Author Topic: temps  (Read 964 times)

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Offline Chris Velardi

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temps
« on: August 14, 2013, 02:21:25 PM »
our dough has changed over the past few summer months (hotter in the kitchen and the water is warmer{town water} we used to use 185oz of 00 flour 120 oz of 45 degree water 5oz idy and 10oz of iodized salt to make 32- 9.5 oz balls / batch then it got too sticky to handle I upped the flour to 191oz and iced the water from 68 degrees at the tap down to 45 degrees ... looking to perfect our pies to be the same year round. what is the proper temperature equation to use ?


Online Pete-zza

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Re: temps
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2013, 02:47:13 PM »
Chris,

Is this what you are looking for?

http://www.pmq.com/Spring-2003/In-Lehmanns-Terms/

There is also a chart at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/water-temperature-chart but it is based on a friction factor of 30.

Peter

« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 03:31:13 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Chris Velardi

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Re: temps
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2013, 12:10:39 AM »
how does one accurately figure out the mixer friction ? we use a 20 quart Hobart with a dough hook

Online TXCraig1

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Re: temps
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2013, 12:17:05 AM »
With a thermometer?
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Offline clg763

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Re: temps
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2013, 02:56:30 PM »
I don't quite understand where people get the large increases in temperature from using a planetary mixer, I just take the temp when the dough is first forming a shaggy mess, after about 1 minute or less on low speed, then check again after the kneading is complete. There is talk about dough increasing in temp between 10 and 15 degrees F, sometimes more, I typically get an increase of about 4-6F which isn't all that much. Perhaps it is because I only knead for about 5-7 min and do a few stretch and folds on the bench, I don't know.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: temps
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2013, 01:26:16 PM »
how does one accurately figure out the mixer friction ? we use a 20 quart Hobart with a dough hook
Chris,

As the article I referenced discusses, the friction factor is determined as follows: 3 X the actual dough temperature, minus the sum of the room temperature, flour temperature, and tap water temperature.

What you want to do is make a test dough where you know the actual dough temperature at the time the dough comes out of your mixer and also the temperature of the flour and water used to make the dough, and also the temperature of the room where the dough was made. An instant read thermometer is very good for measuring these temperatures although your room themostat may be a good enough indication of room temperature. Then you use the above formula. Remember that the friction factor has to recalculated when you change things, such as the dough formulation, the amount of dough, the types of mixer attachments used, and the mixer type and mixer speeds and times. Most commercial applications call for standardized types and amounts of dough, so the friction factor calculation is fairly reliable from batch to batch. In a home setting, and especially with many variations in terms of dough types and mixer speeds and times, and also when using autolyse, you will spend too much time trying to calculate the friction factor for each variation. I don't think that it is worth the effort unless you like doing these sorts of things just to increase your knowledge of some of the principles of physics and thermodynamics. I have done calculations of friction factors for food processors and bread making machines just for fun.

Peter


Offline nachtwacht

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Re: temps
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2013, 02:00:13 PM »
I would not be supprised if the biggest part of the reason you getting different results is the months that are in between and that resulting in different flour that you are getting. Fresh flour responds very differently than old flour and flour from the spring is different from flour that has grown in the summer.

Bakers do watch their dough temperature closely but from what I understand, they do that primaraly for dough that has short rise times. By kneeding they get a warmer dough temperature and they then let it rise in a surrounding that only slighty differs from the dough temperature making that it will not dry out etc. For me the rise in dough temperature from beginning to end shows me that I have put enough work in my dough. If it does not rise (enough) in temperature, it means I need to kneed more. However, if I make pizza dough and I plan to let it ferment or have some other sort of long rise, the final temperature of my dough does not matter all that much I think. No proof of all the above though, just my thoughts on the process.

Offline clg763

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Re: temps
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2013, 02:30:10 PM »
I would hope that most people are able to tell if the dough is done kneading by the feel of it and not the temperature.

Offline nachtwacht

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Re: temps
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2013, 02:58:10 PM »
Completely agree, it definatly would need to feel ready to begin with.

Just a small example of where it unfortunatly the feel of your dough is not enough.

I have a rise cabinet wich is set to 30 degrees (talking celcius here) to let my dough rise. Preferrably I will put in my dough roughly at 28 or 29 degrees. If the difference is more than 2 degrees, my yeast will not like the difference in temperature. The outside of my doughball will rise faster than the center making for instance that you will have big air bubbles at the outside of a bread you are baking and small air bubbles at the center. Since you want your dough to rise evenly, you want the temperature of the dough close to that of the place where you let it rise.

So I feel my dough is finished kneeding... I take my thermometer and... find it is only 27 degrees. That is to big a difference in temperature. I will have to work it roughly another minute for my dough to realy be ready.

Offline clg763

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Re: temps
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2013, 04:05:19 PM »
Huh, I understand what you are saying but that's not what I have ever heard or encountered in my research and work. What you are talking about may happen but most of the dough recipes I use are cold fermented at some point in time and then need to be pulled out. If what you are saying is true, then the first fermentation would be very off due to the outside cooling faster than the inside and the second fermentation would be off when you bring it to room temp because the outside would ferment faster than than the inside.

I am open to learning more though, I'd have to try that out on some of my same day dough recipes that have room temp rises. I have always found that the proofing boxes moderate the temperatures more than I would like anyways.


Offline nachtwacht

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Re: temps
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2013, 06:23:28 PM »
Since cold fermentation usualy takes like 24 hours or longer, the dough temp is a "non issue". It does not matter if you cool it down to 6 degrees celcius starting from 28 degrees or 26 degrees. It will take a few extra minutes to cool fully cool down but on the 24 hours, that does not matter. As soon as the temperature is the same throughout the whole dough, the fermentation and rise will do it everywhere the same. Also when bringing it up to temp again, you are not doing that in 5 minutes time. You need a much longer time for that so it will go very gradualy so you will not see (a lot of / any) difference in the outside or inside.

So the dough temperature "only" applies to same day dough. I did a search if I could find some sites talking about it. Here is some theory wich I think explains it.

http://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/a-few-tips-on-dough-temperature/

Short story. Optimum is just over 27 celcius / 80 Fahrenheit. At 21C/70F the activity of the yeast has roughly halved, so the fermentation will take twice as long.

21C/70F is roughly room temperature. Imagine me kneeding a big loaf of bread. Recipy says let it rise for 45 minutes. I kneed it and my dough temperature is 27 degrees when I start my rise. 45 minutes later, the outside of my dough ball has cooled down to 21 degrees. The inside will have a higher temperature. Since 6 degrees Celsius 10 Fahrenheit apperantly makes a 100% difference (or 50% depending on where you start to count) that will have a big impact on my final result.

How about if your room temperature at your house is 19 degrees.... A few degrees here and there can make a big difference on your final product. Especialy for OP since he wants to produce the same results every time. So I do think temperature matters. If you (can) control all the variables, it will be easier to produce consistent results.


 

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