Author Topic: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )  (Read 4237 times)

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Offline Saucytony

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Hello to all my experienced pizzaiolos

I am not a computer savy person so please forgive me for mis spellings or blabber of words. I have been re searching Neapolitan pies for the last year and trying to narrow down the playing field on ingredients. We are opening a mobile pizza truck in San Jose Ca in the next coming months. A friend had recommend me to this site for any questions and concerns I may have. This forum is great and has already done wonders compared to countless (endless) hours of research on the internet. So I have joined and now looking for your help. We have purchased our WFO and looking to get or practice in. Our walls are around 900-950 floor around 850-900 and hot spot (fire) around 1000 degrees.

DOUGH
My goal is to get the most authentic dough possible. A nice thin even layer of crispy crust on bottom, beautiful charred leapording and a bubbly crisp crust with a slight chew. Please explain further if i am wrong or am missing something. Any attached links would be much appreciated. I have chosen to go with TXCraig1 recipe

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047

Now i am just looking for an effecting fermenting process for Neapolitan dough only. I have a wine fridge to keep temp exact.


SAUCE
Im keeping it simple with this. Tomatoes and Mediterranean sea salt. The question is what are the best tomatoes. I want whole tomatoes with least amount of pulp as possible. I could always drain it if necessary.

Here are my list of tomatoes please help me with your suggestions Possibly mis spelled
1. Strianese
2. Nutrilla
3. Ninua
4. Rega
5. Colarita
6. Centro Italian
7. Marzano

Which one?



Thank you all for your help and I will keep you posted and soon as we begin. Need to narrow our ideas down first   ;D  so complicating :-\










Online TXCraig1

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2013, 10:01:00 PM »
Cento Italian (35oz can) hands down. As good or better quality at less than half the price.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline parallei

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2013, 10:56:33 PM »
Cento Italian (35oz can) hands down. As good or better quality at less than half the price.

+1

In my case, not the Cento D.O.P, just the "Product of Italy".

I think Craig feels the same.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2013, 11:03:01 PM »
Make a couple 3 hundred pies, you will figure it out.

Offline parallei

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2013, 11:07:44 PM »
Make a couple 3 hundred pies, you will figure it out.

That's good to know.  I only have 268 pies or so to go!

Online jeff v

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2013, 11:11:14 PM »
Make a couple 3 hundred pies, you will figure it out.

It is funny how man people forget or want to skip that step. Me included sometimes. ;D
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.

Offline Saucytony

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2013, 02:58:46 AM »
I agree, I will definitely need to make at least 300-500 pies to perfect the technique however this is why im on this site in the first place to learn from the experienced ones. But wasting my time with useless tips from others that dont know what they are doing is not my strategy. I could make 10,000 pies and never figure it out.

If you are taught by the best using the best knowledge and techniques possible eventually the product will speak for itself.

Thank you for the advice on the tomatoes much appreciated.

Offline Saucytony

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2013, 03:03:00 AM »
Stupid question.

I have been reviewing your pizza formula PMC

What does the Size and Q (quantity?) mean?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE#gid=0

Online TXCraig1

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2013, 08:50:01 AM »
Stupid question.

I have been reviewing your pizza formula PMC

What does the Size and Q (quantity?) mean?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE#gid=0

Size is the desired dough ball weight in grams. Q is the number of dough balls you want to produce. Waste is how much dough is stuck in the bowl after mixing. It will probably be 1-2%.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline Saucytony

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2013, 01:59:55 PM »
Cento Italian (35oz can) hands down. As good or better quality at less than half the price.


I just wanted to confirm these are the tomatoes you recommend? There are so many options of the same can and just needed some clarification.

Thanks


http://www.amazon.com/Cento-Imported-Italian-Tomatoes-35-Ounce/dp/B002C4C67C/?tag=pizzamaking-20

Online TXCraig1

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2013, 02:08:18 PM »

I just wanted to confirm these are the tomatoes you recommend? There are so many options of the same can and just needed some clarification.

Thanks


http://www.amazon.com/Cento-Imported-Italian-Tomatoes-35-Ounce/dp/B002C4C67C/?tag=pizzamaking-20

Yes, that is them. I'd be surprised if you can't find them locally as well. They have pretty good distribution.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Saucytony

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2013, 07:57:28 PM »
Size is the desired dough ball weight in grams. Q is the number of dough balls you want to produce. Waste is how much dough is stuck in the bowl after mixing. It will probably be 1-2%.

I am ordering my 00 caputo flour today and wondering which color bag you recommend?

Blue or Red or mix?

What is the difference between the 2?

Thanks for the advice.

Offline parallei

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2013, 08:46:31 PM »
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7191.msg62063.html#msg62063

You should try the search function.  It will save you a bunch of time. 

Offline Saucytony

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 08:49:02 PM »
I have

Offline Saucytony

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 08:50:51 PM »
Thank you for the link it is hard to search these terms. Too much stuff pops up

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2013, 09:54:57 PM »
Those Centos get my vote too, or the Classico crushed from Walmart.  You should also try the service options, 7-11 tomatoes for example.

Offline La Sera

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2013, 11:08:12 PM »
Blue (Pizzeria type) is the easiest because you use it as is. No mixing.

You'll have to mix the red with something else, so that means more space, more decisions, more inventory, many, many more pies to make until you find the mixture you want, etc.


Online TXCraig1

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2013, 12:05:26 AM »
There is more than one Caputo in a red bag. The red 1kg "chef's" 00 is the same as the 25kg blue pizzeria flour, but there is also 25kg Caputo 00 Rinforzato which has a higher W and also comes in a red bag.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Saucytony

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2013, 09:54:54 AM »
There is more than one Caputo in a red bag. The red 1kg "chef's" 00 is the same as the 25kg blue pizzeria flour, but there is also 25kg Caputo 00 Rinforzato which has a higher W and also comes in a red bag.


Well after researching this site and other for over 3 hours it has left me with more questions than answers.

Questions

1. What EXACT caputo 00" flour do you recommend and why ( a link/pic would be nice )

2. What is the difference between Red and Blue Caputo 00"
Only thing I have heard or found just as " La Sera" has said is that the red needs to be mixed. Also "tlcraig" stated that the red "chefs flour" is the same as the blue pizzeria flour. Why sell different kinds if the same. besides the price?

3. Rinforzato which has a higher W, what does that mean exactly? why choose this one ( newbie, not hip to the lingo yet )

4. If it is the red choice ( Rinforzato or chefs flour ) does it need to be mixed and if so with what



All suggestions with explanations is suggested.

Thank you to all.


« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 10:02:09 AM by Saucytony »

Offline La Sera

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2013, 12:02:27 PM »
I apologize for any confusion. I forgot about the packaging idiocy.

My suggestion remains the same.


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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2013, 12:24:12 PM »
1. What EXACT caputo 00" flour do you recommend and why ( a link/pic would be nice )

Caputo Pizzeria which can be purchased in a 25kg blue bag that says “PIZZERIA” or in a 1kg red bag that says “The Chef’s Flour”

http://www.molinocaputo.it//index.php?module=ecommerce&modulePage=dettaglio&id=5
http://www.molinocaputo.it//index.php?module=ecommerce&modulePage=dettaglio&id=19


Quote
2. What is the difference between Red and Blue Caputo 00"
Only thing I have heard or found just as " La Sera" has said is that the red needs to be mixed.


In this case, “red” refers to Caputo ‘00’ Rinforzato. We shouldn’t refer to Caputo as red or blue, we should call it Pizzeria or Rinforzato (or whatever other variety we are talking about). Rinforzato: http://www.molinocaputo.it//index.php?module=ecommerce&modulePage=dettaglio&id=11

Flour is a lot more complicated than simply the protein% and the milling (such as ‘00’). There are a whole host of rheological properties – most of which are well beyond the scope of discussion here.

To understand the difference between Pizzeria and Rinforzato, realize that all protein in flour is not the same. When it comes to protein, there is quantity and quality. “Higher quality” proteins are stronger. Two flours with the same protein quantity (%) may perform very differently. A flour’s “W” is a measurement of how strong it is – the breaking strength of the dough in a controlled experiment. You can read more about it here: http://publications.hgca.com/publications/documents/exports/BCE_Chopin_Alveograph_Guide.pdf

Rinforzato is English means reinforced. As the name implies, it is a stronger flour meaning it has a higher “W.”  Rinforzato is sometimes blended with another flour such as Pizzeria. This would be done to increase the strength of the flour to something stronger than Pizzeria but not as strong as Rinforzato, but it is not necessary per se. For very long fermentations (likely cold) you might want to use straight Rinforzato.

Quote
Also "tlcraig" stated that the red "chefs flour" is the same as the blue pizzeria flour. Why sell different kinds if the same. besides the price?

It’s just marketing – the 1kg red “Chef’s” bag is a retail product whereas the 25kg blue Pizzeria bag is a foodservice product.

Quote
3. Rinforzato which has a higher W, what does that mean exactly? why choose this one ( newbie, not hip to the lingo yet )

See above.

Quote
4. If it is the red choice ( Rinforzato or chefs flour ) does it need to be mixed and if so with what
 

I’d be very surprised if straight Caputo Pizzeria would not meet all your needs.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline Pulcinella

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2013, 07:38:41 PM »
There is more than one Caputo in a red bag. The red 1kg "chef's" 00 is the same as the 25kg blue pizzeria flour, but there is also 25kg Caputo 00 Rinforzato which has a higher W and also comes in a red bag.

Craig are you sure Rinforzato has a higher "W" factor than Pizzeria flour? Captuo's data show the "W" for both as "280-320". Also the data show both having "12.5%" protein. the 12.5% protein in Rinforzato and Pizzeria flour isn't strictly just about gluten making proteins. Correct me if I'm wrong, The 12.5% presents both gluten & non-gluten making proteins which include  protein based enzymes. The QUALITY of the portion of the 12.5% set aside for gluten making proteins makes a huge difference as you or somebody else pointed out.  I use Rinforzato regularly in summers <<when hot>> using room temperature. Caputo website disagrees but IMHO Rinforzato results in mediocre napoletana dough when fermented in fridge. It already requires a long time of warm fermentation as it is. Using several days of cold fermentation doesn't make sense <<to me>>. In Naples I was told that Rinforzato was a main flour for pizza napoletana long before Caputo Pizzeria flour <<requiring less warm fermentation time>> was introduced to the market. Rinfozato flour still has many useful applications

Online TXCraig1

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2013, 10:58:22 PM »
Craig are you sure Rinforzato has a higher "W" factor than Pizzeria flour? Captuo's data show the "W" for both as "280-320". Also the data show both having "12.5%" protein. the 12.5% protein in Rinforzato and Pizzeria flour isn't strictly just about gluten making proteins. Correct me if I'm wrong, The 12.5% presents both gluten & non-gluten making proteins which include  protein based enzymes. The QUALITY of the portion of the 12.5% set aside for gluten making proteins makes a huge difference as you or somebody else pointed out.  I use Rinforzato regularly in summers <<when hot>> using room temperature. Caputo website disagrees but IMHO Rinforzato results in mediocre napoletana dough when fermented in fridge. It already requires a long time of warm fermentation as it is. Using several days of cold fermentation doesn't make sense <<to me>>. In Naples I was told that Rinforzato was a main flour for pizza napoletana long before Caputo Pizzeria flour <<requiring less warm fermentation time>> was introduced to the market. Rinfozato flour still has many useful applications

I don't know. I've seen the sheets you're referring to. I've also seen the numbers shown differently as in the link above. It makes no sense to me that they would be the same.  I've never been able to get a spec sheet from the Caputo website. Have you been able to get them/see them there? If so, how are you doing it? When I click on the spec links, nothing happens.
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Offline Pulcinella

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Re: How to create an authentic Neapolitan pie ( sauce, dough, toppings )
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2013, 11:45:34 PM »
I don't know. I've seen the sheets you're referring to. I've also seen the numbers shown differently as in the link above. It makes no sense to me that they would be the same.  I've never been able to get a spec sheet from the Caputo website. Have you been able to get them/see them there? If so, how are you doing it? When I click on the spec links, nothing happens.

I have the official caputo spec sheets which Omid emailed me. but I don't know how to upload them here. I'll ask him to do it if possible. He was the one who actually introduced me to Rinforzato flour.