Author Topic: Giving Sicilian Style a shot  (Read 9097 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline foodblogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
  • Favorite Chain Pizza - Gino's East
    • My Food Blog
Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« on: February 22, 2006, 11:53:05 AM »
I am planning on making a Sicilian style pizza this weekend.  In order for this to work like I want it to, my square pan has to arrive in time from pizzatools.com.  I am keeping my fingers crossed, but if that doesn't work I might have to make it in a 14 inch round pan.  I'll have to cut back the dough ball just a bit but it'll have to work.

I decided to do a hybrid dough based on a bunch of the doughs found in the Sicilian portion of the forum.  I am hesitant to use a 100% semolina formulation, so I decided to use a blend of King Arthur All-Purpose and semolina.  I also liked the idea of using milk found in this thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,745.0.html

The I Carusi version seen in that thread uses milk and water.  I also really like the way Jimbob's pizza looked.  It can be seen in this thread:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1535.0.html

To get Jimbob's look I am going to have a decent amount of olive oil in the bottom of the pan.

I am also taking Pizzanapoletana's advice and making a 75% hydration dough.  You can see his thread here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1690.msg15317.html#msg15317

I also decided to include a pre-fermentation step which Pizzanapoletana talked about in this post:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1073.msg9752.html#msg9752

I am going to use 20% of my dough weight as the pre-ferment.
In the final mixing I am going to use an autolyse to hydrate the remaining flour.  I plan to use pftaylor's dough preparation steps for pizza raquel which includes rests and an autolyse.  I don't have any particular reason for doing that other than I am in love with that process.  You can see the method here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg11359.html#msg11359

Obviously my shaping will have to be different than what he uses.  It sounds a little thick to me, but I am going to use a thickness factor of 0.13.

Of course I recognize that my pizza will in no way be an 'authentic' Sicilian pizza, but rather a version of Sicilian pizza that I can make in my house using what I consider the best bits of information from pizzamaking.com.

I haven't worked out the ingredient weights yet, but here is the baker's formula I intend to use:

Hybrid Sicilian Dough
King Arthur All Purpose Flour 100%
Fine Semolina Flour                25%
Water                                     50%
Whole Milk                              25%
Olive Oil                                  5%
Salt                                         2.5%
Sugar                                      1%
IDY                                          0.75%

The preferment will be 20% of the dough weight and made up of 50%flour and 50% water with about half the yeast.  I'll let the preferment go at room temp for 48 hours.  After I finish processing the dough I'll put it in the fridge for 24 hours.  I'll post results as they become available.
 


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2006, 12:40:12 PM »
foodblogger,

I had to smile when I read your post since I have often tried the same approach of trying to "design" a pizza dough using a combination of "best ideas" I picked up on the forum and elsewhere. To me, it seemed like I was putting All Stars on the field at every position, and I would get optimum results in all respects. Usually the results were not what I expected and usually a disappointment. To say the least, it was most humbling and, having gone through this several times, I have concluded that the "best ideas" approach seems to work better on paper than in real life, at least in my case. Now my approach is to find a good basic recipe and think about how I might improve it, going one step at a time, and assessing the results after each new change.

So, it is with great interest that I await your results :).

Peter

Offline 007bond-jb

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 169
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Baton Rouge
  • I Love Pizza & Beer
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2006, 11:05:15 AM »
I use the same %s as you are going to use accept no milk & more olive oil Look in this section under 007 you will see some photos

Offline foodblogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
  • Favorite Chain Pizza - Gino's East
    • My Food Blog
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2006, 01:57:22 PM »
Bond -
Couple of questions.  First, what is your favorite James Bond film?
Second, did you use oil in the bottom of your pan and if so how much?
Finally, how long, at what temperature, and what position in the oven did you bake your pizza?  Sorry if I missed that info in your posts.  I'm planning on pouring over your posts a little bit this afterlunch.

PS - your hands are HUGE

Offline foodblogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
  • Favorite Chain Pizza - Gino's East
    • My Food Blog
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2006, 10:45:42 AM »
I made a Sicilian according to the above baker's formula this weekend.  I have mixed results to report.  The good news is that the pizza was delicious.  The crust was crispy on the bottom with a very tender crumb.  Next to the edges of the pan, where it wasn't weighed down by toppings, the crust was even a little bit open.  Here is a photo of the pie as it came out of the oven.

Offline foodblogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
  • Favorite Chain Pizza - Gino's East
    • My Food Blog
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2006, 10:46:39 AM »
The bottom turned out exactly like I wanted it - like Jimbob's pizza.

Offline foodblogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
  • Favorite Chain Pizza - Gino's East
    • My Food Blog
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2006, 10:47:23 AM »
Here is a photo of the rim.

Offline foodblogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
  • Favorite Chain Pizza - Gino's East
    • My Food Blog
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2006, 10:53:50 AM »
Now for the mixed news.  The dough was very very very difficult to work with.  It was more like the blob that ate New York than a dough ball.  It stuck to everything.  There was no way I could shape this thing on a counter without flouring everything in sight.  I instead put the dough straight into the oiled pan and pressed it out to the edges.  In the process some of the oil from the bottom of the pan got onto the dough, which isn't a bad thing, but I want control over when that happens.  The oil getting on top of the dough shouldn't be an accidental/inevitable thing, it should be there because I want it to be.  If I continue with this formulation I am going to have to tweak the hydration level down a bit.  I am used to working with very wet doughs, but this was ridiculous.  I have made 80% doughs that were easier to deal with.

Next weekend I am going to try pizzanapoletana's recipe located here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1690.msg15317.html#msg15317

« Last Edit: February 27, 2006, 11:18:22 AM by foodblogger »

Offline foodblogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
  • Favorite Chain Pizza - Gino's East
    • My Food Blog
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2006, 01:30:50 PM »
This weekend I am planning on making another Sicilian.  Unfortunately I won't have enough time to do Pizzanapoletana's recipe.  It calls for 10-11 hours in the fridge followed by 30-45 minutes mixing followed by a 1 to 2 hour room temp rise.  Do to a number of circumstances beyond my control, I have about 8 hours on Sunday to come up with a completed pie.  With that in mind, I am going to use my original recipe and tweak the hyrdration percentage down 5%.  Authentic Sicilian dough may have a hydration % of 75% but I don't think I am going to be able to make it work.  I am lowering the salt by .25% because I need this thing to ferment nicely in the specified time period.

The new formula will be:

King Arthur All Purpose Flour 100%
Fine Semolina Flour                25%
Water                                     45%
Whole Milk                              25%
Olive Oil                                  5%
Salt                                         2.25%
Sugar                                      1%
IDY                                          0.75%

For a thickness factor of .13 in my 14X14 inch pan -

Flour         354 g
Semolina   89 g
Water       159 g
Milk           89 g
Oil             18 g
Salt            8 g
sugar         4 g
IDY             4 g

I'm planning on doing a room temperature poolish so I will have to leave the milk out and add it later.  I'm not sure if it would spoil in 8 hours but I'm not looking to take a chance.  So processing would be as follows:

1)  Combine 159 g flour and 159 g water in bowl.  Add 4 g yeast, 4 g sugar and 8 g salt.  Stir using paddle attachment of Kitchenaid until well combined and not lumpy.
2)  Let the mixture ferment on the counter, covered, for 6 hours.
3)  To the poolish add the semolina, oil and milk.  Stir using the paddle attachment until well combined.
4)  Using the dough hook and the Kitchenaid on stir setting, gradually add the remaining 195 grams of flour over 5 minutes.
5)  Knead dough using dough hook at a speed halfway between 2 and 3 for 5 minutes.
6)  Let the dough rest 15 minutes, then shape into a ball and let rise, covered for an hour and a half or until doubled in size.

I'll be baking this badboy on the bottom rack at 450.  The last time it took about 20 minutes for the pie to look done.  I judged it by lifting up one corner and looking at the bottom of the crust.


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2006, 02:24:11 PM »
foodblogger,

I notice your reference to "poolish". As you may know, a classical poolish includes no salt, and usually no sugar. Also, the amount of yeast used in the poolish is usually determined by the intended fermentation time. For example, for a classical poolish and a 7-8 hour fermentation time, bakers will use around 0.25% IDY. This is based on a water temperature of 60 degrees F and a room temperature of 80-85 degrees F. Obviously, your room temperature won't be that high, but given that a 15 degrees temperature differential will halve the fermentation rate, doubling the amount of IDY would get you to around 0.50%. That is, if my analysis and math are right :). The amount of IDY you indicated comes to 1.1% (4 g. over 354 g.). The objective of controlling the amount of yeast used is to be sure that the right acidic behavior takes place in the poolish, which can affect the flavor of the finished crust.

Peter


Offline foodblogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
  • Favorite Chain Pizza - Gino's East
    • My Food Blog
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2006, 03:51:45 PM »
pete-zza:
Thanks a ton for the input.  It is indeed a 'modified' poolish.    The yeast % is a bit off and thanks for pointing that out.  When I originally calculated the amount I figured that 1% of 354 is 3.5.  I figured I would just round up to the nearest gram, but when I go back through and actually calculate it, the nearest gram would be 3g.  Maybe I will re work this a bit so that it can be properly called a 'poolish.'  Thanks again for your advice.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 04:20:11 PM by foodblogger »

Offline foodblogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
  • Favorite Chain Pizza - Gino's East
    • My Food Blog
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2006, 04:55:57 PM »
OK confession time.  I need someone like Pete-zza around to keep me honest.  My modified poolish was just me being lazy.  I'm going to modify things a bit so that I use an actual poolish and not a modification.  Baking involves a lot of ritual and tradition and it is important to respect both.  I need to stop being lazy and do things the right way.

The new formula will be:

King Arthur All Purpose Flour 100%
Fine Semolina Flour                25%
Water                                     45%
Whole Milk                              25%
Olive Oil                                  5%
Salt                                         2.25%
Sugar                                      1%
IDY                                          0.5%

For a thickness factor of .13 in my 14X14 inch pan -

Flour         354 g
Semolina   89 g
Water       159 g
Milk           89 g
Oil             18 g
Salt            8 g
sugar         4 g
IDY             2 g  (rounded up from 1.7g, my scale only works in grams)


1)  Combine 159 g flour and 159 g water in bowl.  Add 2 g yeast.  Stir using paddle attachment of Kitchenaid until well combined and not lumpy.
2)  Let the mixture ferment on the counter, covered, for 6 hours.
3)  To the poolish add the semolina, milk, sugar and salt.  Stir using the paddle attachment until well combined.
4)  Using the dough hook and the Kitchenaid on stir setting, gradually add the remaining 195 grams of flour over 5 minutes.  After flour is combined add the oil and mix until combined.
5)  Knead dough using dough hook at a speed halfway between 2 and 3 for 5 minutes.
6)  Let the dough rest 15 minutes, then shape into a ball and let rise, covered for an hour and a half or until doubled in size.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2006, 05:52:09 PM »
foodblogger,

LOL ;D.

I am a big fan of lazy, and I have learned that one of the best way to achieve that exalted status is to learn how professionals (in this case, artisanal bakers) do things. Their businesses depend on the success of their products, so they have learned what works best. I can't live long enough to be able to learn on my own what they know about poolishes, bigas, sponges and other esoterica and are willing to share their best knowledge with me. This spares me having to do endless experiments and going down a lot of dead ends trying to reinvent the wheel. That's the part of lazy I like best :).

Peter

Offline foodblogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
  • Favorite Chain Pizza - Gino's East
    • My Food Blog
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2006, 06:00:40 PM »
True, very very true.  Lazy in the short run makes more trouble in the long run.  Thanks for keeping me honest.

Offline foodblogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
  • Favorite Chain Pizza - Gino's East
    • My Food Blog
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2006, 01:37:11 PM »
I made a Sicilian yesterday according to the above instructions.  It turned out very well.  The dough was easier to work and stretched nicely.  Here are some photos.

Offline foodblogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
  • Favorite Chain Pizza - Gino's East
    • My Food Blog
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2006, 01:38:08 PM »
And here is the bottom of a slice.

Offline pizza king

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 31
  • Location: Boston MA
  • Sal's Rules
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2006, 07:25:12 AM »
when you make it should cook the sauce and the dough and whatever other fixing you putting on it for atleast ten minutes before adding the cheese ... you keep burning the cheese but the dough looks beautiful

Offline foodblogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 236
  • Favorite Chain Pizza - Gino's East
    • My Food Blog
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2006, 09:26:39 AM »
When I bake these things I put the pie on the bottom rack with the oven heated to 450 degrees.  I have a baking stone on a rack 7.5 inches above the pizza to provide some heat from the top.  If you were wanting to duplicate this pizza but you don't want browning of your cheese, you could just omit the top stone.  I like a little browning of the cheese but its not for everyone.

Alternatively you could try lowering the temperature of the oven AND omitting the stone.  I'm not sure what you would lower it to but 350 comes to mind.

I also highly recommend the roasted garlic.  I topped this pizza basically according to the instruction for Grandma's pizza listed in another thread.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 09:30:12 AM by foodblogger »

Offline 007bond-jb

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 169
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Baton Rouge
  • I Love Pizza & Beer
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2006, 11:20:12 AM »
Foodlogger writes

Bond -
Couple of questions.  First, what is your favorite James Bond film?
Second, did you use oil in the bottom of your pan and if so how much?
Finally, how long, at what temperature, and what position in the oven did you bake your pizza?  Sorry if I missed that info in your posts.  I'm planning on pouring over your posts a little bit this afterlunch.

PS - your hands are HUGE 

Live & let die (Parts were shot in Louisiana my home state)
Yes I used oil unmeasured I just dumped some out the bottle & spread it with a paper towel.
4 to 5 min. @ 700deg lowest rack pan ontop my pizza stone.
PS - my hands are nomal size my camera is cheap & old it does funny things at close range.
check out this pizza its posted in the place
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=918994372eaf885b838a833cf1c4c22b&topic=1547.msg14067#msg14067
« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 11:32:56 AM by 007bond-jb »

Offline Locke

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 25
Re: Giving Sicilian Style a shot
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2006, 12:41:50 AM »
Foodblooger, I decided to try the recipe from your first post and although I was happy with the results I had a vastly different experience than you. My dough wasn't the least bit wet or sticky, I think I interpreted your percentages differently. Were the percentages for everything but the AP flour and the semolina flour in terms of the combined weight of both ingredients?
For example
100% AP flour 1000g
25% Semolina flour 250g
50% water 675g

If that was case I read your recipe wrong as I took every ingredient was taken as % of the AP flour since that was listed as 100%. In any case I'll be increasing the hydration by a good bit next time.

Here's a few pics of my results. Yes it's round, but in the end it tastes just the same as square  :D