Author Topic: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started  (Read 13132 times)

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Offline waltertore

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2013, 10:47:39 AM »
Walter,
               Those photos are great, especially your crust!
I know I have to play with the recipe.
Hey, it seems that most pizza establishments who I have been able to get info from are all using all trumps.
What is your opinion on Bromated vs unbromated?
Is the "All Trumps" bromated or unbromated?
This whole cancer talk is something I don't want to get involved with.
But from my understanding, Bromated gives so much better results.
What do you think?, I'm new on the subject.
I don't want to poison myself, family and my customers?
also, Im looking at a new site closer to home, the owner has Blodgetts, will find out what model.
Talk soon!
Chuck

Hi Chuck:  Thanks!  For me the crust is the focus of a pie and the other stuff should compliment it.   Those pizzas were made by a cognitively delayed student in my class.   She is the best pizza maker in central Ohio!  I ran my recipe through the dough calculator and here it is.  I use the bromated flour.  I am not very versed on the health issues.  I figure I have been eating pizza all my life along with millions of other NYC area people and if I die a year sooner from it that is fine with me.  Seriously, I have read on this forum that bromate is used in drinking water and burns off when baked  but for some reason CA has banned it in flour.    Blodgett makes a lot of deck ovens and some are much better than others.  Also the older ones had stones that contain asbestos and are much better at heat retention and dispersion than the new ones.   Mine are about 40 years old and work like new.  Walter

we mix with cool to cold water.  Lately our kitchen has been running around 85 degrees and humid so I use approx 45-50 degree water cooled with ice cubes.  When winter comes the water comes out of the tap much colder.  Now it coming out around 75 degrees.  We mix for about 8 minutes, ball and refrigerate for 24- 72 hours, remove for at least 2 hours before use.  In the winter I up the water a bit because it is so dry in the kitchen with the forced air heat.

this  makes 10 -16oz dough balls and end up being about a 17-18" pie.  Picture of our blodgett 1000 ovens

Flour (100%):    2759.96 g  |  97.35 oz | 6.08 lbs
Water (62%):    1711.18 g  |  60.36 oz | 3.77 lbs
IDY (.35%):    9.66 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3.21 tsp | 1.07 tbsp
Salt (2%):    55.2 g | 1.95 oz | 0.12 lbs | 9.89 tsp | 3.3 tbsp
Total (164.35%):   4536 g | 160 oz | 10 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 03:42:58 PM by waltertore »


scott123

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2013, 03:44:59 PM »
Seriously, I have read on this forum that bromate is used in drinking water and burns off when baked  but for some reason CA has banned it in flour.

Walter your assessment that bromate, in the quantities found in pizza, is harmless, is on the money, but, just to clarify, bromate isn't used in drinking water, it occurs naturally in drinking water- in about the same quantities (parts per billion) that ends up in a baked pizza. And this naturally occurring bromate in water occurs everywhere, including bottled water and including California.

Chuck, a lot of foods will kill you- if you consume enough of them.  Salt, in large amounts, will kill you.  The World Health Organization classifies bromate as a 'possible' carcinogen.  Constituents of cocoa, nutmeg, cinnamon, black pepper, coffee and tea have the same classification, but, like bromate, the quantity of carcinogenic compounds ingested are so infinitesimally small that they're completely harmless. Can you imagine black pepper or chocolate being effectively banned in California? It would be ridiculous.  That's exactly how ridiculous California's approach to bromate is.

Offline waltertore

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2013, 03:55:15 PM »
Scott:  Thanks for the clarification and putting it in perspective.  I lived in Sonoma County CA for 15 years.  We left there 6 years ago to move to OH.  The main reasons were to simplify our financial burden, get away from the crime ridden area we had to live in (all we could afford at 275k for a 800 sq ft 2bdrm house), a failing infastructure with the schools, and to have more creative freedom with how I teach special educuation.   I had a small, non licensed, version going on in CA but could never get it to the level I am at now due to the fear of lawsuits, regulations, and in general just too much work for a sure to be doomed venture before it started.  I had members of The Bohemiem Club ready to donate a bakery in Santa Rosa to my school district so I could do my thing.  It was located in a well respected area next to a high traffic grocery store.  They would also pay all the bills on it for 5 years so in essence it was free gift.  My district declined citing too many hurdles to overcome to make it happen.  The red tape to do anything in CA is insane.  My friend was going to build a new house but didn't because the building permits alone were over 100k and this was no mansion.  Amys foods is out of Petaluma.  I heard they wanted to expand but the costs to do it were so extreme they are going to move to another state.  CA is a lovely place but it is a mess to be in unless one is finacially set beyond most of what most people can pull off.  I have so many friends back there that struggle day to day to stay there and they are doctors, lawyers, teachers.  My doctor could not fill an open doctor position in his office because the pay did not offset the cost of living. My wife and I netted about 80k a year and had a $2,700/month mortgage.  We were always stressing out on bills and fell into credit card debt to keep up.  Now we live in peace and quiet with a $400/month mortgage  and net about 90k/year.  Anyway, I miss California a lot but could never pull of what I am now doing there. That is funny because most in CA feel themselves cutting edge progressive............    Walter
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 04:07:01 PM by waltertore »

Offline PizzaNJ

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2013, 06:07:38 PM »
Please let us know when the grand re-opening is... It'd be cool to see someone in business that was inspired/influenced by the forum.

The pig roasting will be cool too.

(Maybe you could be convinced to sell us some All Trumps on the side as well...)

Offline Cettastomatopies

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2013, 01:28:50 AM »
Walter, Scott, and Hey Pizza NJ,
                                        I gotta say, you guys are great!!! I don't know if Pizza NJ is a guy or a girl? LOL Either way your one of the guys.
Thanks for all your help!! Scott you are so right, my cleaning company has a major trucking account with 16,500 drivers, Ive had it for the past 15 years, Long story short, These chemical hauling drivers have become very good friends over the years and they tell me all the time of what they deliver to put in chicken feed and water treatment plants, they tell me that you would never eat chicken again or drink municipal water after seeing what they pump out.
 I was concerned that if I put out a delicious pie, that i was not harming anyone.
Then I thought and had a conversation with relatives from this holiday weekend concerning the bromated flour. It dawned that growing up in Staten Island (the worlds largest garbage dump of an island, look it up (Guinness book of records), I have been eating years of delicious, crispy, perfectly cooked Italian bread on sundays with pasta, bakery items from generations of Italian immigrants, pastries to die for, bagels you really never had so good in any other state and yes, tons of pizzerias who all made excellent pizza pies past down from generation to generation and I'm sure they were and still are all using Bromated Flour and getting the best results and I consumed 28 years then including polluted air from the dump (excessive retardation and defects in children living close to the dump).
Sooo, Scott has a very valid point. All of you and I da.. well know that our government allows so much of this in our foods which results in cancer, etc.

Walter, California is cool, but as you experienced is tough. My wife has a cousin who is a television star, ("turtle" from HBO "entourage", now canceled), Jerry Ferrara, really nice kid when I met him, cousin Jerry went out there with nothing, struggled, looking for a dream as an actor, met Mark Wahlberg, starred in a hit cable show became a millionaire, and the rest is history.
Now, my brother in law went out there with a dream to pursue IT. He lasted one year because it was so expensive to live there.
California is not easy and most people have a tough there. Not everyone is as fortunate as "Jerry".

Walter, those are great photos, that "Blodgett" looks like the pair I am trying to inherit now if I get this new deal close to home.
How many pies can you make total?
Crazy idea I had recently, thinking of roasting a "pig " in the la caja china rental I have and making a "pulled pork Pizza"?
Yeah or Neh?? Would customers like? Interesting idea.
On a funny note, if the pizzeria fails, I turn it either into a bbq or latin food joint! HAHA.
NP Pizza NJ, I will keep in touch when the a deal closes. Trouble is, everyone selling thinks they have a goldmine!

Scott, I read some old forums on your history with KA. I've had many bread loaves fail from there KA bread flour. And same recipe, success with Gold medal AP. I do not buy there flour anymore, overrated!
Did you hear or know about there "spring patent" flour? Is that to compete with the "spring king spring patent" brand????
Wonder if its any good?
Talk later gang!
Bye for now.
Chuck


 

Offline waltertore

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2013, 08:00:32 AM »
Chuck: My cousins wife is from SI and I use to go there regularly to the Mandolin Bros. music store.  I played full time around the world for 20 odd years.  A hollywood success story!  That is a rare thing. A blodgett 1000 can cook 4 18"-20" pies or 6 - 16" pies at a time.  They have one of if not the highest btu rating per sq inch of any deck oven.  I think Scott figured that out once here.  There are no electronics and a monkey wrench, screwdriver, and a some open end wrenches are all you need to service them.   Parts are still readily available as well.  I think they stopped making them in 1980.  Pulled pork pizza?  I am out of touch with the NJ palate.   Back when I was growing up (50's-70's) it would never go.  I visit every year or so and it seems each time I go back I see more crazy looking pies at most of the places so it probably would be a big hit.  I put some taylor ham on a pie last week and people loved it.   I think that would be a big seller in NJ and I know of no pizzeria doing it.  Have you tried GM Harvest King for bread?  I use it with great results.  Unfortunately the Restaurant Depot here has stopped carrying it and my Gordon Food Service rep says I have to buy 50-50 pound bags for them to order it.   We are small time with artisan breads and that amount would rot before we use it up.   Walter

here are 6-16-17" pies in the oven and some french loaves using Harvest King
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 08:10:57 AM by waltertore »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2013, 09:25:53 AM »
Have you tried GM Harvest King for bread?  I use it with great results.  Unfortunately the Restaurant Depot here has stopped carrying it and my Gordon Food Service rep says I have to buy 50-50 pound bags for them to order it.   We are small time with artisan breads and that amount would rot before we use it up.   Walter

Walter, have you checked with RDP Foodservice on Oakland Park near Indianola (Clintonville)?
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2013, 09:36:26 AM »
NP Pizza NJ, I will keep in touch when the a deal closes. Trouble is, everyone selling thinks they have a goldmine!

Goldmines aren't for sale. Be very suspicious of anyone trying to sell a pizzeria.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline waltertore

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2013, 09:59:45 AM »
Walter, have you checked with RDP Foodservice on Oakland Park near Indianola (Clintonville)?

Ryan:  Thanks for that lead.  I will call them.  Walter


Offline Cettastomatopies

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2013, 12:05:16 PM »
Hey Walter and Ryan,
                   Walter those pics are great, NJ has lost most of any artisan el, back in the day bakeries with bread as beautiful as yours.
We now are faced with Wegmans and Panera. Too me growing up on Staten Island, I have a hard time with this. The old Italian, German or polish man behind the counter with that personal touch and bread recipes passed down from generations, now all commercial.

Keep rockin, that bread makes my mouth water!
I'm 43, Mandolin brothers I remember well. Being in music did you know any musicians in Staten Island (Lou or Al Mannarino, Ralph Azzara?)
Just checking.
Staten Island is now become little Russia. All the Russians from Brooklyn came over the verrazano bridge and the population exploded.
Its real congested now. I miss the great food it has tho.
Hey Walter, Pork roll, egg and cheese, "a jersey favorite"!
GM HK for bread good to know. If I can only get it to look as great as yours!!!
Thanks!
Chuck

Offline waltertore

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2013, 01:22:38 PM »
Chuck:  Thanks!  The artisan thing is dying everywhere I think.  Young people want things right now.  They don't understand the apprentenship thing that the old guys (and me luckily) learned under.   Luckily there will always be some young people driven to do it the right way but like you said Panera bread is the new model.   I hate their bread.  It looks good with their computerized steam ovens but lacks the touch of good stuff.  I use pans of water for steam in our blodgetts.  My mother is from Italy and I learned all this stuff from her and her family in the Newark area.  I often hated it as a kid- wanted to play with my friends - but instead was home making meatballs, sausage, cheese, breads, and such and or going down to Newark with my grandfather and helping him butcher meat.  He cured all his own stuff at home, made wine with grapes in the yard and cases off the Newark docks, had a still that he made his cordials.   We made everything from scratch.  My grandparents never owned a home.  They rented 2 family houses and always had a spare room for laying out pastas, curing meats, and the garage was a smoke house.  I was raised old school, and going on 60, now realize what a gift it was.  I don't reconize those musicians but I left pretty early on with Wilbert Harrison.  He had that big hit Kansas City in the 50's and Lets Work Together in the 60's.  I have led a colorful life people tell me.  To me it is normal.   Here is a link to my music bio, and about 5,000 of my songs.  I am the creator of Spontobeat.  I spontaneously create all my words and music as I go along and have no idea what will come out.  I had a lot of legends of rock and roll and blues in my band or I in theirs over the years.  When I based my band out Brussels for 2.5 years I became good friends with the bread baker on the corner.  His shop was great and he was French trained.  I ate many a taylor ham breakfast sandwiches when I did construction out of Carlstadt.    I bet that would be a big hit as a topping.  Pure NJ pride there.  Many in NYC never heard of taylor ham.  I guess all places change.  SI use to be a strange place to me just for the island effect and the layout.  I spent an afternoon last month with Anthony, the owner of Una Pizza in SF.  We hit it off with the 1 man show thing.  It is a lonely road we both concluded but the drive to do things superceedes that.  I wish we lived closer.   I really was impressed with his entire operation.   Walter

link to a streaming of my most current songs.  I record everything at once with drums on my feet, guitar, harp on a rack, vocals, in my studio on our property.  I went back to being a 1 man band after I quit playing full time and not living in a major music center.  It is good for less headaches.  I prefer to be a 1 man show with everything I do including pizza/baking.  It makes for less problems.  Money doesn't drive me. My wife and I live very simple.  What drives me is doing meaningful work with these kids and the bakery/pizza angle has been a great match.  Luckily my special needs students and I groove perfectly most all the time. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=157137&content=widgets

my musical bio and such
 http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=157137

a great video interview with Anthony.  A true inspiration.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 02:18:15 PM by waltertore »

Offline Auralnauts

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2013, 06:46:16 PM »
You know, I may not be an expert in this but I'm someone who is in the process of opening up a pizzeria in Colombia. I really don't see how you could go into opening a business blind. No matter how many recipes, or how much advice people give you here; you won't have their experience. So let me put what I'm saying in prospective. I'm a pizza maker, if I were to go into a 4 star Italian restaurant to be a cook with no prior experience on cooking Italian cuisine... I'd make a crappy product.

Now, we all start somewhere, but I don't think anyone here learned how to make pizza by buying a pizzeria. I personally think you should work for a pizzeria or learn from someone near you. No one can hand you experience virtually.

Best of lucks pal.
Dough, stretch, sauce, cheese; check.

Offline Cettastomatopies

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2013, 01:17:31 AM »
Auralnuts,
            Thanks for your concern.
Because I might be a bit short on a purchase right now (bank pulled the plug on my loan),
That has been stuck in my head. But, it's not like I've never been in a kitchen before.
I am considering working in a pizzeria near by to toss some skins.
Practice, practice, practice. And you know as we'll as I that everyday is a learning process.
I have been in biz for 19 years with the cleaning with a staff so it's not like I don't know or I never ran a biz before. This is a passion of mine and I won't stop till it succeeds!
That's called "dedication". All night long recipe trials and errors till its right.
Thanks for caring.
Chuck


scott123

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2013, 01:42:43 AM »
I am considering working in a pizzeria near by to toss some skins.

I wouldn't recommending learning how to stretch dough with someone else's dough, especially a dough that most likely isn't winning any awards. You really want to learn with your own dough.

I think, from a business perspective, you're more than qualified for this venture. If you've never made pizza before, though, then you've got work to do. One of the biggest traps that aspiring pizzamakers fall into is believing that pizza is relatively easy to make/quick to master and that, as long as you have a good recipe, things will sort themselves out.  Mediocre pizza is incredibly easy to make, but I wouldn't re-open an existing pizzeria, especially one in NJ, with mediocre pizza.  You want something truly top shelf, and, to do that, it takes time to master.  You can't just work with yeast, you have to understand yeast.  You can't just knead for x minutes, you have to understand gluten and everything that impacts it.  I've seen people get up to speed in as little as 3 months, but that was devoting most of their day to mastering pizza. Ideally, a think a year making pizzas at home would give most people a solid foundation.

I don't know how soon you plan on opening/re-opening, but, you can't start this process soon enough.  If you wait until you have a deck oven oven at your disposal, it will be too late.  You should be making pizza, at home, yesterday.

Offline La Sera

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2013, 07:43:07 AM »
I appreciate good dough as much as anyone on this site -- a place full of people who appreciate quality pizza. However, as a pizza business owner, I'll say this:

La Sera's Pizza Business Rule #6:

An inexpensive, plain, slightly oily dough with delicious cheese and toppings will outsell expensive, delicious dough with cheap, plain toppings every day.



Dough is just a base for American-style pizza.

Dough is the pizza for Neapolitan and some other styles.

Any normally intelligent person can learn to make basic New York dough. It isn't rocket science. A great combination of topping flavors, the cooking process and oven handling take a little more thought and practice.

Knowing your way around a kitchen makes a product. Knowing how to market, manage and hire makes a business.

Good luck!

scott123

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2013, 08:43:01 AM »
An inexpensive, plain, slightly oily dough with delicious cheese and toppings will outsell expensive, delicious dough with cheap, plain toppings every day.



Dough is just a base for American-style pizza.

Dough is the pizza for Neapolitan and some other styles.

Any normally intelligent person can learn to make basic New York dough. It isn't rocket science. A great combination of topping flavors, the cooking process and oven handling take a little more thought and practice.

Knowing your way around a kitchen makes a product. Knowing how to market, manage and hire makes a business.

I'm sure this is excellent advice for an aspiring pizzeria owner in Japan, but, for a NY style pizzeria in the NY area... the dough is massively important.  And dough that will differentiate you from the countless other slice joints on every corner- that absolutely is rocket science. There's no facet that you can dial in- everything has to be perfect. Perfect toppings and perfect dough.

There's not a single well known NY area pizzeria that has achieved their success via marketing.  They've all clawed their way to the top by putting out pizza that's better than anyone else.  That's one of the most phenomenal aspects about NY pizza. Everyone, no matter who you are, has a chance. Merit matters.  The market is brutally competitive, but if you can put out a product that blows people away, you will rise to the top- and it doesn't take a huge investment or tremendous business savvy- just incredibly hard work and the acquisition of a considerable amount of knowledge- knowledge found within these walls.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 08:48:49 AM by scott123 »

Offline waltertore

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2013, 12:12:17 PM »
I agree with Scott.  Having grown up in the NYC area he is right on.   For me and many the crust is the key and the toppings compliment it and do not overpower.   A simply made  NYC pie is something that takes years to  master IMO.  Topping are becoming more and more the in thing but to me take away from the perfect meeting of crust sauce and cheese. I always savor the unsauced/non topped part of the crust.  Now if you were opening up a shop out here in Central Ohio the greasy heavy toppings and a sub par, often frozen shipped in crust, run through converyor ovens is a big hit.   

One thing that is a big transition from great home pies to a full blown operation is the dough management thing.  I find that to be the most challenging on a day to day basis. because the temperature/humidity levels, tap water temps, ebb and flows of demand, are always changing.  I think with Chuck's extensive culinary backround the sauce, cheese, topping, ordering, issues would be minor.  Walter
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 06:07:31 PM by waltertore »


Offline Chaze215

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2013, 06:04:14 PM »
I recently went to a place that just opened here in NJ. The sauce and cheese were very good, however the dough was TERRIBLE. The only analogy I can make is taking Boars Head cold cuts and putting them on crappy bread to make a sandwich. Not my cup of tea.
Chaz

Offline La Sera

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2013, 10:30:33 PM »
1. Plain doesn't mean bad or sub par. Plain means it isn't elaborate. It doesn't have a sophisticated, delicate texture or require skillful handling to form.

2. The NY/NJ market is saturated with places run by families for generations, with customers spanning generations, but the owner of a new pizza business in that environment doesn't need much marketing savvy? That's a rhetorical question.

scott123

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2013, 11:23:39 PM »
2. The NY/NJ market is saturated with places run by families for generations, with customers spanning generations, but the owner of a new pizza business in that environment doesn't need much marketing savvy?

This is my point.  The well known places all have such devoted followings that any kind of marketing is useless. You won't draw people away from their favorite pizzerias with an advertisement or a mailer.  Everyone has substantial marketing budgets.  Whatever you invest in marketing only gets drowned out by a sea of thousands of voices.  No matter how targeted you are or creative in your approach, to customers with this kind of brand loyalty, it's just noise. The only way to pluck customers out of the hands of your competitors is by word of mouth. If you can give people a product that's so fantastic that they can't shut up about it, then your worries are over.

Offline La Sera

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2013, 09:23:26 AM »
All the overarching consulting buzzwords aside, he'd just making something different.

He wouldn't be making the best because there is no best. Everyone has a different opinion about what's the best or even good. Pizza is like cars. Everyone has different tastes.

Offline pt

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2013, 11:07:45 AM »
La Sera's Pizza Business Rule #6:

An inexpensive, plain, slightly oily dough with delicious cheese and toppings will outsell expensive, delicious dough with cheap, plain toppings every day.



Dough is just a base for American-style pizza.

Dough is the pizza for Neapolitan and some other styles.

For me, if the dough is not good I will never go back for the delicious cheese and toppings.  And that is for all styles of pizza.

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2013, 01:14:08 PM »
For me, if the dough is not good I will never go back for the delicious cheese and toppings.  And that is for all styles of pizza.

 ^^^
Chaz

Offline waltertore

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Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2013, 02:28:17 PM »


He wouldn't be making the best because there is no best. Everyone has a different opinion about what's the best or even good. Pizza is like cars. Everyone has different tastes.

I agree with this not only with pizza, but with life.  We all should do what inspires us instead of putting our energy into gaining the cheer of the crowd, but worldly temptations usually win out.  Food, music, art, is all totally subjective because if one person says it is the best or worst it is as totally legitimate as anyone Else's opinion.  I learned this playing music full time for 20 odd years around the world.  A great example is one night I felt I played so bad I should have refunded the ticket price and then I would get rave reviews from the crowds and media.  Then I would play what I felt the best I had to date to nothing, and then again some nights the crowd and I agreed.  There is no science to this stuff but there is media.  That will sway most people to like or not like something big time.  Most people have to be told what is good and what is bad.  Stuff gets famous or destroyed overnight with the right media people involved. 

I make my pizzas the way I like them.  If others like them fine.  If not that is fine too because bottom line- I make them to eat myself and I am not going to make anything I don't like.  I have had natives here tell me that Pizza Cottage is the best pie they ever ate. I ask them what they think of my pies and they say they are good but I should really try pizza cottage.  Pizza cottage pies are worse than frozen red baron pizzas IMO.  Conversely I had a 3rd generation NYC pizzeria/Italian restaurant owner and a Connecticut native that grew up on Pepe's tell me my pies are as good as any they had.  They are repeat customers so they weren't jiving and the NYC guy and his wife often volunteer in my bakery when we have a huge order to fill.  Go figure....... IMO if more people followed their heart instead of their mind we would have such great food, music, and art, that the world would look completely different than it does today.  I learned a lot about this from working with Autistic students.  Many will do what turns them on at any cost.  Fame, cheers, wealth, means nothing to them.  They do what they do because they are driven to and to not do it, death would be more pleasant.  Here is a link to one of my former Autistic Students that wrote some incredibly simple poetry.  Then she would sing it to my spontaneous music I would make up as she sang in my studio.  We did several shows at disabled artists shows and were highly received.  But most "normal" people can not relate to the music Gwen and I  made. It unnerves them because it doesn't fit the slot they have established in their brain.   My best musician friends, many of them Grammy winners, love it.  We had a project going with Patti Sterling, who mentored under Sara Vaughn,  to do a duets album but Gwen graduated and her disabled mother fled to parts unknown with her.  Also Evan Johns, a Grammy nominated musician was working on an album of her songs/poems, but has fallen on bad health.  Listen to a song. She sings for less than a minute and is done.  There was no way I could get her to do a 3 minute song.  I learned a lot from that little girl about doing what is in me and not what I think I should be doing :)
Walter
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=806114

« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 10:27:39 AM by waltertore »

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Commercial dough recipes to get a New Jersey pizzeria started
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2013, 06:06:10 PM »
He wouldn't be making the best because there is no best. Everyone has a different opinion about what's the best or even good. Pizza is like cars. Everyone has different tastes.

Pizza is like cars, huh?  You really think there's a lot of people out there that don't like Ferraris?  With enough forethought, care and attention to detail, one can make the pizza equivalent of a Ferrari- and it doesn't have to cost a couple hundred thousand dollars.

We all like to think of ourselves as being different, as being unique, and, to a small extent, we are, but, at the end of the day, people's tastes are not that different.  Write a great song and most people will enjoy it. Make a great movie and most people will see it's inherent greatness.  Beautiful women are generally perceived as beautiful by most men.  Are there outliers?  Of course.  Are these outliers statistically significant, though? No.  According to the small sampling of people that I've come across, I'd guess that 1 in 300 people don't like chocolate. Does that have any impact on the level of adulation the rest of us have for chocolate? Of course not. Great pizza has that same level of appeal.

NY style pizza is not a niche product. It's a product with mass appeal.  You're not targeting outlier tastes. When you sell a NY slice, you're tapping into a universal aesthetic- you're writing the song, that, if great, most people will love. You're manufacturing the car, that, if done right, almost every person would just about kill to drive.

When I make pizza for others, be they family, friends or strangers, I strive for 8 out of 10 people telling me that it's the best pizza they've ever had. If I don't achieve that, I've failed. This is the commitment to excellence that I try to instill in my clients as well. There are highly quantifiable, objective qualities to a pizza (such as oven spring, crumb texture, cheese coloration, charring, microblistering, fermentation flavor byproducts, etc.) that, when achieved, produce an inherently superior product- a product that will produce religious experiences for those that consume it.

Pizza is not a widget who's success rises or falls on the way it's marketed.  It is a drug, a potential pathway to bliss that you addict people to.  Truly great pizza is more addictive than crack, and, just like crack, you don't need marketing to sell it.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 01:17:58 AM by scott123 »