A16 recipe modified for bread machine

[Lido]

This is an intermediate followup to this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2686.0.html.

I'll post detailed info and results when I'm done, but right now I'm worried that I might have done something wrong.

I took the A16 recipe posted by Fritz and modified it to work with my bread machine (sanyo) based on above mentioned thread's replies.

Ingredients:
1.1 cups of refrigerated water with an ice cube in it (cube added while measuring - so no extra water from the ice)
3.4 cups Molino Bordignon "00" flour
1.4 tsp salt
1.7 tsp olive oil
.6 tsp saf IDY (yeast)

Process:
Last night I added all the stuff in the order the machine manual listed (also as listed above).  Turned the machine on to french dough setting.  There was no pre-warming stage, it just went straight to mixing.  A few minutes of pulsed mix action followed by a long cycle of the paddle just spinning.  After ten minutes the dough ball looked pretty well formed so I removed it.  It was cool to the touch.  I was trying to avoid overheating the dough, which was said to exhaust the yeast and lead to a hard crust with no rise.  I definitely avoided overheating the dough, but I'm starting to worry that I didn't let the dough get warm enough or at all.  So as I was saying...I took the dough out of the machine after ten minutes.  I worked the dough by hand for about a minute and then divided it into two balls.  I oiled both dough balls lightly, put them into two separate plastic bags, folded each plastic bag over so the opening was under the dough ball it held and then put each bag into its own tin.  Then I put both tins in the fridge.  This morning I looked in the tins and the dough hadn't risen noticeably.  I'm planning on using the dough tonight.  Is there something wrong?  Can I let the dough rise at room temp ~65F tonight for an hour or so before I use it or is that not long enough?  I'm hoping for a soft puffy crust at the edges and fairly thin in the middle.  Thanks.

[Pete-zza]

Lido,

It's not uncommon for doughs that use little yeast and cool water not to rise that much while in the refrigerator. I frequently make such doughs and don't see a noticeable rise until about two days later, often between day 2 and day 3.

What I would do in your case if you want to use the dough tonight is to take the dough balls out of the refrigerator about 2-3 hours before you plan to use them and set them on your counter, out of the tins, and covered with a sheet of plastic wrap. If your kitchen is around 65 degrees F and everything was done correctly in making the dough, I think you should be OK and the dough balls should start to rise and become relatively soft. I'm not familiar with the brand of 00 flour you are using but I have successfully followed the above approach using other brands of 00 flour. The dough should be usable for another few hours after you plan to use them.

Peter

[Lido]

Thanks Peter,

I'll give that a try.

[Lido]

These pizzas were much closer to what I was hoping for with regard to the dough, but not perfect.  The crust was still a little more on the crunchy rather than chewy side.  I'm wondering if I should go back to 425F with a longer bake time.  I also think I made a mistake when it came to the sauce, so these were definitely not perfect but still tasted good.

Finishing up...  I made the dough as mentioned in the post at the top of this thread.  I took Peter's advice and removed the dough from the fridge a few hours before I was going to use it.  I put it on the cutting board with a plastic bag flat under the dough and another bag laying on top and then a kitchen towel on top of that.  I kept the board near the oven while it was pre-heating and the dough seemed to rise the right amount during the two and a half hours I let it sit for.

For the sauce the plan was to use pure San Marzano tomatoes and nothing else.  Unfortunately I forgot to strain the tomatoes before grinding them up so if there was excess water in the can with them it diluted the sauce.  All I did was pour the contents of the can into a blender and hit puree for a minute or so.  The sauce did come out kind of watery so if anyone knows what the right way to make Neapolitan sauce from a can of tomatoes is, please let me know.

This is the first time in years that I formed the dough completely without using a rolling pin.  I think the 00 flour might have made it easier to do because it was easy to stretch and didn't break.  Usually I have had dough that sprang back every time it was stretched or it would break when it got to the size I wanted.  The edge thickness seemed perfect to me here, but it might be too thin in the middle.  Out of the above dough recipe I made two 14 - 15" pies.

I used U.S. made buffalo milk mozzarella.  The pieces were small so it took a while to cut them up, but they were firmer and easier to cut than the Italian buffalo mozzarella I got last time.  I put a few pieces of basil on before baking and saved some to put on after baking.

The oven with stone was heated at 500F for over an hour.  I put the first pizza in for about 5 minutes.  The edge of the crust was slightly darker than white but not really brown.  Also the inside of the edge of the crust seemed a little underbaked and doughy.  For the second pizza I extended the bake time to about 7 minutes which seemed to come out a little better.  As I mentioned the crust was much better than it has been.  It was more like bread than a cracker, but still a little too crispy.  I'd love to get more brown spots on the dough - especially the bottom - but at the same time I'd like the crust to be a bit softer.  Maybe those two things are not possible to get at the same time.  Here's a image of the ingredients and the resulting pie:

[Pete-zza]

Lido,

Since you referenced the A16 thread in the title of your thread, I assume that you have read enough of the A16 thread to understand the challenges in making good Neapolitan pizzas in a home oven. In my view, while you will be able to make some decent Neapolitan pies in a home oven, you will not be able to achieve the same results (aka nirvana) as using a high-temperature oven, such as a high-temperature wood-fired oven. With a home oven, you will always be fighting issues of crust texture and coloration. As you may have already discovered, a good part of the A16 thread was devoted to these issues and possible solutions.

I might also add that there can be significant variations between different brands of 00 flours. I have never used the brand you used and I have yet to use my bread machine to make 00 dough. Some brands of 00 flours, especially the ones low in protein/gluten, usually need a longer knead time that those with higher protein/gluten levels. Unfortunately, in too many cases it is hard to know how much protein there is in a particular brand of 00 flour because of insufficient labelling data. Often even the importers can't help you with that information. The brand of 00 flour that comes closest to meeting the objective of supplying meaningful protein and other 00 flour specifications is the Caputo 00 brand.

Since you are using volumes, it is hard to know what the hydration level is for your dough formulation. Today I weighed out 3.4 cups of Caputo 00 pizzeria flour using my standard measuring techniques and got around 15 ounces. For the water, I got around 9 ounces. Those amounts yield a hydration of 61%. That level would work for a high-temperature oven but for a home oven it is higher than I would recommend. I would suggest using something around 55%. Above that, you run the risk of the crust being cracker-like as the long bake times drive off the moisture in the dough. Using a bit of olive oil is a good idea and I would continue to use it if I were you. I don't think that I would go to a lower bake temperature and longer bake time since that is likely to produce a more cracker-like crust. The tradeoff from using the higher bake temperature and shorter bake time is that you won't get as much coloration in the crust and there may be a bit of pastiness in the dough. In my experience, it is when people wait to get the desired coloration that they end up too often with a drier and more crispy crust. The only known cure for all these ills is a high-temperature oven.

When I use San Marzano tomatoes, I usually just crush a few tomatoes by hand to allow the juices to fall into a bowl, and break the tomatoes into long shreds to put on the pizza. It is also possible to drain the tomatoes from the can and puree what remains or run them through a food mill. If that produces a sauce that is too wet, then you can always drain them a bit in a sieve. Obviously, there are many variations of the theme, so you should feel free to add herbs or spices, oil, grated cheeses, garlic, or whatever. I frequently switch between the "classic" Neapolitan approach and U.S.-style approaches depending on my mood and whatever ingredients I have on hand.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Lido,

As a followup to my last post, I did some calculations using the numbers I referenced in the post and the pizza sizes you mentioned (14"-15") and came up with a thickness factor for your dough/crust of around 0.07-0.08. If my calculations are correct or nearly so, you might want to up that thickness factor to around 0.09. That will give you a slightly thicker crust and perhaps reduce the degree of crispiness. The easiest way to get that thickness would be to use 13" for the pizza size. Otherwise, you will have to increase the quantities of the ingredients used in your formulation.

Peter

[Lido]

Peter,

Thanks for all the help and info.  I'm going to look at the equipment thread to look into a high-temp oven.  I think I've gotten decent enough results from this recipe that I will be able to make it good with better sauce even if I don't get a hotter oven.  I'm also going to look at the Neapolitan-American thread and see if that style will work better in my oven.  I also think one of the most helpful things was a link to that Italian site with a little video clip of someone shaping the dough and then topping and baking in an outdoor oven.