Lou Malnati's Chicago Style Pizza

[beerisgoodfood]

As a newb here ive tried two pies.

First i used 2 - 28 oz 6-1 and it came out a bit soupy... Even though i like soupy this was real soupy.

Second attempt i drained 2 - 28 oz 6-1 and it came out a bit not soupy enough for my taste.

I did use lots of sauteed onions and mushrooms and fresh green pepper so im thinking the next time ill drain one can and not drain the other one.

Ive never personally had Lous pizza but i bought my dad some over the internet per the reviews here. He sounded fairly happy with the pizza like he got a great one and then a so so one.

 

[CHAD]

Thank you very much you guys. I can't wait to try it out this weekend. And if anyone else has a great Chicago Style Sauce (like Lou's, Geno's or Uno's) recipe please feel free to post it. Because if i've heard correctly, it's all in the SAUCE.....Thanks againg guys. Chad

[lilbuddypizza]

As a newb here ive tried two pies.

First i used 2 - 28 oz 6-1 and it came out a bit soupy... Even though i like soupy this was real soupy.

Second attempt i drained 2 - 28 oz 6-1 and it came out a bit not soupy enough for my taste.

I did use lots of sauteed onions and mushrooms and fresh green pepper so im thinking the next time ill drain one can and not drain the other one.

Ive never personally had Lous pizza but i bought my dad some over the internet per the reviews here. He sounded fairly happy with the pizza like he got a great one and then a so so one.

 

I find that using onion or peppers "fresh" adds a lot of moisture to the pizza,therefore making it soupy.

[buzz]

it's been awhile since I've been to Uno's or malnati's (since I don't personally care for them), but I believe they use crushed whole tomatoes instead of ground ( like 6-in-1). Just get a can of whole peeled tomatoes (true San Marzano's are the best), drain them, and crush them with your fingers. Then add the seasonings you like. This works very nicely for a deep dish pizza.

[abc]

I have found the Chicago Style Sausage recipe in the recipe section of this website to be very good, but does anyone have any other Chicago Style sausage recipes out there?

is this the recipe? 
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,717.0.html

[bearfootie]

Tried your Lou recipe from June 9th with the semolina but used corn oil and olive oil, (80-20) (for lack of Crisco).Kneaded it about 3 minutes. Been trying to create a Lou pizza for 9 months since I was taken off to Montana where there is no good pizza. This one you came up with is really, really, close. Used a stone on rack above pizza (about 6 inches up) (both preheated in oven too)  and a stone with an aluminum baking sheet under it, on the middle rack and sat my pan on the stone. Used the baking pan as I have a new electric oven and wasn't sure if I'd stress the stone with direct heat from the element. Browned perfectly top and bottom at same time. Used your 500 degrees and snuck it in quick after 1/2 hr preheat. Temp never varied at insertion.  Also tried something I never tried before which was making sure all ingredients were at room temp so as not to bring down temp (which I think helps). Used a blend of S&W diced tomatoes mixed with 20% S&W crushed tomatoes that already had oregano,basil,thyme, anise, pepper and salt. (This makes a super great tasting sauce.) Your recipe really pleased more than any I've invented or anyone else's I have tried. Should stop here as it was great, but wonder what would happen if I tried bread flour and am thinking about trying mozz' made from whole milk. What do you think? Anyway at this point you've made me a very happy woman! Thanks, DKM!

[buzz]

Malnati's uses corn oil, so that's good if you want to duplicate their taste.

S&W is an excellent brand (you're very lucky to have them!), but I would use whole tomatoes, crushed and drained by hand for the Malnati's experience.

I would not use bread flour or whole milk mozzarella if you want to be authentic, but why not experiment? You might make a better pie than Malnati's (which would be a good thing IMO--LOL!).

I've never needed a stone to cook a deep dish and 500 seems a little high (the restaurants keep it at 450), but if it works!

[bearfootie]

The crisco was included, as was the 500 temp, in DKM's recipe which (I forgot to allude to it being his version) In mine I used 80% corn oil and 20% olive oil as I knew for sure that's what they used as I called them once and said I was concerned about allergies concerning oils and cornmeal and they assured me they used those oils only and no cornmeal. ( I know sneaky, but now you see how desperate I am for the recipe!) I tried 450 the last time I attempted my Lou pizza, but a little different recipe and the top cooked too quickly, but I didn't have the stone underneath the pan and had a stone over the top, six inches up, once again, so I'm sure this was the problem. He also said in the June 9th recipe in this thread to bake it for 15 minutes but it took more around 25 and was not at all overcooked. So many variables to consider. You would think by now someone who had worked there would have ofted with the " for sure" recipe and posted it somewhere but maybe they make you sign some kind of legal document when you work there! When I lived there all those years I should have gotten a job at Lou's and kept my eyes open! I could have at least looked in the dumpster for the flour bags, tomato cans, cheese wrappings, etc. and see what I could have concluded! Now in Montana it's a little late for hindsight I guess.

[Pete-zza]

bearfootie,

I wouldn't feel guilty about asking food suppliers what is in their products. Most of them are used to it because of legitimate concerns of people, including vegans and those with allergies, who are concerned about what they are eating. In fact, pizza chains are asked the questions so often that many of them provide the information at their websites (but usually only to the extent required by law). Also, many municipalities, especially school systems, require that their vendors identify what is in their products before certifying them as vendors. More than once I have found ingredient lists from some of the big pizza chains in searches that turned up in online documents from school systems.

This morning, I read a news item that a vegan in California is proposing a class action lawsuit against McDonald's for failing to tell consumers that their fries are flavored with wheat- and milk-based ingredients. McDonald's has been trying to do a better job of disclosing what is in their products, but may have fallen short on this one. We live in a litigious society, so we can expect more rather than less in the way of disclosure of ingredients used in different food products.

Peter

[buzz]

You can make any Chicago deep dish by using lots of oil, no cornmeal, AP, and a short knead. Which oil you choose is up to you--Malnati's uses corn oil; Uno's uses soybean oil; Gino's East uses corn and extra virgin olive oil; and Giordano's uses canola with a little lighter-styled olive oil.  Gino's East and Giordano's are much more biscuit- (almost pie-) like, and the ratio of oil to flour for their recipe is 3 TBS oil: 1 cup flour; Malnati's and Uno's (which are basically the same pizza) are very greasy, so I'm assuming there's a lot more oil. The best way to duplicate a restaurant recipe at home is to take this basic information and do repeated trials!

I truly don't know why 450 didn't work for you--I've tried 500 and found it to be way too hot--and the restaurants themselves cook at 450. I personally don't use a stone for deep dish. In my regular gas oven, it takes 35-40 minutes to cook a 9.5" deep dish--yours may be different.

As for talking to employees--usually these chains have a commissary where they prepare dough, etc., so the line employees would have no knowledge of ingredients. Some have their sauce prepared by the tomato vendor--they just buy it in huge cans.

[foodblogger]

Gino's East and Giordano's are much more biscuit- (almost pie-) like, and the ratio of oil to flour for their recipe is 3 TBS oil: 1 cup flour; Malnati's and Uno's (which are basically the same pizza) are very greasy, so I'm assuming there's a lot more oil.

I think Gino's USED to be biscuit like.  The first time I ate there (early 80's) it was almost exactly like Uno's crust, only with yellow food coloring and different toppings.  By the time I left Chicago, 2001, it was a lot more bread like.  I am thinking about digging up some of my old photos of pies from Gino's from different time periods.  The baker's formula I posted in another post absolutely NAILS Gino's crust, but I actually prefer it with shorter knead times and a little bit different processing so I now make a pie that is distinct from modern day Gino's, which to my recollection is more bready than biscuit.  Just a few thoughts.

[buzz]

I just had a Gino's East  deep dish and it is extremely biscuit-like, even more so than Giordano's. Not at all bread-like. You may have thought it was more bread-like than Uno's, because Uno's, like Malnati's, is much more greasy--I would have to describe it as somehow more "loose", a mouth feel you can duplicate by using a very lot of oil, such as 4 TBS oil: 1 cup flour.

[foodblogger]

I just had a Gino's East  deep dish and it is extremely biscuit-like, even more so than Giordano's. Not at all bread-like. You may have thought it was more bread-like than Uno's, because Uno's, like Malnati's, is much more greasy--I would have to describe it as somehow more "loose", a mouth feel you can duplicate by using a very lot of oil, such as 4 TBS oil: 1 cup flour.

I confess I haven't eaten at Gino's since 2001.  Maybe they changed or we are talking about different qualities when we say 'biscuit-like'.  When I say biscuit like I mean that the dough hasn't risen much and has small, uniform bubbles.  Biscuit like to me means that the crust is harder than a more breadlike NY style crust.  Also biscuit-like to me means more like a pie-crust than a piece of white bread.  I ate at Gino's a huge number of times spanning literally decades.  I ate there at different times of the day and night, at different days of the week and different times of the year.  I've had Gino's when it was super busy and you had to wait in line for 2 hours and I've had it when I was one of a handful of people in the restaurant.  All of those little things make small but noticeable differences in what you are served.  The last time I had their pizza was 2001 so I am speaking about 5 year old data, but the crust then was more like a well-baked piece of white bread than what I would consider biscuit like.  I enclosed a photo of a slice that has characteristics like I used to get in 2001.  Either Gino's has changed again or we have to be talking about different things.  I have to get back to Chicago and see for myself.

[foodblogger]

Here is another description of what the typical Gino's crust was like.  The rims were of varying thickness, but usually the rim was a little thicker at the bottom than at the top.  Sometimes the rim at the bottom would be 1/2 to 3/4 inch thick.  The bottom and sides of the crust were of varying crispnesses depending on when you were served the pizza.  When it was really busy they didn't leave the pizzas in the oven for very long and the crusts wouldn't be all that crisp on the outside.  When it was not so busy, or when someone just forgot a pizza in the oven for a while, the crust would be almost cracker crisp.  In both cases, once you had consumed the rest of the slice you would be left with a rim.  I used to take my finger and scoop the bread stuff from the rim, leaving the crispness of the outer rim behind.  I'd then eat the rim because I liked the crisper part better.  To each his own I guess.  The point is that biscuit-like to me means that you can't scoop bread from the rim.  I have never been served a pizza at Uno's where that was possible.  I only ate 1 pizza at Lou Malnati's, so I can't say that I have all that much experience there, but it was similar to Uno's.  The rim of the crust in both places was a LOT firmer than I ever got at Gino's, except for the first few times I had Gino's in the early 80's.  Are we talking about the same thing?

[buzz]

To me, there's a huge difference between bread-like and biscuit-like. If you knead an oil- or Crisco-rich deep dish dough for 8-10 minutes, the result is like a loaf of bread (which is basically what you are making). This is exactly what frustrated me when I first attempted duplicating the deep dish restaurant experience at home, because none of the available recipes were duplicating rhe biscuit-like character of the Chicago deep dishes I was getting in the restaurants. It was only when I discovered the higher oil content and short knead time that I was able to duplicate these pies at home.

The pies at Giordano's, Gino's East, Uno's, and Malnati's are not bread-like at all, but very biscuit-like, with Gino's being the most biscuit-like of all. This implies a lot of oil and a short knead--just like you would do when making biscuits or pie crust.

Maybe we just are not in sync with our terminology!

[bearfootie]

Buzz,
The ingredient list on the lid of the last Lou M. pizza I kept says it contains corn and olive oil. Do you think possibly that the olive oil is not really and addition to the pizza but they are referring to what they oil the pan with? I have never found them to be a really oily pizza, at least not at the Lou's I used to eat at in Naperville weekly. When I think of greasy I think of Pizza huts crusts, (both thin and pan) where the oil comes off on your hands.

I cook on a stone with a thin aluminum baking pan under the stone (so as to avoid direct heat from the element stressing the stone) as I have a new electric oven and have found it can burn biscuits on a regular baking pan due to the fact that unlike a gas oven there is no layer of metal sheeting between the heat source and the baking pan. I tried 450 after your last post and it worked the same as 500 did. I left the baking pan, stone ritual in place with a stone 6 inches over pizza. Tricks the pizza into thinking its in a nice little oven. The bottom and top comes out  browned evenly at 450 or 500.

Referring to Gino's crusts, they were different in the late 60's early 70's than they are now. I ate a lot at the one in St. Charles Ill in the 80's and 90's and while good they weren't the same as the original in Chicago.

I've got the textures about right for a Lou's pizza but I just don't think the crust tastes rich enough. It seems like at Lou's, sometimes, not always, they had a more yeasty/ beer like flavor which I really liked. (Maybe I should substitute beer for some of the water as an experiment.) Possibly  this was when they let the dough overferment! I'm using about 2 TSP oil per cup, maybe I need more like three to achieve a richer taste?

A place called Georgi's in the Northern suburbs, Crystal Lake Ill.,( not Papa Georgi's)
produces consistently Lou like pizza, only richer, and more flavorful, stronger tasting is how I would describe it. It may be the cheese or the yeast . Not really sure. In his younger days the owner used to work for Lou's.

Many think I 'm obsessed with the pizza thing, Ya think?

[buzz]

Bearfootie--

They could oil their pans with olive oil (although Giordano's for example, uses margarine, which is cheaper), or they could have a very small amount in their oil mix. I would guess that Giordano's uses 95% canola and 5% olive oil. Gino's East tastes of extra virgin olive oil (they use a corn/olive oil blend).

I find Malnati's to be greasy, as opposed to oily--so unpleasantly so that I threw the last one I had away! Same with Uno's, which is basically the same recipe. I get the same mouth feel/taste when I knead an oil-rich deep dish dough for under 2 minutes.

I have a gas oven, so I can't comment on the electric (although my electtric convection coutertop oven cooks pizza marvelously well)--maybe Peter could help you with that!

I don't know about the Gino's crusts from long ago, but perhaps they've cheapened everything as they've expanded--it happens! I just had one and the crust is very similar to Giordano's, except that it is overpowered by the taste of extra virgin olive oil. I thought the texture of the crust was extremely good.

As for the richness of the Malnati's, you're going to need more oil--at least 3 TBS (not tsp) oil per cup of flour. Also, use corn oil as your principal fat. I don't believe they use beer in their crust (Edwardo's does, I think), but you could try upping your yeast a little bit.

Pizza obsession is a good thing!

Have fun!

[foodblogger]

Bearfootie -
Gino's is definately different now than it was in the late 70's, early 80's.  Back then the crust was a lot more like Uno's than it is now.  In fact, I contend to this day that there was corn meal in the crust back then but everyone howls when I mention it.  I remember those pies having a crust like Uno's with a bunch of yellow food coloring and different toppings.

[buzz]

It still is very yellow! I doubt it ever had corn meal--I think this was just an attempt by cookbook authors to explain the yellow coloring of the crust!

[Pete-zza]

bearfootie,

According to experts like Tom Lehmann, the key aspect of baking deep-dish pies is to have them bake slowly. In my electric oven, I simply put the unbaked deep-dish pie on the center oven rack and bake at around 425-450 degrees F for about 20 minutes or so. This is for a 9 1/2" pie. In my oven, the exposed top edge of the crust browns fairly early, so I just put a sheet of aluminum foil over the top of the pizza. The advantage of using my approach over using a stone is that I don't have to wait for the stone to get to its desired temperature. I only have to heat the ambient oven temperature to 425-450 degrees F, which takes only 10-15 minutes or so for my oven. In the summer, this can be a good thing.

Professional pizza operators usually use three different types of systems for baking deep-dish pies. The first is a reel-type oven that has several solid deck surfaces that rotate about a central axis like a Ferris wheel. The pies are baked for about 20-30 minutes at 425-450 degrees F. The second system is a standard deck oven, and the bake times and temperatures are about the same as with the reel-type ovens, although the reel-type ovens are considered to be better overall for baking deep-dish pies. The third system is an air impingement oven. These ovens are not considered as good as the others because they are not as well suited for deep-dish pies and they tend to work too fast, typically 12 minutes for a typical deep-dish pie.

In your case, using a stone in effect simulates a deck type oven. I would think that if you preheat the stone to say, 425-450 degrees or so, you should be able to bake your deep-dish pie slowly and with a total bake time commensurate with the size of your pie. I can't say that I understand the need for the baking pan between the heat source (lower coil element) and the stone. The stone should be able to withstand the direct heat from the lower coil element without being stressed. Also, the metal baking pan will be more highly conductive than the stone and will heat up faster than the stone and prevent the stone from heating up as quickly. It may also alter the bake time/temperature balance of the pie itself. Have you tried baking a pie without using the baking pan between the lower coil and the stone? You might even consider putting the stone at the middle rack of your oven if the tops and bottoms of your pies have been baking unevenly. You might also do a test without the second stone, even though it increases the thermal mass and creates a smaller oven effect. 

Peter