Donatos Pizza - anyone got a recipe?

[Wazatron]

Hi there Pete and all – well it’s been a while since I’ve been able to try the latest formulation but I was finally able to do some testing this weekend, and I’ve had some crazy problems this time around. I’ve taken a lot of pictures to document everything so hopefully that’ll help as well. With all the pictures I took I went ahead and posted them on my website – I’ll refer to specific numbers as I go through my description below.
http://www.wasylik.com/badza/

The problem I’m having at this point is hydration. In mixing the dough it seems with one drop of water I go from a dry-crumblie dough to an over-moist gooie mess.

The first dough I made I followed your directions and held some water out when mixing, only adding as needed. I ended up adding all but 1/4oz of the 4.04 oz. However, it was too much. The last teaspoon turned the dough from dry to gooie mess almost instantly. I added maybe 1/6th cup of flour to try and counter this, and got it to the point where it was handleable without completely sticking to my fingers.

I got the dough rounded up and into a container for the 2-day cold fermentation. I got a decent rise, but the dough was still very wet and sticky (IMG_2569 & IMG_2570).

I had no problems rolling it out (2571-2573), but it again stuck pretty well to the work surface and I had a hard time “pulling” it up and getting onto the parchment. I did spray down the parchment with PAM as well. You can see that the dough got kind of tangled up in getting it onto the parchment (IMG_2574).

I pulled it back into shape on the disk and cut off the overhang to get a nice pizza round (2575-2577). I then put it into the oven with 6-cups of 200 degree water for a 30 minute proof.

The proofing step basically turned the whole pie into a round slab of glue!!  It was VERY difficult to flip the dough without tearing/stretching the dough – and once I did get it flipped over the parchment was SO stuck to the dough in most places that there was simply no way to peel it off. I was forced to scrap the dough and start over (2578-2579).

I dove in right away to making a new dough. I decided to stick with just 3 oz of water total. However the dough was obviously way way too dry to work with, so I added ¼ oz to the mixing bowl. It was still dry so I added another ¼ oz to the bowl and pow! It was a messy gooie blob again. I could tell already that it would basically give me the same result as before, so I once again started over (2580- 2582).

This time I decided to stay put at 3 and ¼ oz water regardless of how it looked. The dough in the bowl ended up being dry as I expected and never came into its own ball. I had to smoosh it together and work it into a ball before putting it into the container for its fermentation (2583- 2585).

Unfortunately this is where I’m at – this dough is still in the refrigerator, and though it will only be around a 30-hour fermentation I will be cooking it up tonight. I’m hoping that this dough will be easier to work with, from a “sticky” perspective. All I can figure is that the higher egg content plus the high-protein in the four just makes for really good glue. Haha.

I’ll be taking more pictures tonight and will post the results of the cooking as soon as I can. This is turning into a more interesting and challenging experiment at every turn! Haha!

[Pete-zza]

Waz,

I haven't personally tried the most recent Donatos dough clone formulation, but I had no major problems to speak of with the various Donatos dough clones I have made to date as part of the Donatos reverse engineering project. I was hoping that Philip or one of our other members would find time to try the latest dough formulation to see if it can be replicated at normal elevations, before considering modifications to it if warranted by your experiments with it at higher elevations. So, for now, we can't rule out altitude as a possible problem in your case.

However, beyond that, it looks like you are continuing to have problems with your dough make-up and management, including the use of the parchment paper approach and dough proofing, which don't seem to be working. As I indicated previously, I sidestepped those problems by using my microwave unit for proofing purposes and a solid, nonperforated anodized cutter pan for baking the pizza. Pending the results you get with your latest dough batch, I may have to try a new dough batch based on the above formulation, scaling it down to the size of the cutter pan I have been using.

I may even alter the sequencing of ingredients I previously used and recommended to see if there is a better way to accomplish hydration of the flour. With a total of nine ingredients in the dough, this may take some thought as how best to accomplish this. I am even thinking of introducing an autolyse into the dough make-up process. I think with enough experiments under your belt you should ultimately be able to make a usable dough with confidence and certainty, but I am puzzled by the inconsistency in results you have been getting with your recent doughs. We may ultimately have to also consider lowering the total hydration of the dough to see if we can get the dough skin to proof directly on the perforated disk you are using, without having the dough seep into the holes in the disk. Maybe that is how Donatos does it.

Peter

[Wazatron]

Hi Pete - thanks again for all your comments. I really can't thank you enough.

So I was able to cook the pizza tonight but I still need to get the pictures downloaded/posted, which I'll try to do tomorrow.

I tried a new dough management system and am very happy with it!! 

First of all the dough wasn't too sticky to work with. It was tougher to roll out, but not "hard" at all. I went ahead and docked, PAM'd, and Cornmealed the dough right on the counter after rolling it out. Then I flipped it onto the perforated disk (cutting off the "overhang" to get a nice round) and proofed/cooked the pizza on the disk without any more flipping or managing.

It worked great! I had absolutely no problems proofing and cooking on one disk and it eliminated a number of steps that all added the risk of killing the 'za.

The pizza cooked at 425 for just over 8 minutes.

Visually the crust was great - I got nice browning and the bottom had that wonderful Donatos "look" to it.  The cheese did not overcook at this time/temperature and I didn't get an overly "orange" pizza.

While it tasted great, my girlfriend and I both agree that the last dough formulation tasted more like Donatos than this attempt did. However, one really great thing about this attempt was that I was able to get some of that chewy middle layer that I was unable to get in past attempts. There were places of the dough that were rolled out too thin where this layer didn't form well but other parts had the perfect thickness with all discernable Donatos "layers" present. Good stuff! The differences in thickness speak to my weakness with the rolling pin more than anything. Although I'd have to say that the places in the crust that tasted the best were probably thicker than 1/8th inch before getting sauced and cooked.

One other crust note is that I didn't get any chard crispies on the edges. I was quick to pull it out at 8 minutes due to my over-cooking-cheese fear, but I think it should/could go up to 10 to help crust browning. Although the "thinner" sections cooked and browned a lot more than the slightly "thicker" areas of the dough.

So I feel a lot of progress was made tonight. I have a dough management system that I'm very, very happy with (so long as hydration levels aren't too high) and while losing some flavor characteristics we gained some texture characteristics. An interesting position for sure!

I'm anxious for Philip or perhaps other interested members to try this out as well. I can't wait to hear other's thoughts and opinions on our trials!!

Again, thanks a million!!

----------------------------------
Okay, here are the pics: again, easier to post more on my website.
http://www.wasylik.com/donatos/2006-08-20/index.html

[Pete-zza]

Waz,

I'm glad to hear that your last dough batch worked out better. Based on your comments, I have a few of my own and a few questions:

1) You indicated in your earlier post that you used 3 1/4 ounces of water. Is that correct? If so, that would significantly lower the hydration ratio, both before and after accounting for the water in the egg. The hydration aspects of eggs can be tricky because the amount of water in the eggs will vary with age and make it a bit difficult to know its true effects on hydration. It may even be necessary at some point to adjust the hydration of the basic dough formulation to account for the uncertain effects of eggs on hydration, but for now, I won't adjust the Donatos dough clone formulation because it may be that the lower hydration is needed in your case because of elevation issues. I'd rather wait to get feedback from others at lower elevations. However, I can modify the formulation for you personally and your circumstances if you'd like.

2) It does appear from your most recent experiment that the dough can be proofed directly on the disk--and only a single disk--which is important good news and seems to confirm that Donatos proofs directly on disks. It's hard to imagine a different approach for a large-scale commercial operation.

3) You indicated that the latest pizza didn't taste as much like the Donatos pizzas as the last one. Was the crust too "eggy" or was there some other taste difference? Possibly a textural difference? Or because the edges didn't crisp up as much? If the crust was too "eggy", the fomulation can be easily adjusted to lower the amount of eggs slightly.

4) In the last dough formulation, I increased the thickness factor to make it easier for you to roll the dough out to the desired size while allowing for a little bit of dough to be left over for trimming purposes. Was the dough/crust thickness better this time? And did it affect the eating experience in any way? Was it closer to a Donatos crust thickness this time? It is easy enough to adjust the thickness factor again if you would like to do that.

5) I agree that it might have been possible to allow the pizza to remain in the oven for a bit longer to get more crisping at the edges. That is something you will have to experiment with in your particular oven, including rack positioning, temperature and duration of the bake. You might also roll the outer edge of the dough skin to be a bit thinner and bake up faster than the rest of the pizza.

6) I notice your reference to using PAM spray to oil the disk. I don't know if that is what Donatos does, but you might consider using regular oil because of its better overall quality and maybe it will produce a better crust color and flavor.

The photos do look nice and, from the earlier photos of Donatos pizzas, I could have easily been fooled. I think you are getting closer. I hope you will archive the photos at your website.

Peter

[Wazatron]

Hi there Pete. I’ll try to answer your questions as best I can.

1.   Yes, I did use just 3 1/4th oz water for this one. It seemed like anything more just made the dough too sticky to work with effectively. It’d be interesting to see how much elevation plays a part in this!

2.   Yes! I was very happy with this! The less messing with the dough, the better the final product! At least for me!

3.   There were a few differences. The most notable was that the curst seemed more “bland” than previous attempts. This could simply be because I was only able to give it about a 30 hr fermentation instead of 48-50. I hesitate saying it was too eggy, but it could have been. I looked at some pictures of this one compared to my first post of the actual Donatos pie and the air bubbles in the middle-layer of mine are much larger comparatively. The mouth-feel of the dough was still right on, however. The only other real crust issue was the lack of charred crispies on the edges. Perhaps rolling them out as you suggested might help too.

4.   The thickness was very uneven this time – but that’s my fault. As you can see below some parts were too thin and not achieving any of that nice middle-layer, while other parts were too thick and had too many large(ish) bubbles.
One of the problems that I have that causes this is “pulling” up the dough from the counter and getting it onto the disk – this stretches out some parts, making them too thin.

5.   I think I’ll shoot for 10 min. next time and just let it cook.

6.   I’ll definitely try real oil. I had been using pam mostly as an easy-applicator for the cornmeal. But as the dough management procedure gets better I’ll wean myself off of it. Haha

I’ll definitely archive the pictures and keep them up as long as possible. I don’t anticipate the site going anywhere for many many years to come. I will try to post more pictures within posts to it’s not necessary to leave the site, but I don’t like overburdening the threads with a ton of pictures.

I’ll be in Columbus again next week so I’ll be sampling the real-deal again. When I get back I think I’m going to cook two clones, one using this most recent dough and one using the previous formulation and do a side by side blind taste-test.

As usual thanks for the help!!

[Wazatron]

Sorry for the quick follow up post, but in looking over everything a question came to mind that actually baffles me and it’s made me wonder about cooking times and temperatures.

One thing I’ve been unable to replicate at all is the “height” of the pizza. For example, whenever I cook a pizza clone everything kind of flattens out as thing melt/cook/etc. I end up with a very flat disk looking pizza.

One of the biggest flavor and mouth-feel characteristics of Donatos is the “height” of the pizza – it’s not flat at all. All the topping sit-up on the pizza, for lack of a better term, and you really need to open your mouth to take a bite. They never look like a 2-dimensional pizza.

I also was looking at the mushrooms comparatively. Both pies are using fresh sliced mushrooms, yet mine look more cooked and again “flat” as they baked into the cheese. I’d have to say that this “height” characteristic is actually one of the predominant aspects of Donatos that needs to be achieved for a perfect “clone”. It didn’t really hit me until I’ve been able to look at the comparison pictures between my clones and the real thing. I seem to be working in 2D! Haha!
 

[Pete-zza]

Waz,

Now that you have been making the Donatos clones, you should be in a pretty good position to detect the differences between the clones and the real thing when you go to Ohio soon. Please keep notes along with the photos so that we have them available to us when we move on to the next iteration. The key points are flavor (particularly the eggs), texture and thickness. If you are in a position to observe the preparation of the pizzas, that might offer some insights also. Or at least confirm our present practices. As Yogi Berra has noted: You can observe a lot by just watching.

I think the blandness in the crust may have been because we increased the amount of egg without changing the salt. We might nudge up the amount of salt next time. Maybe to 1.8%. That will still keep the salt in the right place in the ingredients pecking order.

The crust "height" issue may have a few possible explanations. It might be the use of bromated flour. This is a possibility that has been discussed before and may be something you may want to revisit. I don't believe that Donatos pre-bakes the crusts before adding the sauce, cheese and toppings, but pre-baking the crust will allow the crust to rise unfettered by the weight of cheeses and toppings and develop a thickness that will remain even after adding the sauce, cheese and toppings. Also, since the toppings won't cook as long as a result, they won't look as though they were cooked as long, as you noted, for example, with respect to the mushrooms. And the toppings might not "sink" into the cheese as much. In a home oven environment, pre-baking the docked crust should only take a couple of minutes-- just until the crust turns a light brown in color. Adding the sauce, cheese and toppings later should also allow more time for the crust to bake and develop a crispy characteristic.

As a further comment on dough thickness and rolling techniques, when I roll out a dough ball to make a thin skin I use a wooden tapered French-style rolling pin. I originally bought it to roll out pie dough after reading that it was Julia Child's favorite rolling pin among the many she owned. I think it gives greater control over the rolling process. I roll the dough out just as I do a pie dough, turning the dough skin by 90-degree steps as I roll it out, to achieve and maintain a uniform thickness. In your case, in order to prevent the thickness from changing as you lift the docked dough skin onto the disk (oiled and with the cornmeal), you might lightly but uniformly dust the top of the skin with a bit of flour and gently fold the skin in half or in quarters, place the folded skin on the disk, and then unfold. This is the same technique I use for fitting a pie dough into a baking dish. The risk is that the skin can stick on itself if you don't use enough dusting flour to prevent this. An alternative approach is to roll out the dough on a Silpat-type surface and, after trimming the skin to size, oil it and add the cornmeal, put the disk on the trimmed-out skin, and flip the disk over, just as you did when you used the parchment paper. Maybe this approach will work better than the parchment paper.

Peter

[marty]

Do you 100% feel eggs are in this recipe?

Or could it be a powder egg white?

Ive skipped through your threads and might have missed this but do they come as dough balls or already ran though a sheeter?

Marty

[Pete-zza]

Marty,

The ingredients list as provided in an earlier post says eggs, and the Donatos founder says eggs also. And Wazatron says he can taste the eggs in a Donatos crust. I am fairly confindent that the eggs are pasteurized. The Donatos dough apparently is delivered from a commissary to stores in frozen form. I'm not sure whether the dough is sheeted and cut into skins before freezing or whether frozen dough balls are delivered to stores and thawed and processed there into skins. We have been working with fresh doughs, not frozen, and we have eliminated all of the chemicals recited in the ingredients list that are used as preservatives, conditioners, etc.

Peter

[marty]

Peter,

Thanks for the reply.. I will take some time to read all the threads to this.

Well the reason I asked if the dough comes pre sheeted or balls, is because I have had dough producers send me the same formula in both forms and the pre sheeted seemed not to rise as much in the end. Even if I sheeted the balls thinner than what they did.
It also seemed a little more crispier.

Eggs, are you thinking they are whole or just the whites?

Thanks,

Marty

[Pete-zza]

Marty,

I think the pieces will better fall into place if you do read the posts in this thread. I have found that you have to search for clues like Sherlock Holmes to try to piece together the complete picture.

With a highly commercialized dough product such as Donatos uses, and which can change at any moment, it's hard to know exactly what is in a Donatos dough at the moment. However, the list of ingredients that Wazatron set forth in Reply 12 came from Donatos itself. And, as you will note, it includes eggs. Jim Grote, the founder of Donatos and the current CEO, for a long time made a point of the dough recipe being an old family recipe (he talked about his mother making the dough in her kitchen) that included eggs and milk. And, for some time, this point was emphasized even at the Donatos website and in other promotional materials. However, when I tried to track down the eggs and milk quote today at the Donatos website, I could not find it. So, Grote and Donatos may be deemphasizing the eggs and milk part of the old family story. That would make sense if you are trying to grow the business and are trying to position yourself among the giants of the retail pizza industry rather than tying yourself to the past. Of course, it could also mean that Donatos is no longer using eggs and milk or are in the process of phasing them out. If so, I suspect that Wazatron, with his highly developed Donatos pizza palate, should be able to tell when he next visits Donatos on his upcoming trip.

However, if eggs are indeed being currently used, and if the ingredients list is to be believed, then I believe the eggs are whole eggs, most likely in pasteurized form because of potential cross-contamination and other health-related issues. Also, if only egg whites were being used, then I believe that governmental regulations would require that egg whites be specifically listed. Otherwise, the consumer, especially one with health (e.g., allergies) or nutrition concerns, would not be able to know whether there may be a problem in using the product.

As far as the form of frozen dough is concerned, the early writings on Donatos said that the dough was rolled at a commissary and delivered frozen to the individual stores. That could well have changed and maybe frozen skins are now being used at the local store level. For our purposes, of course, it doesn't matter. Wazatron and others will be using fresh dough and everything will be done in a home setting, including trying to replicate the individual steps that go into making a skin, docking and proofing it, and using a perforated disk to bake the pizza on.

Peter

[marty]

Peter,

Wow, that is a lot of egg in one batch. for a large batch of dough (25lb) your looking at like 2 dozen eggs.

P.S. I did want to thank you for you knowledge and researce you do. I read alot of your post and must say has helped. 

Ive read your thread on donatos Im from ohio and live about 45min from one. The next time i'm by one I will stop so I can try to give some contribution.

Thanks,
Marty

[Pete-zza]

Thanks, Marty.

You are just about right on the amount of eggs for 25 lbs. of dough. It would be a bit over 2 dozen large eggs. I didn't think about it earlier, but I suppose the eggs could be dried eggs. That would fit the commercial process better.

I do occasionally see dough recipes that call for eggs but they are quite rare. They are usually old recipes that were handed down from a family member or from one pizza operator to a new operator. Tom Lehmann highly discourages use of fresh shell eggs, as well as milk products, in a commercial setting. Maybe Donatos is rethinking their use.

Peter

[marty]

Peter,

Thats why I was asking if your findings were 100% sure they were using eggs or powdered eggs.

I went to the store to see about pasteurized eggs and for 12oz it cost me nearly $3.00
and for a 25 lb. of flour batch it would take over 3 of them. Thats shoots your dough cost through the roof as a pizza company point of view.

I own a small pizza shop and like to experiment all the time to make that perfect crust

I have always want to add egg to our crust. But I have met with  tom lehmann a few times and he has steered me away from it.

That doesnt mean I dont want to atleast try it to see

I will try and see what happens and let you know,
Thanks,
Marty

[Pete-zza]

Marty,

What you say makes a lot of sense. Maybe back in the old days when real eggs and milk were used, the Grote family could have gotten some marketing mileage out of that. But if they are now using dried eggs and dried milk and dried dairy whey, that doesn't sound especially yummy to me. I think I would try to hide that from the public.

I have found experimenting with eggs in a pizza dough quite interesting. It's a good way to learn how eggs change the chemistry of the dough as well as the handling characteristics.

Peter

[Wazatron]

Hi guys - I was just able to get back online and saw your discussion here. For what it's worth I thought I'd add what I could.

I grew up in Ohio so have been pretty familiar with Donatos for many years. While it's very true I haven't seen "egg" used in their marketing for a long time, they are always very quick to point out that they use high-quality ingredients with the same recipe they've used for eons, blah blah blah. Even Grote seems to never miss an opportunity to talk about how the same dough, sauce, and sausage recipes are just like they were back in his first kitchen.

Considering this aspect of their marketing plus the fact that the dough has such a unique (at least in my opinion) flavor and texture characteristic (yes, you can taste egg! ) I can't imagine how they'd be able to get away from using egg altogether.

As for expense, Donatos (relatively speaking) has always been a rather expensive pizza. They even acknowledge this with the "you get what you pay for" mentality, and again cite their high-quality crust and fresh edge-to-edge toppings. And of course, I tend to agree - I'd rather pay $15 for a large Donatos pizza than $10 for a Dominos any day of the week and twice on Sundays. haha.

What you guys are talking about is really interesting to me - how could they continue to grow and "mass market" the product without completely leaving behind their roots are drastically altering their product?

Good stuff! And yep I'll be eating at Donatos again next week! Can't wait!

[marty]

Waz,

You are right about the price
They are high on the cost.

But if what you are saying is true, and I belive you are right. if they are listing their ingredients by volume, then there would have to be alot of egg if it is listed in front of oil.
I just would have to think it to be powder not real eggs.

I make my dough in 25lb flour batches I would have to use around 2.5lbs of eggs to go by your numbers. 
BUT that is not out of the question if egg is in front of the oil..Most recipes call for atlest a lb of oil.

its a friday night and we are too busy for me to try a batch of dough. But tomorrow I will.

Thanks,
Marty

[Pete-zza]

Waz,

At least the Donatos dough clone formulation you have been using contains food ingredients and no preservatives, conditioners or additives. That doesn't mean I didn't research the other ingredients that are used by Donatos in its doughs. I'm always interested in what things are used for, and the Donatos ingredient list was no exception.

The lecithin is the one Donatos dough ingredient you have not used that comes closest to being a food. It is derived from soybeans and is a common ingredient in doughs for baked goods. It is a multi-faceted product. For example, it acts as an emulsifier to finely disperse water and oil (which is perhaps why it is combined with the soybean oil), it is a fat substitute, it strengthens the dough, it is an anti-oxidant (which helps keep the oil from going rancid or producing off-flavors), and helps improve the volume, crumb structure and tenderness of the crust. Moreover, it helps form a film around the yeast particles in frozen dough, thus protecting the yeast particles from cold damage. I have purchased lecithin from King Arthur and used it before in doughs, both bread and pizza. Maybe in a future Donatos clone dough I will try using a bit. 

The maltodextrin is a hydrolyzed starch in the form of a non-sweet sugar that can feed the yeast. It also acts as a filler and thickener. Moreover, it acts as a freeze control agent to help prevent crystallization in frozen dough. The sorbic acid is a reducing agent that improves dough machinability and reduces resting times by increasing dough extensibility. This makes the dough easier to handle. I suspect that it is combined with the soybean oil because it is soluble in oil. TBHQ (Tertiary-Butyl Hydroquinone) is strictly an anti-oxidant to protect the soybean oil from oxidation. Modified food starch is a pre-cooked form of starch that is used as a thickener. It is widely used in baked goods, including pizza dough. Sodium metabisulfite is a dough conditioner, much like l-cysteine, that helps the dough relax so that it can be put through a sheeter and not spring back or shrink. It is a common ingredient for laminated doughs that are folded and put through sheeters.

I think you can see that you don't need the above ingredients to make a high quality Donatos dough clone, especially when you are making fresh dough that doesn't require adulteration by the above ingredients and you use sufficient fermentation to create a dough that will be easy to roll out and shape. In fact, it's possible that your final product will be better than Donatos, and a more natural product at that.

Peter

[Wazatron]

Hi all - just checking in from Columbus. I was able to snag some Donatos yesterday and I got a few nuggets of information.

I was able to confirm that they cook them on perforrated disks pretty much just like the one I've been using in my experiments. Also (not really confirming this I guess) they did use a huge e-flow oven.

I asked the guy how long it takes to cook the pizza, from putting it in the oven on one side to coming out the other and he said about 7 minutes.

He didn't seem 100% confident in that, but answered pretty quickly to where I believe he's gotta be right on - plus I got my pizza in under 15 min, so add saucing/topping the za to the cooking time (plus cutting, boxing, etc) I think a 10 minute cook time really is too long. 7 minutes would also attribute to the mushrooms not looking "overcooked" as mine do and would keep the toppings from "sinking" into the cheese as much as well.

Based on that, do you think a 7 min. bake at 450 would be a good thing to try?

Also just a note of interest - they have just come out with a new square Ciabata Bread Pizza that actually looks really good. I might have to try it before I leave... They do also have a thick-crust pizza, which I think is really good as well, but I don't have any desire to replicate it (at least not until I've got the original thin crust down!).

Thanks all!

[marty]

Waz,

I cook basically the same way donatos does from the sound of it, including the corn meal. Just no egg.
I have lincoln ovens I use a proofing cabinet and I cook for about 7 1/2 min at 445. I have screens and disk like the one you showed.
I like the way they cook but they stay hot longer after the cook. Hot to the hands
Screens we can grab with our hands right after we remove the pizzas.

As far as a home oven it will be different I believe.

I tried close to your recipe just to see. I was quite surprised that I used alot more oil and sugar than I normally do and had less rise. Not sure why maybe peter might know that answer.

Thanks,
Marty