Author Topic: Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?  (Read 2094 times)

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Online waltertore

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Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?
« on: August 16, 2013, 09:27:02 PM »
Tom:  I am curious about when this practice started and I figured you would know.  Thanks.  Walter

http://www.newarkcityschools.org/content_page2.aspx?cid=1032


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2013, 08:34:21 AM »
Walter,

Having studied the various stages of the evolution of the NY style over the years (decades, actually), I, too, will be interested in Tom's response. But, in the meantime, I would like to direct your attention to the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14920.msg148001.html#msg148001. In my opinion, that thread, with its many crossreferencing links, including the posts of Evelyne Slomon, who wrote a book on the subject of pizza, is a treasure trove of information on the evolution of the NY style. While the thread covers a lot more material than just the introduction of refrigeration to the dough making process, I did touch upon that facet at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14920.msg148155/topicseen.html#msg148155.

Peter

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Re: Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2013, 10:12:36 AM »
Peter:  Thanks for that info.  A ton of stuff to  digetst!   Walter

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2013, 11:41:39 AM »
Cold fermenting was probably discovered/introducted to pizza making accidentally and evolved from there. The first pizzerias in America were for the most part bakeries, they already had ovens and dough, they made pizza for the working man who needed a fast lunch. One day a baker probably made more dough than he needed for a day, and since nothing could go to waste, he probably stuck it in his ice box and discovered that it had more flavor the next day. Necessity is the mother of invention.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2013, 01:41:20 PM »
Dave,

I think a lot of it might have to do with space. As Scott123 has discussed before, space is a premium in most NYC pizzerias. Bulk fermentation (same day or overnight) requires less space than using refrigeration to make a like number of dough balls. Of course, that doesn't answer the question of when someone decided to extend the fermentation period using refrigeration. I suppose, there can be several answers to that question: space got cheaper, coolers became smaller and more efficient, volume management and inventory management became easier and better, competitors started doing it and others followed, profits got better, etc.

Peter

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Re: Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2013, 04:27:35 PM »
Cold fermenting was probably discovered/introducted to pizza making accidentally and evolved from there. The first pizzerias in America were for the most part bakeries, they already had ovens and dough, they made pizza for the working man who needed a fast lunch. One day a baker probably made more dough than he needed for a day, and since nothing could go to waste, he probably stuck it in his ice box and discovered that it had more flavor the next day. Necessity is the mother of invention.

I'd say the effect of cold fermentation on flavor was probably exactly the opposite. I'm thinking that we knew that multiple day fermentation delivers more flavor long before there was refrigeration. I agree that necessity is the mother of invention, but so is trying to make things easier and in this case, they only had to give some flavor to get there.
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2013, 07:56:06 AM »
Walter;
I don't know when that school started doing it but I worked as an adviser to a very similar one all the way back in the early 1970's when we were still up in Chicago.
When my wife was still teaching elementary school I organized several student run fund raising dinners at her grade school. With help from the ladies in their kitchen to prepare the food (pizza dinners and sometimes pasta dinners) the kids would sell tickets, meet and escort diners to their table, bring the food to the tables, bus and reset the tables for the next dinner guests. This was a great learning experience for the kids, and it was always one of their best fund raisers too, so I can fully appreciate all the benefits something like this brings to the students.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Re: Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2013, 08:06:35 AM »
Tom,

Do you recall when pizzerias first started cold fermenting dough?

Peter

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Re: Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2013, 01:58:18 PM »
Walter;
I don't know when that school started doing it but I worked as an adviser to a very similar one all the way back in the early 1970's when we were still up in Chicago.
When my wife was still teaching elementary school I organized several student run fund raising dinners at her grade school. With help from the ladies in their kitchen to prepare the food (pizza dinners and sometimes pasta dinners) the kids would sell tickets, meet and escort diners to their table, bring the food to the tables, bus and reset the tables for the next dinner guests. This was a great learning experience for the kids, and it was always one of their best fund raisers too, so I can fully appreciate all the benefits something like this brings to the students.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Hi Tom:  The good old days.........  Now most of the kids at the cognitive levels I work with are being taught Algebra and they can't add 3+3.   I am a lone wolf in todays education world.  Actually my question was when did pizzerias start cold fermenting their dough?   Thanks.   Walter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2013, 03:16:38 PM »
Walter;
No telling for sure, but I'm willing to bet that the practice goes back to some of the very first pizzas made. If you are referring to the modern cold ferment process as we use it today in our pizzerias, it can be dated to about 1958 and it was in pretty common use just a few short years later. The use of the process follows the development of the pizza chains as we know them today.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2013, 11:40:08 PM »
When did the non-franchise guys begin cold-fermenting their dough, if they do?  The two I worked at in the 70s and 80s certainly did not, they were both straight up make it, proof it, ball it, serve it.  Domino's, who I also worked with had grey dough, cold fermented, not frozen balls in the mid 1980s.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2013, 11:48:13 PM »
Actually, now that I think about it, the Domino's dough was not gray, we called it the French, "Gridouax" (sp), which they said meant trash.

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Re: Tom: When did pizzerias start cold fermenting dough?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2013, 07:19:49 AM »
thanks Tom.  The 2 small places I worked in NJ (early-mid 70's) made the dough and used it the same day.  I know refrigeration space was very limited in both of those places.  Neither had a walkin.  That is a trip the chains started the trend to develop more flavor in the crust.  Walter
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 10:16:10 AM by waltertore »


 

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