Author Topic: Some AT variable doughs  (Read 1214 times)

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Offline Needssalt

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Some AT variable doughs
« on: August 19, 2013, 11:43:41 PM »
Hi all.  I'm kind of a new poster. Summer usually isn't an indoor pizza time for me, but I'm starting the season early. Figured I put this in the NY because I know people here like the AT.  I've been making home pizza for years.  I started playing with AT and steel a little over a year ago (thank you PM.com).  I haven't baked since like May, so I decided not to even look at last winter's notes, I just went with what seemed good in my head this day.  I made 3 doughs:

1.   100%  500g Flour (400 AT : 100 KAAP)
        61%  305g cold tap water
        2.2%   11g Kosher salt
        3.0%   15g Oil
        .06%    .3g ADY

2. Same as above with NO oil.     
      100%  500g Flour (400 AT : 100 KAAP)
        61%  305g cold tap water
        2.2%   11g Kosher salt
        .06%    .3g ADY

3. Same as number 1. with 100% AT
      100%  500g  All Trumps Flour 
        61%  305g cold tap water
        2.2%   11g Kosher salt
        3.0%   15g Oil
        .06%    .3g ADY

Doughs 1 and 2, I made smaller (270g+ish) balls. The all AT balls were 400g+.  I usually ball after mixing, and refrigerate.  This time I wanted to try a bulk at 64deg, see what happens.  I had to sleep, so I ended up checking at 18hours.  Kind of surprised at the activity, so I decided to ball.  I kept some out for that night, which ended up with a total ferment of 26 hours by the time I baked.  The other balls I decided to refrigerate, and ended up using 24 hours later (50 hours total).  Then there was one ball of the blended with oil, and one ball of the 100%AT I left for 5 days in fridge. .  I've always taken pics of pizzas, so sorry if there's too many.....

Also, I'm not baking on the screens, I just keep them out for a cooling rack.

Dough 1. (oil) 26 and 50 hrs


     



« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 12:57:48 AM by Needssalt »


Offline Needssalt

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 11:47:11 PM »
Dough 2.   26 and 50 hrs.


Offline Needssalt

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 11:49:50 PM »
Dough 3.  100% All trumps  26 and 50 hrs


Offline Needssalt

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 11:53:29 PM »
These were the 5 day balls.  1st 3 are a dough #1 (oil).  Next 5 were an all AT 400g.   


Offline scott123

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2013, 04:53:28 PM »
Really nice pies and documentation.

Technically, in order to judge KAAP and AT side by side, you should factor in their different absorption values and use more protein specific hydrations, but, I think, even with one dough on the wet side, and one on the dry, it's pretty obvious to me which flour made the better pizza. Just look at those undercrusts!

The nail's officially in the coffin.  AT, rest in peace  ;D

Offline Needssalt

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2013, 07:42:57 PM »
I hope I didn't write something wrong.  2 of 3 of those doughs were 80% All Trumps, 20% KAAP. One had 3%oil, one had no oil.   Dough number 3 was 100% All Trumps.  Maybe the way I wrote it was confusing.  I actually really like the All Trumps.  I don't have any of the tenderness issues unless I over mix. 

Offline scott123

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2013, 07:52:26 PM »
Doh! I totally read your formula's wrong.  I saw '100 KAAP' and thought it was 100% KAAP.

Anyway, even at 20%, the KAAP blend seemed to produce what looks to be a slightly more tender crust with better microblistering, imo.

Offline Needssalt

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2013, 08:08:40 PM »
What I really want to do is try a lower protein flour.   Here is a 90% AT 10%KAAP @ 62% from last night.  That dough was made on the 16th. 

1/2" steel @ 530+ convection broil.   


Offline scott123

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2013, 11:28:03 PM »
Lower protein, for NY, is the way to go.  80% AT/20% KAAP gives you a blend with 13.5% protein. You can clearly see in the photos what that drop in protein gives you.  I'm using Spring King (13.2%), but you can go all the way down to 12.7% with great results.

Before you start looking for bromated 12.7% to 13.2% flour (it can be very hard to find in most areas), try a 50/50 AT/KAAP blend.  That should give you a closer approximation to what a lower protein flour will be like.

Whatever process you're using for making the dough, stick with it, those are looking great.

How long are you kneading for?  If I had to guess, it looks like you're either barely kneading or kneading for a very long time.

Offline Needssalt

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2013, 08:37:19 AM »
You got it, barely kneading.  I've over mixed the AT a couple times, and did not like the results.  As it is now, I get that thin crunch with a surprisingly tender crumb.  Reheats good too. I'll try that 50:50 blend next week.  I'll try a couple different mixing approaches too, as I do it by hand.   Have to look back at my notes too, I may have already experimented.   Thanks again...
I have some 3 day 60% hydration balls for tonight,.... I'll try to post tomorrow. 


Offline scott123

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2013, 03:26:55 PM »
NS, do you ever have stretching issues?  I find that the window between undermixed and overmixed with AT is very small.  If you overmix, there's a propensity for toughness, but if you undermix, you can run into drier and wetter areas of the dough, which can cause tearing during the stretch as well as trouble releasing from the peel. Hitting that perfectly mixed target with AT is extremely difficult. This is why I stopped using it.

Online JD

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2013, 10:18:42 PM »
What an informative thread.

Scott, what would you suggest is a better option? The 50/50 AT/KAAP mix, or straight KABF?

Josh

Offline scott123

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2013, 10:40:47 PM »
1. Good

KABF (12.7% protein/unbromated)

2. Better

50/50 AT/KAAP (12.9% protein/50% bromated)

3. Best

Spring King (13.2% protein/100% bromated)
or
Full Strength (12.6% protein/100% bromated)
or any other 12.6-13.2% bromated flour

Offline Needssalt

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2013, 10:45:41 PM »
NS, do you ever have stretching issues?  I find that the window between undermixed and overmixed with AT is very small.  If you overmix, there's a propensity for toughness, but if you undermix, you can run into drier and wetter areas of the dough, which can cause tearing during the stretch as well as trouble releasing from the peel. Hitting that perfectly mixed target with AT is extremely difficult. This is why I stopped using it.

I would agree that window seems small.  I've defaulted towards the least mixing, and 48+hr cold ferments.  I always try to be quick opening skins (personal challenge), but not aggressive.  I used to give the skin a couple rest periods of like a minute during opening, but lately I've been just going for it.  Tonights doughs were great. 

Here's a  90% All Trumps 10% KAAP, 3%oil, 60% Hydration skin from tonight



Offline Needssalt

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 07:58:25 PM »
Here are the pies from last night,... all 14"

in order....
90% AT 3%oil
100% AT 3%oil
90% AT no oil

all at 60% Hyd.    Good stuff. 

Online JD

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2013, 10:00:17 PM »
Here are the pies from last night,... all 14"

in order....
90% AT 3%oil
100% AT 3%oil
90% AT no oil

all at 60% Hyd.    Good stuff.

Nice looking pies. Which did you prefer?

I'd imagine the "100% AT 3%oil" was very chewy?
Josh

Offline Needssalt

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2013, 10:20:38 PM »
 It had a little more chew, yes.  The fast bakes keep it working though.   We preferred the last pic. the 90%AT :10% KAAP, no oil.  After that, the 1st pic, same blend but with 3% oil, and last the all AT (number 2 with the arugula).   In my head, 10% can't make that much difference, maybe some of it is process, I tried to do the same for all the doughs though.   The crumbs and bottoms looked very similar, That all AT dough had a lighter bottom though. 

Online JD

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2013, 09:53:30 AM »
1. Good

KABF (12.7% protein/unbromated)

2. Better

50/50 AT/KAAP (12.9% protein/50% bromated)

3. Best

Spring King (13.2% protein/100% bromated)
or
Full Strength (12.6% protein/100% bromated)
or any other 12.6-13.2% bromated flour

Scott:

I tried a 50/50 AT/KAAP this weekend and was pretty happy with the results. I think this may be my go-to from now on. Thanks for the advice.
Josh

Offline Needssalt

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Re: Some AT variable doughs
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2013, 02:10:55 PM »
Been a while I guess.  Still been baking,..... I would have to go to my notes for details.  Figured it's Friday,... pics are good on Fridays.




 

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