Author Topic: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!  (Read 9242 times)

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Offline wahoo88

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2013, 09:04:24 AM »
Jcovey, did you mean 0.3% IDY?


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2013, 09:40:22 AM »
Jcovey, first off nice leoparding.  I love the look.  Do you remember what time and temp of the bake was?

I don't remember the specifics of the Verasano technique as it has been years since I've looked at it, so would you detail exactly what you did.  It's easier to help if I have all the information.

1) It was difficult to stretch this wet of dough without making the center extremely thin. Any tips?

Thinness in some spots could be caused by a couple of factors.  One would be balling technique or balling late in the stages of fermentation, or doing a reball too close to bake time.  The other major factor is gluten over development (IE over mixing + reballs).  Basically what is going on is that the gluten strength is too strong and the doughballs were probably reballed or balled late.  This causes an uneven gluten matrix.  When you go to stretch it out, you have weak and strong spots which appear as the disk getts bigger.  The further out you go, the thinner spots start to break.

2) Am I looking for a more chewy crust or more airy? Mine was definitely on the more chewy side. It was very good, but just wondering what the standard is. Maybe I overworked it while stretching it out. There seemed to be so little IDY, is 0.03% a reasonable amount?

I beat your crust was chewy alright.  And you didn't overwork the it while stretching, but rather overworked it during the mix and/or reballs.    I love the look of big leopard spotted crusts like yours, but I've always only been able to get them with a dough using IDY, when I've overdeveloped the gluten strength or from a dough that has been sitting in the fridge 4-5 days.  I've never been able to achieve a leoparded crust using IDY that was tender.   I've seen it with crusts made with starters (Sourdough) but not with IDY. 

From seeing that your crust is relatively thick, the nicely leoparded rim, and your description of it being hard to stretch without getting the middle too thin, I'm thinking the dough was probably overmixed or balled really late (or reballed).   

As far as the yeast goes, I agree with Wahoo.  You may have meant to use 0.3% I'm not sure.  0.3% can be used for a same day dough or you can refrigerate it 2-3 days out. 

Shriveling crust?  Hmmm, sounds bad.  Crust don't tend to shrivel after the bake.  They can deflate a bit if your bake time is really short.  Shriveling makes me think of the crust retracting, and it usually does that prior to loading not after the bake. 

Chau

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2013, 10:19:40 AM »
That is a really nice little pie J.  :chef:
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Offline jcovey713

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2013, 11:04:21 AM »
Jcovey, first off nice leoparding.  I love the look.  Do you remember what time and temp of the bake was?

I don't remember the specifics of the Verasano technique as it has been years since I've looked at it, so would you detail exactly what you did.  It's easier to help if I have all the information.

1) It was difficult to stretch this wet of dough without making the center extremely thin. Any tips?

Thinness in some spots could be caused by a couple of factors.  One would be balling technique or balling late in the stages of fermentation, or doing a reball too close to bake time.  The other major factor is gluten over development (IE over mixing + reballs).  Basically what is going on is that the gluten strength is too strong and the doughballs were probably reballed or balled late.  This causes an uneven gluten matrix.  When you go to stretch it out, you have weak and strong spots which appear as the disk getts bigger.  The further out you go, the thinner spots start to break.

2) Am I looking for a more chewy crust or more airy? Mine was definitely on the more chewy side. It was very good, but just wondering what the standard is. Maybe I overworked it while stretching it out. There seemed to be so little IDY, is 0.03% a reasonable amount?

I beat your crust was chewy alright.  And you didn't overwork the it while stretching, but rather overworked it during the mix and/or reballs.    I love the look of big leopard spotted crusts like yours, but I've always only been able to get them with a dough using IDY, when I've overdeveloped the gluten strength or from a dough that has been sitting in the fridge 4-5 days.  I've never been able to achieve a leoparded crust using IDY that was tender.   I've seen it with crusts made with starters (Sourdough) but not with IDY. 

From seeing that your crust is relatively thick, the nicely leoparded rim, and your description of it being hard to stretch without getting the middle too thin, I'm thinking the dough was probably overmixed or balled really late (or reballed).   

As far as the yeast goes, I agree with Wahoo.  You may have meant to use 0.3% I'm not sure.  0.3% can be used for a same day dough or you can refrigerate it 2-3 days out. 

Shriveling crust?  Hmmm, sounds bad.  Crust don't tend to shrivel after the bake.  They can deflate a bit if your bake time is really short.  Shriveling makes me think of the crust retracting, and it usually does that prior to loading not after the bake. 

Chau


Chau,

Thank you for your response. Your opinion means a lot after all I have read of yours.

I used the recipe shown here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219699.html#msg219699

But I don't have cake yeast, so I used the yeast conversion chart to get to IDY. If my math was right...that would make it 0.03% IDY.

I incorporated 75% of the flour, salt, IDY and water. I mixed in my KA for two minutes and then let rest for 20 mins. I then mixed on 1/4 speed for 5 mins and then slowly incorporated the remaining flour and mixed for another 5 mins total. I let it rest again for 20 mins. I split and balled the dough. I put in a sealed plastic container and put in the fridge for 22 hours. No reballing, but 10 mins may be be overworking the dough.

My bake was with a lower stone temp of about 850 deg. Time was about 75 seconds. Launching the pie on a rotating plate was easier than I expected. I just re positioned if needed after the pie setup a little.

Thank you for any advice on technique or recipe.

Offline jcovey713

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2013, 11:05:28 AM »
That is a really nice little pie J.  :chef:

Thanks CB!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2013, 11:22:31 AM »
Jcovey, it doesn't sound like excessive mixing as my own experimentation has taken me back around to something similar to Jeff's technique.  Can you clarify what you mean by 1/4 speed on your kitchen aid mixer?
The speeds on my old KA read 1 2 4 6 8 10.  Which speed did you use for the first 5min?  And for the last 5min of mixing?

Also was the remainder of the flour incorporated during the last 5min mixing for a total mix time of 10m? Or was it incorporated, then the dough was mixed another 5min?

I would up your IDY yeast anywhere from 0.1-0.4%.  The amount will dictate how soon you have to get it into the fridge and how soon you have to remove it before baking.

Chau
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 11:24:53 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline jcovey713

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2013, 11:27:21 AM »
Chau,

IIRC, I was on 2 for the first 5 minutes, then I started adding flour and bumped it up to 3. I mixed it for a total of 10 mins while slowly incorporating flour between mins 5-9.

Jason 

Offline wahoo88

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2013, 11:43:38 AM »
Jcovey, thanks for the clarification and the link to the recipe thread.  Maybe I've just been naive, but I've never seen anything near to 0.03% IDY.  I see that Chau recommends a higher yeast amount now, but I am still impressed at the minuscule IDY percentage used in that beautifully leoparded pie.

Offline jcovey713

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2013, 11:55:44 AM »
What IDY% are you guys using for NPs? I always thought it was lower than an American style... I have two more dough balls that I made last night, using the same recipe with a slightly shorter mixing time (1 min mix / 20 min rest / 10 min mix / 20 min rest), and I am going to let them cold ferment for 48 hours.

How long do you typically let the balls rest at room temperature before you stretch? I have a DIY proofing box that I might use for 1/2 hr or so before I stretch and top.   

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2013, 01:15:03 PM »
As far as I know, the percentage of yeast (along with temperature)  only affects how slow or quickly the dough ferments.  American styles tend to produce quicker same day doughs requiring more yeast.  NP guys here typically advocate longer ferments and digestibility and use much smaller amounts of yeast.  You can tailor your dough to your schedule by adjusting yeast amounts and temp of fermentation.


Offline italdream

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2013, 02:57:56 PM »
1) It was difficult to stretch this wet of dough without making the center extremely thin. Any tips?

2) Am I looking for a more chewy crust or more airy? Mine was definitely on the more chewy side. It was very good, but just wondering what the standard is. Maybe I overworked it while stretching it out. There seemed to be so little IDY, is 0.03% a reasonable amount?

The dough needs to be wet but not unworkable. Usually you can add a bit a flour when you are doing the pie, which would add a bit of texture. Do not re-knead the ball as it may result in a tough dough, requiring a rolling pan (big no-no if you are trying to do NP). The rest is technique, which you will improve just by doing more and more pizzas. I am still improving and I have done quite a lot of pizzas during my years of experiments.

Look for good balance between chewy and airy. You do not want a pizza that feels like a chewing gum. You do not want a pizza that feels tough and undercooked. However, many Americans I met would find a good NP to be chewy. I would not describe it as chewy or gummy. It needs not to be.
Look for something that is puffy and soft, almost spongecake-like with fermentation holes, and a slightly dusty surface texture (often sympton of a good 00 flour).

BTW, Congrats I really like the look of your pizza. Just try to spread it a bit more.

Offline jcovey713

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2013, 03:37:23 PM »
As far as I know, the percentage of yeast (along with temperature)  only affects how slow or quickly the dough ferments.  American styles tend to produce quicker same day doughs requiring more yeast.  NP guys here typically advocate longer ferments and digestibility and use much smaller amounts of yeast.  You can tailor your dough to your schedule by adjusting yeast amounts and temp of fermentation.

Good points Chau. I know that Craig made a chart for SD Cultures % vs Time vs Temp. Maybe we need something like that for IDY/ADY/Cake.

I am going for twice the ferment time on this batch, so we'll see how it turns out. Thanks!

Offline jcovey713

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2013, 03:39:21 PM »
italdream,

Thank you. I was fairly happy with it as my first NP pie and the first pie on my BS.

I really appreciate all of your comments. They definitely help form my understanding of what the crust should be like. I will definitely continue practicing.

Offline deb415611

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2013, 04:52:35 PM »


I used the recipe shown here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219699.html#msg219699

But I don't have cake yeast, so I used the yeast conversion chart to get to IDY. If my math was right...that would make it 0.03% IDY.

I incorporated 75% of the flour, salt, IDY and water. I mixed in my KA for two minutes and then let rest for 20 mins. I then mixed on 1/4 speed for 5 mins and then slowly incorporated the remaining flour and mixed for another 5 mins total. I let it rest again for 20 mins. I split and balled the dough. I put in a sealed plastic container and put in the fridge for 22 hours. No reballing, but 10 mins may be be overworking the dough.




I just looked at Craig's chart here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg271398.html#msg271398 and the conversion looks correct based on that.  The recipe you linked did ~24 hours at 65 degrees  (which is pretty close to what Craig's chart predicts also) You wrote that you put in fridge -  based on Craig's chart ~.03 would take over 150 hours .   I think that you may have had trouble stretching because the dough wasn't  ready to be used.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 04:54:08 PM by deb415611 »

Offline jcovey713

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2013, 05:33:54 PM »
Very good point Deb. It looks like I need to ferment at a higher temp for 24-48 hr rises. Thank you!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2013, 05:37:23 PM »
Or increase the amount of yeast used.   :D

Offline Roman

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2013, 05:41:36 PM »
Kudos to Chau's analytic's on jcovey's pies. You broke it down and offered specifics.

Offline Mmmph

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2013, 03:14:38 PM »
Here's a couple shot from this afternoon's bake.

Trying my own deflector design, the Mmmphlector v1.0. I'll release this after a couple more bakes.

Getting closer.
Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2013, 03:23:20 PM »
Nice leoparding Mmmph!   Let's see that badboy Mmmphlector.    >:D

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: The Definitive Blackstone Pizzas thread!
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2013, 03:30:35 PM »
Here's a couple shot from this afternoon's bake.

Trying my own deflector design, the Mmmphlector v1.0. I'll release this after a couple more bakes.

Getting closer.
Looking real good there Mmmph...appears you have a handle on the top browning issue.  :chef:
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