Author Topic: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results  (Read 38108 times)

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Offline communist

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2013, 09:22:35 AM »
Not ready yet


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2013, 09:30:25 AM »
Craig, my data so far.  1000 grams Caputo mixed with filtered water, 62%.  0.2 grams of IDY for 0.02%. ( Although I weighed the yeast, it was a 2/3 filled 1/8 teaspoon of yeast, or 1/12 of a teaspoon ).   Bulk ferment at 67 degrees for 24 hours.  Balled and put back at 67 degrees (basement floor temp that varies by a degree or two in either direction.  In next post will be pics from this AM, 34 hours fermentation.  I am at work now and hoping to bake at 6PM.  Hope my balls aren't overblown.  Mark

If the model is right, they would need about 39 hours total. If those pics are at 34 hours, I'm guessing 39 total might not be far off.
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Offline communist

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2013, 07:26:20 PM »
Dough at 12 noon today.  Ready to bake.  Decided to have son at home refrigerate dough to retard.  Great bake tonight.  Craig, your table is spot on!  Mark

Offline communist

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2013, 08:17:43 PM »
In looking at the 39 hour ferment dough, it looks ready to be baked right then, but I guess it could go another hour or two, easily.  Related to this, can we theorize that cold ferments may be much less useful than most of us believe.  Instead of dropping temperature, can we drop yeast % instead?  This has commercial relevance with refrigeration issues.  I will try this on my NY dough and report results.    Mark

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2013, 10:05:05 PM »
can we theorize that cold ferments may be much less useful than most of us believe. 

That's a fact not a theory.  ;)

Even 72 hours is not a problem for fermenting in the mid 60's - particularly at larger scales where it is simpler to measure a small % of yeast.
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Offline deb415611

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2013, 08:13:05 PM »
shooting for 11 hours, room temp is generally 77 degrees though morning was slightly cooler.   10 hours on chart was .032 and 12 hours was .04 so I used .036% IDY.    GM neapolitan flour ,  61%, 2.5 % salt


mixed at 7:10 room temp 75
bulk until 10:15 then balled , room temp still 75
room temp at 12:40 77 degrees and was steady through bake time
pic 1 at 2:30
pic 2 at 4:20
pic 3 at 6:10 - 11 hours exactly  - first two pizzas were made
pic 4 at 6:37
pic 5 crumb of 1st pizza
pic 5 crumb of last pizza

hope this helps,  I have used it a few other times but haven't kept track of actual room temp and it has been in ball park.  I'll try to keep track of a few future ones also, I want to do a 2 and 3 day to see the difference.    I have used the sourdough chart a few times as well with good results.  Thank you Craig!




« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 08:23:28 PM by deb415611 »
Deb

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2013, 10:07:14 AM »
shooting for 11 hours, room temp is generally 77 degrees though morning was slightly cooler.   10 hours on chart was .032 and 12 hours was .04 so I used .036% IDY.    GM neapolitan flour ,  61%, 2.5 % salt


mixed at 7:10 room temp 75
bulk until 10:15 then balled , room temp still 75
room temp at 12:40 77 degrees and was steady through bake time
pic 1 at 2:30
pic 2 at 4:20
pic 3 at 6:10 - 11 hours exactly  - first two pizzas were made
pic 4 at 6:37
pic 5 crumb of 1st pizza
pic 5 crumb of last pizza

hope this helps,  I have used it a few other times but haven't kept track of actual room temp and it has been in ball park.  I'll try to keep track of a few future ones also, I want to do a 2 and 3 day to see the difference.    I have used the sourdough chart a few times as well with good results.  Thank you Craig!

Deb, thank you for the detail info!
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline communist

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2013, 12:45:51 PM »
Deb, your pizza looks good.  Your dough is really developed at the end,
more than mine usually is.  Right now I have a 0.02% dough at 40 hours at 67 degrees.  I am going to push it longer and see what happens.    Mark

Offline communist

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2013, 04:49:17 PM »
44 hours


Offline deb415611

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2013, 05:01:04 PM »
Deb, thank you for the detail info!

you are welcome, thanks for the chart.   One important detail I left out was that the water I used was room temp
Deb

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2013, 11:13:45 AM »
The data so far suggests that the chart is reasonably reliable, at least between 60 and 80F. 

If anybody has a workflow that is not in line with the chart's predictions, please post it.

Thanks,

Craig
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2013, 04:05:20 PM »
That's a fact not a theory.  ;)

Even 72 hours is not a problem for fermenting in the mid 60's - particularly at larger scales where it is simpler to measure a small % of yeast.

Fascinating project Craig. If I get a chance I'll try to send you some data. I don't usually take all the temps that you need, but that doesn't mean I can't. Cold Fermentation is less useful? Are you being tongue in cheek with that comment or is there really a debate on that? Is there a thread?

Thanks,
jb

Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2013, 04:07:41 PM »
In my Cold Fermentation process the dough starts out at 77ish (room temp while mixing and balling) then goes to 39ish and then gets about 4 hours at room temp before baking. Does or can the chart take such variance into account?

Thanks,
jb

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2013, 04:57:51 PM »
Cold Fermentation is less useful? Are you being tongue in cheek with that comment or is there really a debate on that?

It's no secret that I'm not a fan of cold fermentation. I think it results in sub-optimal dough.

With respect to this table specifically, I think it's pretty good between 60 and 80F, but at refrigerator temps, I think it is predicting a bit long. I'm working on it.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2013, 05:00:49 PM »
In my Cold Fermentation process the dough starts out at 77ish (room temp while mixing and balling) then goes to 39ish and then gets about 4 hours at room temp before baking. Does or can the chart take such variance into account?

Thanks,
jb

Yes, it inherently does take some measure of that into account, but There is no way to adjust for the changes specifically. The goal of the table it to be able to find a starting point that will be reasonably close to where you want to be. You will still have to experiment, but hopefully this will significantly cut down the experimentation required.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2013, 05:03:37 PM »
It's no secret that I'm not a fan of cold fermentation. I think it results in sub-optimal dough.

With respect to this table specifically, I think it's pretty good between 60 and 80F, but at refrigerator temps, I think it is predicting a bit long. I'm working on it.

Is that suboptimal in general or for NP pies specifically? Think I'll go search for CF on the garage thread.

Thanks,
B


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2013, 05:25:56 PM »
Is that suboptimal in general or for NP pies specifically? Think I'll go search for CF on the garage thread.

Yes, I can't really speak to other styles though I bet it applies to them as well. You won't find much on CF in the garage thread other than perhaps me saying I don't like it. I don't think any CF dough has ever passed through the door of my WFO other than a couple that someone else made.

I've experimented at length with CF dough in my home oven and when I was using my BBQ mod, and my best IDY/ADY pies have all been at room temp (>60F). And with SD, forget about it.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2013, 05:37:05 PM »
Yes, I can't really speak to other styles though I bet it applies to them as well. You won't find much on CF in the garage thread other than perhaps me saying I don't like it. I don't think any CF dough has ever passed through the door of my WFO other than a couple that someone else made.

I've experimented at length with CF dough in my home oven and when I was using my BBQ mod, and my best IDY/ADY pies have all been at room temp (>60F). And with SD, forget about it.

There's some good info in the Entire Garage Process thread, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.0.html . I just read the post about the different acids that are created at different temps. I see more experimenting in my future.

Thanks,
jb

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2013, 11:10:27 PM »
Awesome stuff. I'm really looking forward to trying this if I grab some fresh yeast.

Offline henkverhaar

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2013, 02:36:57 AM »
Jim, ex is the exponential function (natural log would be the inverse - log base e or ln). I don't know that it represents anything particular - rather the whole function including that term appears to be a good generalized model for microbial growth.

It represents exponential growth, which is an approximation of microbial growth in a number of ways, but primarily in the sense that it assumes unlimited resources. It represents in fact only the first part (half) of a logistic growth curve, which is a good representation of growth under constrained (limited resources) conditions - which is what most real life situations are: at a certain point in time, food runs out, or the capacity of generating food does no longer keep up with growth (which would immediately be an example of real life being more complicated than even a simple logistic model).

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2013, 03:15:01 AM »
This isn't a growth model. It's a rate model. Resources are not a constraint. There are ample resources by definition. It's not time dependent; it's temperature dependent.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline communist

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2013, 10:49:37 AM »
0.10% IDY 68 degrees. 63 % hydration.  Photo is at 9 hours.  Not quite ready for baking - table predicted 7 hours.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2013, 11:23:20 AM »
0.10% IDY 68 degrees. 63 % hydration.  Photo is at 9 hours.  Not quite ready for baking - table predicted 7 hours.

That's interesting. In the revised model I'm working on, that particular data point didn't change. It's still 7 hours. If anything I would have guessed it to be wrong in the other direction.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline juniorballoon

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2013, 10:59:19 AM »
I tried to make a room temp dough yesterday. Based on the chart 72 hours at 68 degrees would use 0.013% ADY. I plug it into my spreadsheet and it comes up with 0.06825 g for 525 g of flour. I mix my dough and make up 3 balls and place them in Tupperware with lids. By morning the lids have busted off and the dough has more than doubled. I recheck the numbers and realize my mistake. I read it as needing almost 7 tenths of a gram, 7 times what the chart calls for. I'm sure the chart is correct and I'm just posting this to double check, but I'm pretty sure I should have used slightly less than 1 tenth of a gram? That just seems like an impossibly small amount. In addition the smallest amount my scale will do is 1 tenth of a gram. I suppose I could approximate such a small amount...or just make more dough. :)

Thanks,
jb


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2013, 05:15:47 PM »
You read the chart right, 72h at 68F = 0.013% ADY.

I also agree that 0.06825g ADY for 525g flour is correct to hit 0.013%. 7 tenths of a gram (0.7) would be 10X more than called for not 7X.

Yes a little less than a 10th of a gram -  7 hundredths of a gram for your formula. One way to do this is dissolve 1.0g yeast in 99.0g water and use 7ml or 7g of the resulting solution. I'd probably use 8ml or 8g just to give a little room for error. I'd rather err or the high side with quantities this small.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage


 

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