Kitchen Aid 5qt Artisan - doen't seem to actually knead?

[Wazatron]

I have a pretty new Kitchen Aid 5qt Artisan mixer.  I've only been able to use it, oh, maybe 6-8 times so far.  My question is really about the dough hook.  Whenever I've tried making dough it doesn't seem to really knead the dough.  By the time the dough really comes together, it just kind of rolls it up in a log or torpedo kind of shape and then it spins around the bowl - the hook doesnt' really continue to break into it and work the dough.

Is this a problem with my dough recipe?  Or maybe a problem with my hook - or heaven forbid my mixer? It seems to have happend every time so far, regardless of pizza dough/biscuit dough/etc.  I've never gotten to the point where the dough "climbs" the hook, so you know it's done or whatever.

Does anyone else have problems like this?  I just tried to make a loaf of italian bread tonight, using high-protein bread flour, and when it was "done" the dough didn't seem to have come together, and I couldn't really work it into a uniform ball without a bunch of cracks and lines and stuff.  Is this a problem with KA mixers?

Thanks all!

---- Edit -----

After reading around some more, I suppose I should also say that the recipe was a normal size recipe: 3 cups of flour.  I wasn't trying to do anything crazy or a huge double batch.  The mixer head seemed to bounce around a lot (the base never moved) and again, the dough just never really seemed to get kneaded at all.   The bread came out incredibly dense, and the loaf seemed to weigh a ton.  Obviously the dough didn't get kneaded anywhere near where it should have been.  I'm affraid this mixer will be complete useless for any kind of dough recipes!

[PizzaBrewer]

Yup, that's the problem I've had with my KA mixer.  The dough just rides around on the hook with no real kneading action.

There is a spiral hook available from KA that supposedly does a much better job.  However it only fits on certain of the mixers.

---Guy

[fliplap]

A quick tip, a drop or 2 of olive oil, rubbed onto the hook will cure this problem.

I use the spiral hook and without that minute amount of oil, I would get the same thing.

[KAidVerne]

flipflap,  I'd be interested in what recipe, capacity, and order of ingredients you are using.  For almost all of our internal tests, we see dough climbing with our spiral hook 10 percent of the time at MOST, way less than with our "C" hook.   Many other customers are confirming this behavior as well.

[rondo]

KAidVerne, I have a related question/observation. I have a KA 600 Professional and the spiral dough hook. I made the following recipe this week end.
Flour 32 oz (King Arthur high gluten)
Water 18.5
Yeast 5 t
Sugar 2 1/2 t
Salt 3 1/4 t
Olive Oil  1 oz
I proofed the yeast, sugar and water and then added the flour and salt and lastly added the Oilve Oil. While the dough did not climb the hook, the recipe did stall the machine after about 5 minutes of kneading. I recently received this machine on a warranty program and have made the above dough on my previous machine, same basic model, many times. The only difference this time was I usually use 2 oz of oil and I added the oil last and after the other ingrediants were mixed together. I am curious if anything in this recipe is that unusual, to cause it to stall the machine?

[KAidVerne]

Rondo,  while I am personally not a bread or dough expert, that doesn't seem like that large a load.  Perhaps adding oil at the very end caused the dough to be stiffer or more difficult for the hook to work through.  I'd try this a few more times, and really watch the exact amount of time you are kneading AND mixing.  If it really seems to not be up to your expectations, give our service center a call.  There IS variability in all manufactured products, and it could be that this machine is on the lower end of the performance range from a thermal trip standpoint.

[fliplap]

flipflap,  I'd be interested in what recipe, capacity, and order of ingredients you are using.  For almost all of our internal tests, we see dough climbing with our spiral hook 10 percent of the time at MOST, way less than with our "C" hook.   Many other customers are confirming this behavior as well.

Since I've only got a home oven my dough is is on the very wet side. The mixer is the Costco special model. I use the method described on varasano's webpage: http://www.think2020.com/jv/recipe.htm

I tend to see a lot of climbing with that method as before the last 1/2 cup or so of flour is added, the dough is extremely sticky. I tend to have to re-lube the hook 2 or 3 times. If I add all the ingredients at once, bring it together with the paddle and immediately begin kneeding, I can get away with just an intial oiling.

[Lydia]

Can someone tell me wether the artisan has the wide bowl (same width as the 6 qt epicurean)? I ask becasue the width and depth and hook-version all seem directly affect kneading, as well as the batch size and hydration of the dough.

I have the 6 qt. epicurean and the 5 qt. professional HD from Costco.

With the Epicurean and the C-hook; most of my pizza dough recipes that have varying hydration levels will climb the hook in a way that doesn't knead well, I either occassionally pull the dough free from the hook and continue kneading, or increase the speed a notch or two for short blasts (about 1 or less), and in some cases doubling the recipe helped some.

I find the spiral hook and the narrower bowl rolls and presses the dough, much more like kneading, vs. the 6qt with C-hook which will do more slapping than kneading.

KA VERN?

Any known reasons why I shouldn't use the 5qt bowl that fits my 6 qt. epicurean as long as I adjust the bowl height?

and if I do, am I voiding out my waranty? I'm actually well past my warranty, I'm just curious.

I also would like to know if I can swap dough-hooks between the two machines.

I was thinking that the narrower spiral hook in the wider bowl would allow larger dough batches to knead more efficiently than the C-hook.

FYI, I prefer the coating on the c-hook over the non-coating of the spiral because I can throw it in the dishwasher
But I'm now wondering if the coating also is affecting kneading, by allowing the dough to cling too much or not enough.

[KAidVerne]

Lydia,  it is NEVER a good idea to use our spiral hook on a mixer that did not originally come with it.  We have beefed up the gearing to handle the higher loads the spiral hook experiences.  The spiral nature of the hook itself is the reason the kneading is more efficient and prevents dough from climbing.  This is true whether it is a narrow bowl, wide bowl, coated, or uncoated version. 

The Artisan is a tilt head mixer, and does not come in the wide bowl design, nor can it handle a spiral hook (due to the more delicate latching mechanism necessary for the tilt head).

[Lydia]

Thanks Vern

[SteveVit]

Is this a problem with my dough recipe?  Or maybe a problem with my hook - or heaven forbid my mixer?

Sounds like you need to do more "wet kneading."  I have the same mixer and I get very nice results. Use the paddle attachment and 40% of the flour and knead dough when it’s batter like – as you add flour you’ll see it start to pull and get more ribbon like. Once it starts to ball on the paddle change over to a dough hook and add the remanding flour to finish up.

I like the mixer but it is small and it’s not the best working with stiff low hydration dough.


Steve

[Lydia]

For those having trouble with kneading, especially with the C-hook. Removing the dough and breaking it into serveral pieces and returning them one at a time to the bowl while mixing, will will prevent the climb and ensure that the ingredients are distributed evenly throughout. 

But I typically use the method mentioned by Stevevit

I like the Costco model too, I wouldn't buy anything less for pizza making, but I'm taking my Costco HD back, I can't live without a 6qt bowl, and I really not thrilled that I cant pick up and extra bowl at a local houseware store.

Costco's Professional HD parts have to be order direct from KitchenAid.

[drbill28]

I do what many others here do.  First, I add all my ingredients before I start mixing, all liquids, then salt/sugar, then flour.  I use the flat beater to bring it all together for a few minutes.  I spray non-stick cooking spray on my hook and switch to that.  I have the 5 qt tilt head model and it does just fine.  My recipe is small, so I have to watch it.  Sometimes it gets pushed off the hook and onto the sides and the hook barely makes any contact with the dough.

[gschwim]

You could spray the dough hook with olive oil spray, but in any case, if you're having this problem, your dough-water ratio might be off and you need to add, little-by-little, additional water or flour.  The dough should clear the sides of the mixer bowl, but remain to the bottom of the bowl.  That's where you get the kneading action:  the twisting effect as the bottom of the dough sticks to the bowl and the rest is spun around by the dough hook.

[Jack]

I took the time to polish up my dough hook (Costco Professional) with a worn green scotch brite pad until it was very smooth.  Over time it has oxidized (darker mottled gray), since I only clean it with a soft sponge, and is now very smooth and slippery.  This seems to have stopped the dough from climbing.

Jack