »
Thank you for the post. Let's keep the data points coming and see how it plays out. I'm certainly not saying the chart as it stands is correct. I need all the data points I can get - those that disagree with the chart and those that agree are both important.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline JimmyG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 477
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2013, 12:59:40 AM »
Biga from scratch:
100% AP
55% Water (initial water temp 74F)
0.25% IDY
Dough Temp after mixing: 76.2F
Room Temp 78F
Doubling time: 2.68 hours

Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought.

Offline RobynB

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 655
  • Location: Scotts Valley, CA
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2013, 02:46:19 PM »
Craig, I answered you this in a message back in January, don't know if you want me to answer again, but here:

SAF Instant Dry Yeast, red bag not gold.  I use ~1/8th tsp, +/- depending on fermentation temp, for a batch which is based on 1000g 00 flour, usually 59-62 HD.  I do a short mix/knead (about 3 minutes at lowest speed in Bosch Compact Mixer) then roughly ball and let sit covered for an hour, then I ball into a tight smooth ball and bulk overnight, 8-12 hours depending on room temp, which is usually 60-70F.  Obviously, if it's closer to 60, I bulk longer, and if it's warmer, shorter.  Then I ball and into trays.  If it's warm (over 70) I usually stash them in the fridge for part of the balled time - if it's very warm out I leave them in longer to prevent over-proofing.  I probably work with cooler / less developed dough balls than a lot of people do, from what I've seen.  From the time I start mixing until I use the balls is probably ~20 hours.

Sorry, I'm not super scientific, I do a lot by look/feel of dough. 

Offline communist

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 483
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2013, 09:17:25 AM »
Craig, my data so far.  1000 grams Caputo mixed with filtered water, 62%.  0.2 grams of IDY for 0.02%. ( Although I weighed the yeast, it was a 2/3 filled 1/8 teaspoon of yeast, or 1/12 of a teaspoon ).   Bulk ferment at 67 degrees for 24 hours.  Balled and put back at 67 degrees (basement floor temp that varies by a degree or two in either direction.  In next post will be pics from this AM, 34 hours fermentation.  I am at work now and hoping to bake at 6PM.  Hope my balls aren't overblown.  Mark

Offline communist

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 483
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2013, 09:22:35 AM »
Not ready yet

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13222
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2013, 09:30:25 AM »
Craig, my data so far.  1000 grams Caputo mixed with filtered water, 62%.  0.2 grams of IDY for 0.02%. ( Although I weighed the yeast, it was a 2/3 filled 1/8 teaspoon of yeast, or 1/12 of a teaspoon ).   Bulk ferment at 67 degrees for 24 hours.  Balled and put back at 67 degrees (basement floor temp that varies by a degree or two in either direction.  In next post will be pics from this AM, 34 hours fermentation.  I am at work now and hoping to bake at 6PM.  Hope my balls aren't overblown.  Mark

If the model is right, they would need about 39 hours total. If those pics are at 34 hours, I'm guessing 39 total might not be far off.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline communist

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 483
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2013, 07:26:20 PM »
Dough at 12 noon today.  Ready to bake.  Decided to have son at home refrigerate dough to retard.  Great bake tonight.  Craig, your table is spot on!  Mark

Offline communist

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 483
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2013, 08:17:43 PM »
In looking at the 39 hour ferment dough, it looks ready to be baked right then, but I guess it could go another hour or two, easily.  Related to this, can we theorize that cold ferments may be much less useful than most of us believe.  Instead of dropping temperature, can we drop yeast % instead?  This has commercial relevance with refrigeration issues.  I will try this on my NY dough and report results.    Mark

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13222
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2013, 10:05:05 PM »
can we theorize that cold ferments may be much less useful than most of us believe. 

That's a fact not a theory.  ;)

Even 72 hours is not a problem for fermenting in the mid 60's - particularly at larger scales where it is simpler to measure a small % of yeast.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline deb415611

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1116
  • Location: CT
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2013, 08:13:05 PM »
shooting for 11 hours, room temp is generally 77 degrees though morning was slightly cooler.   10 hours on chart was .032 and 12 hours was .04 so I used .036% IDY.    GM neapolitan flour ,  61%, 2.5 % salt


mixed at 7:10 room temp 75
bulk until 10:15 then balled , room temp still 75
room temp at 12:40 77 degrees and was steady through bake time
pic 1 at 2:30
pic 2 at 4:20
pic 3 at 6:10 - 11 hours exactly  - first two pizzas were made
pic 4 at 6:37
pic 5 crumb of 1st pizza
pic 5 crumb of last pizza

hope this helps,  I have used it a few other times but haven't kept track of actual room temp and it has been in ball park.  I'll try to keep track of a few future ones also, I want to do a 2 and 3 day to see the difference.    I have used the sourdough chart a few times as well with good results.  Thank you Craig!




« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 08:23:28 PM by deb415611 »

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13222
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2013, 10:07:14 AM »
shooting for 11 hours, room temp is generally 77 degrees though morning was slightly cooler.   10 hours on chart was .032 and 12 hours was .04 so I used .036% IDY.    GM neapolitan flour ,  61%, 2.5 % salt


mixed at 7:10 room temp 75
bulk until 10:15 then balled , room temp still 75
room temp at 12:40 77 degrees and was steady through bake time
pic 1 at 2:30
pic 2 at 4:20
pic 3 at 6:10 - 11 hours exactly  - first two pizzas were made
pic 4 at 6:37
pic 5 crumb of 1st pizza
pic 5 crumb of last pizza

hope this helps,  I have used it a few other times but haven't kept track of actual room temp and it has been in ball park.  I'll try to keep track of a few future ones also, I want to do a 2 and 3 day to see the difference.    I have used the sourdough chart a few times as well with good results.  Thank you Craig!

Deb, thank you for the detail info!
Pizza is not bread.

Offline communist

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 483
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2013, 12:45:51 PM »
Deb, your pizza looks good.  Your dough is really developed at the end,
more than mine usually is.  Right now I have a 0.02% dough at 40 hours at 67 degrees.  I am going to push it longer and see what happens.    Mark

Offline communist

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 483
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2013, 04:49:17 PM »
44 hours

Offline deb415611

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1116
  • Location: CT
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2013, 05:01:04 PM »
Deb, thank you for the detail info!

you are welcome, thanks for the chart.   One important detail I left out was that the water I used was room temp

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13222
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2013, 11:13:45 AM »
The data so far suggests that the chart is reasonably reliable, at least between 60 and 80F. 

If anybody has a workflow that is not in line with the chart's predictions, please post it.

Thanks,

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline juniorballoon

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 304
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Duvall WA
    • Sirfoodalot
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2013, 04:05:20 PM »
That's a fact not a theory.  ;)

Even 72 hours is not a problem for fermenting in the mid 60's - particularly at larger scales where it is simpler to measure a small % of yeast.

Fascinating project Craig. If I get a chance I'll try to send you some data. I don't usually take all the temps that you need, but that doesn't mean I can't. Cold Fermentation is less useful? Are you being tongue in cheek with that comment or is there really a debate on that? Is there a thread?

Thanks,
jb

Offline juniorballoon

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 304
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Duvall WA
    • Sirfoodalot
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2013, 04:07:41 PM »
In my Cold Fermentation process the dough starts out at 77ish (room temp while mixing and balling) then goes to 39ish and then gets about 4 hours at room temp before baking. Does or can the chart take such variance into account?

Thanks,
jb

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13222
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2013, 04:57:51 PM »
Cold Fermentation is less useful? Are you being tongue in cheek with that comment or is there really a debate on that?

It's no secret that I'm not a fan of cold fermentation. I think it results in sub-optimal dough.

With respect to this table specifically, I think it's pretty good between 60 and 80F, but at refrigerator temps, I think it is predicting a bit long. I'm working on it.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13222
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2013, 05:00:49 PM »
In my Cold Fermentation process the dough starts out at 77ish (room temp while mixing and balling) then goes to 39ish and then gets about 4 hours at room temp before baking. Does or can the chart take such variance into account?

Thanks,
jb

Yes, it inherently does take some measure of that into account, but There is no way to adjust for the changes specifically. The goal of the table it to be able to find a starting point that will be reasonably close to where you want to be. You will still have to experiment, but hopefully this will significantly cut down the experimentation required.
Pizza is not bread.