Author Topic: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results  (Read 12866 times)

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Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2013, 05:03:37 PM »
It's no secret that I'm not a fan of cold fermentation. I think it results in sub-optimal dough.

With respect to this table specifically, I think it's pretty good between 60 and 80F, but at refrigerator temps, I think it is predicting a bit long. I'm working on it.

Is that suboptimal in general or for NP pies specifically? Think I'll go search for CF on the garage thread.

Thanks,
B



Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2013, 05:25:56 PM »
Is that suboptimal in general or for NP pies specifically? Think I'll go search for CF on the garage thread.

Yes, I can't really speak to other styles though I bet it applies to them as well. You won't find much on CF in the garage thread other than perhaps me saying I don't like it. I don't think any CF dough has ever passed through the door of my WFO other than a couple that someone else made.

I've experimented at length with CF dough in my home oven and when I was using my BBQ mod, and my best IDY/ADY pies have all been at room temp (>60F). And with SD, forget about it.
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Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2013, 05:37:05 PM »
Yes, I can't really speak to other styles though I bet it applies to them as well. You won't find much on CF in the garage thread other than perhaps me saying I don't like it. I don't think any CF dough has ever passed through the door of my WFO other than a couple that someone else made.

I've experimented at length with CF dough in my home oven and when I was using my BBQ mod, and my best IDY/ADY pies have all been at room temp (>60F). And with SD, forget about it.


There's some good info in the Entire Garage Process thread, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.0.html . I just read the post about the different acids that are created at different temps. I see more experimenting in my future.

Thanks,
jb

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2013, 11:10:27 PM »
Awesome stuff. I'm really looking forward to trying this if I grab some fresh yeast.

Offline henkverhaar

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2013, 02:36:57 AM »
Jim, ex is the exponential function (natural log would be the inverse - log base e or ln). I don't know that it represents anything particular - rather the whole function including that term appears to be a good generalized model for microbial growth.

It represents exponential growth, which is an approximation of microbial growth in a number of ways, but primarily in the sense that it assumes unlimited resources. It represents in fact only the first part (half) of a logistic growth curve, which is a good representation of growth under constrained (limited resources) conditions - which is what most real life situations are: at a certain point in time, food runs out, or the capacity of generating food does no longer keep up with growth (which would immediately be an example of real life being more complicated than even a simple logistic model).

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2013, 03:15:01 AM »
This isn't a growth model. It's a rate model. Resources are not a constraint. There are ample resources by definition. It's not time dependent; it's temperature dependent.
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Offline communist

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2013, 10:49:37 AM »
0.10% IDY 68 degrees. 63 % hydration.  Photo is at 9 hours.  Not quite ready for baking - table predicted 7 hours.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2013, 11:23:20 AM »
0.10% IDY 68 degrees. 63 % hydration.  Photo is at 9 hours.  Not quite ready for baking - table predicted 7 hours.

That's interesting. In the revised model I'm working on, that particular data point didn't change. It's still 7 hours. If anything I would have guessed it to be wrong in the other direction.
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Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2013, 10:59:19 AM »
I tried to make a room temp dough yesterday. Based on the chart 72 hours at 68 degrees would use 0.013% ADY. I plug it into my spreadsheet and it comes up with 0.06825 g for 525 g of flour. I mix my dough and make up 3 balls and place them in Tupperware with lids. By morning the lids have busted off and the dough has more than doubled. I recheck the numbers and realize my mistake. I read it as needing almost 7 tenths of a gram, 7 times what the chart calls for. I'm sure the chart is correct and I'm just posting this to double check, but I'm pretty sure I should have used slightly less than 1 tenth of a gram? That just seems like an impossibly small amount. In addition the smallest amount my scale will do is 1 tenth of a gram. I suppose I could approximate such a small amount...or just make more dough. :)

Thanks,
jb


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2013, 05:15:47 PM »
You read the chart right, 72h at 68F = 0.013% ADY.

I also agree that 0.06825g ADY for 525g flour is correct to hit 0.013%. 7 tenths of a gram (0.7) would be 10X more than called for not 7X.

Yes a little less than a 10th of a gram -  7 hundredths of a gram for your formula. One way to do this is dissolve 1.0g yeast in 99.0g water and use 7ml or 7g of the resulting solution. I'd probably use 8ml or 8g just to give a little room for error. I'd rather err or the high side with quantities this small.
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Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2013, 06:38:12 PM »
Good to know, Next time I'll get it right. Funny thing is my wife heard the lids popping off in the middle of the night and thought someone was breaking in. :)

Thanks,
jb

Offline JConk007

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2013, 11:44:44 PM »
.11 IDY 60%  last Night  temps  low 60's 7 hours not dough was quite there
Last week  .14 with low 70s was right on your table data. Tonights dough for saturday did .12 and temps  63-65 will be about 12 hour bulk  time I get to ball it. I will provide pics in am.
From What I am seeing the data you have  is quite close to actual "ready times"
I do extend in the fridge after this initialferment based on  space, room  temps, and what I have going on gfor the weekend. 
This is  a  great guide/tool !! will try cake yeast also and post results
thanks craig!
John
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 11:47:03 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline henkverhaar

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2013, 04:30:04 AM »
This isn't a growth model. It's a rate model. Resources are not a constraint. There are ample resources by definition. It's not time dependent; it's temperature dependent.

Your model is a rate model because you use the temperature as your independent variable, but it's still governed by the same underlying process. I was merely trying to say that 'exponential' growth is a 'special case' of logistic growth, valid under conditions were there are no resource constraints yet. In the sense that the exponential part of your model does in fact represent something more than just being a convenient function that happens to fit the data...
;-)

Offline communist

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2013, 10:14:16 AM »
.11 IDY 60%  last Night  temps  low 60's 7 hours not dough was quite there
That was similar to my findings.  This is a tremendous idea Craig.  I will continue to generate some data.   Mark

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2013, 10:46:46 AM »
Your model is a rate model because you use the temperature as your independent variable, but it's still governed by the same underlying process. I was merely trying to say that 'exponential' growth is a 'special case' of logistic growth, valid under conditions were there are no resource constraints yet. In the sense that the exponential part of your model does in fact represent something more than just being a convenient function that happens to fit the data...
;-)


Yes, exponential growth is an underlying assumption – no doubt about that – but not as you stated in your comments with respect to the specific functioning of the model. Perhaps some of the confusion is that I was not particularly clear in my original response to you that I was only talking about the specific part of the model Jim asked about – not the model as a whole.

You mischaracterized how the model functions when you responded to my comment about a specific ex term writing “It represents exponential growth…” and you mischaracterized it again here when you stated that this specific term as used represents more than a convenient function to fit the data. It does not.

The part of the model you commented on simply describes the effect of temperature on a relative growth rate. It’s time independent, in fact, the dependant variable is dimensionless.  The function in question does not represent exponential growth (which always has time as an independent variable and a dependent variable with a dimension that represents a quantity of some sort such as number of cells or cell mass).

I think you are confusing the exponential function with exponential growth. The particular term in question is simply part of a larger function that describes how yeast growth rate varies with temperature, the result of which is used in the larger model which incorporates an exponential growth assumption.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 10:50:23 AM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline communist

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2013, 07:25:59 AM »
IDY 0.073%. 63% hydration 12 hours.  I think these are just beginning to be ready - baking 14 pies for marching band at noon.    Mark

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2013, 08:29:45 AM »
Thanks Mark.
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Offline communist

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2013, 08:44:25 AM »
Thanks Mark.
you are welcome Craig - thank you for your efforts.   Dough at 14 hrs :

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2013, 10:34:16 AM »
you are welcome Craig - thank you for your efforts.   Dough at 14 hrs :

Would you say that dough was ready at 12-13 hours?
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Offline communist

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2013, 04:24:07 PM »
Would you say that dough was ready at 12-13 hours?
yes Craig,  I would say that 12 to 13 hours was the beginning of when the dough was ready, but at 14 hours it was excellent, as the pic indicated.  And it still was in the "good window" for another hour or two.  I think there is a 3 or 4 hour window - none of my pics show dough as "ripe" as others have posted.  Cranked out 14 pies at marching band tailgate party - all pies were gone in seconds after being pulled from oven


 

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