My best NY style

[tonymark]

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU ! to everyone on this forum.

The quality of my pizza has increase ten fold since I started reading this forum. 

I do a basic NY style using 63 % hydration with a 72 hr cold retardation.  I believe the keys elements are autolyse (25 minutes) and retardation.  My sauce is restrained "Bionature organic strained tomatoes" with ground oregano.  See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2634.0.html.

I use an old Magic Chef oven with pilot lights to cook on 2 different stones.  (this oven has no electronics, so the broiler will heat it forever).  I cook at about 700 F.  This temperature makes great pies in 6-8 minutes.

I am currently looking for a new home range that will allow at least 650 F cooking temperature.  Does anyone know of such an oven/range?  What is the maximum temperature for a modern home oven.  (modern =  electornics to prevent overheating)

[Fio]

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU ! to everyone on this forum.

The quality of my pizza has increase ten fold since I started reading this forum. 

I can't help you with your range question, but I gotta agree: This forum has increased the quality of my pizza ten fold.

[007bond-jb]

Tony I have both types of ovens an old one with rotary controls & a new all digital. Read very carefully KEEP YOU OLD MAGIC CHEF my old GE heats to 700deg the new one 550 max, cooking at 700deg the pies come out like a pizzaria. I don't use the digital one at all for pizza. If you just want a new oven DON'T THOW OUT THE OLD ONE have it mounted in the garage or on your patio you can build a cabnet around it so it looks nice too. You will kick youself in the a** if all you have is a 550deg oven, the pies just don't taste the same.

[scott r]

I have to agree with 007.  I have not been able to find a new oven that cooks as hot (or as well) as the older ones.  I often go to other peoples homes to make pizza, and the old ovens always seem to get hotter.   

If you don't have any place to put the old one, and you absolutely have to replace it there is another option.  I have modified my one year old maytag oven so that I can open the door while the cleaning cycle is going.  This seems like a very unsafe practice, and maybe it is.  I do feel like I have had good luck so far.  Since my maytag is the bottom of the line self cleaning model ($350), it never seems to get so hot that it is really dangerous.  I have spilled sauce on the glass a few times and it has not broken.  In fact, I wouldn't reccomend the oven if you actually wanted a good cleaning cycle.  I have had spills that don't even clean up that well with a full four hour cycle.  It does work fine at 550, and can get up to 800 if you really let it go for a long time on self clean.  Most of the time it hovers around 700 especially if the door has recently been open and shut.  Again, I caution modifying some of the better ovens, because if left to cook on the cleaning cycle they can reach up to 1000, which would definitely scare me. 

Also, on some of the newer ovens it is easy to calibrate them to get 25-75 degrees of extra heat.  At first this may not seem like a big deal, but I have cooked in ovens that were way too wimpy and slow for me.  After checking the owners manual and calibrating for an extra 50, the oven performed WAY BETTER!  I never knew there was such a big difference between 550 and 600, but there really is.  I think that if you can get a new oven that can calibrate for the extra temp, you should be pretty close to your old oven's performance. 

As a side note I do really prefer the 700 plus ovens, but I am pretty sure that most of the commercial pizzeria ovens max out at 600 or 650.   I rarely see one cranked all the way up.

[tonymark]

Thanks for the responses.

007, I used to have an "old" oven in my carport for summer time baking. (Atlanta is too hot to bake in summer).  That worked pretty well.  I threw it out when I recieved a Big Green Egg for my Birthday one year.  Now the summer pizza are on the patio with this "wood fired oven"

We intend to do a major kitchen renovation this year, and a new oven would look and perform much better.  (Currently, the pilots will not stay lit on the Magic Chef, so they are turned off and I have to light the burner with an aim-a-flame every time.  PAIN IN THE *SS).

I really do not want to modify an oven door to achieve the desired temperatures.  They can make a oven with Sabbath mode but they can't make one that heats hot as hell.

TM

[scott r]

I am not trying to push the point here, but I wanted to clairify that the only modification done to my maytag oven is that I place a normal house key in a small hole.  When you pull the key out of the oven it is totally back to stock.

I have had very good luck with the kitchen aid ovens calibrated for max temp.  I think that would do the trick for you, but they are pricey.  If you are really into cooking, you will also definitely enjoy the one stove top burner that has extra btu.  With this burner I can actually cook food that tastes just like it was made in a high end restaraunt.  Also a big pot of water will boil really fast!  These ovens are built like tanks, and heat up much faster than other ones for sure.  With one of these I don't thing you will miss your old oven that much.

[tonymark]

Scott,

I think I get your point.  I thought when you recalibrate you get all new temperatures (i.e. oven says 350, but temp is actually 400 after messing with calibration).   Are you only recalibrating the max temperature?  If this is the case, this is what I am after.

Oh yea, by expensive I guess your mean $1000-1200.  This is my probably my upper limit. 
Which model kitchenaid do you actually own?

Thanks for the help.

TM

[scott r]

There are two different processes here.  One is that you can recalibrate most modern ovens to actually cook 50 degrees or so hotter or colder than the temperature that is displayed on the digital readout.  This is usually done by holding down a series of buttons (that are usually meant to do other functions) an then programing the unit.  You can have your oven readout say 550, while the oven is actually cooking at 600.  The maximum temp I have seen on a home oven is 550, so the hottest I think a modern oven could go would be 600 even with the re programming. I have noticed that 600 in one oven is not the same as 600 in another. I was recommending the Kitchen Aid because the one I have used seems to be a really hot 600!

The other process is fooling the oven to think the door is latched while the oven cooks in self clean mode.  This is what I was referring to as the simple key method.  See my recent post where another forum member asked me about how to do this in the thread called New Camera.

As far as the Kitchen Aid oven goes, It belongs to a friend of mine.  I did a little web snooping to find out the model for you and I found this unfortunate site.  http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/kit_stoves.html

It sounds like my earlier recommendation of the Kitchen Aid was a bad one.

[beckysuea]

I wouldn't recommend the Jennaire convection oven either.   I bought the top of the line one (about $1500) several years ago and within the first year I had had several major gas leak in multiple lines to the point where I was red-tagged by the gas company and my oven disconnected until repair could show up, multiple times my burners have quit working and those things that turn on the burners replaced and Maytag can't seem to calibrate the oven correctly.   It is still not calibrated correctly.   The convection part is a joke - food on one side burns and most times I have to cook everything at least 1/2 hour longer to get things cooked.

I am waiting for the extended warranty to run out and then this oven is history the first time it needs repair.   Back to a cheap oven as I have a Sharp convection microwave which is great.

[007bond-jb]

Ok I'm back ovens huh? I also have a Dacor 6 burner gas cooktop & my brother has  a Dacor built in electric convection oven. Dacor is pricey but are far superior to domestic brands, we haven't had the first problem with either of the units. they are built to a higher standard.

[PizzaSuperFreak]

all....

i haven't contriubted to this in a long while. i've been way too busy and also pretty satisfied with my results in pizza making.

A WORD OF CAUTION FOR THOSE WHO ARE MESSING WITH THEIR OVENS...

DONT DO IT !!!

i broke the inner pane of glass in my oven because a single drip of water dripped on it while i opened it on clean cycle (750 degrees plus).

here's the best advice i can offer you. go to the local home superstore (home depot, etc) and buy yourself one of those newer stainless steel grills with the thermometer attached to the hood. the higher the btu's the better. here's what you will gain by doing this:

1) you'll be replacing that old piece of crap bbq you've been needing to replace for some *cough* 6-odd years
2) you'll be getting a pizza oven capable of potentially reaching 800 degrees or more!
3) you won't be heating up your kitchen for hours on end with insane amounts of radient heat!
4) you wont jeopardize your family's oven or their saftey for that matter
5) no fear of shattering any window in your oven - there isn't one!

there you go. do yourself a favor and listen to someone who's been through the whole experience.

-PSF

[tonymark]

1) you'll be replacing that old piece of crap bbq you've been needing to replace for some *cough* 6-odd years
2) you'll be getting a pizza oven capable of potentially reaching 800 degrees or more!
3) you won't be heating up your kitchen for hours on end with insane amounts of radient heat!
4) you wont jeopardize your family's oven or their saftey for that matter
5) no fear of shattering any window in your oven - there isn't one!

My grill is a Large Big Green Egg.  Sorry, not replacing it with a gas grill.  Good advice for people with that dinosaur grill.  I would love to experiment with pizza on a gas grill.

I use the BGE in the summer for pizzas, 800 F is easy, but is tricky because the bottom of crust may REALLY burn.

I am not really for modifying an oven for an 800 F cook.  I just wish oven manufacturers would realize that people have a use for hot ovens.  I have cooked gyro meat on my BGE at 600 F, indirectly of course.

Oh year, my ancient oven has no window.  That is rarely a problem.

TM

[tonymark]

I made some pizzas last night on my Big Green Egg ceramic grill.  They were some of the best so far.  I cooked 3 pizza in 1 hour 15 minutes start to finish.  That includes lighting the charcoal in chimney starter, heating the grill and cooking 3 pizzas.  I was still able to bake 8 potatoes with resisual heat.

Recipe (3 315 g pies):
100%  KAB
63%    hydration
15%    Camaldoli starter
2.35% Salt

Mix starter, water and 2/3 flour.  Mix 1 minutes, rest 20, add salt, wet knead 5 minutes, gradually add rest of flour.  Knead 5 minutes, rest 20 minutes and shape.

Rise of 63 hours in fridge.  Remove.  Rise 6 hours at 60-70 F.

Bake in preheat BGE at 650 F?  Maybe 700-750 F.


Two pictures included:
1 - A margartia that cooked 4.5 minutes
2 - The white pizza with EVOO and parmesan cheese that cooked in 3.5 minutes

These are some of the best looking and quickest pies I have made.

For details of procedure on BGE, check out http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,412.msg26811.html#msg26811

[Pete-zza]

Tony,

Great job with the pizzas. They look really yummy.

Can you tell me how you arrived at the percentages you used, and especially the salt? Thanks.

Peter

[tonymark]

I use Jeff's spreadsheet.  I used a 50% flour starter.  I am sure you know that this is not a baker's percentage and is actually a true percentage.  I generally adjust this by estimate; I do it by sight.

I play with the salt content just to see what the taste is like.  I experiment like most people on this site.

The rise times are also just an experiment.  I just received the camaldoli and was playing around with it.  I mostly use Jeff's Patsy's culture.  I have read the camaldoli is less sour, so I have been trying to see what flavor I can develop with a warmer rise.

I know you use the wine cooler rise and any advice is appreciated.

Thanks,

TM

[tonymark]

I just realized I made a mistake in my recent post.  My start to finish time was 1:15 and not 45 minutes.  Sorry for the confusion.

TM

[Pete-zza]

Tony,

The formulation you posted looked like a Lehmann NY style formulation I have used with a preferment but for the amount of salt and the absence of oil. The amount of salt you used, at around 2.4%, is typical of a Neapolitan 00 dough that is fermented at room temperature, and I wondered whether that is where you got the idea to use that specific amount. From your reply, the amount of salt was just a coincidence. Thanks.

Peter

[ZaChaser]

I have also used my SS grill to cook pies and the taste is awesome while cooking
around 700.  Sometimes I even throw a small chunk of hickory in to give the cheese a delicious
smoky flavor.   However, I have cracked three pizza stones cooking on the grill.  Is there any
stones/tiles that can survive the higher heat?

[Jack]

 However, I have cracked three pizza stones cooking on the grill.  Is there any
stones/tiles that can survive the higher heat?

I have used a Magic Chef stone numerous times on a barbeque grill.  These grills are at a private swim/tennis club, get heavy use and are often not exceptionally clean.  In order to keep the bottom of the stone clean, I set it on a piece of heavy duty aluminum foil.  I've learned to pause between pies for reheating, but never cracked the stone.  I run the burners flat out on high and see oven temps pegging the thermometer at 550F.  I've also set the residual grease, etc. on the bottom of the grill on fire - Oops, so I now choose my grills wisely.  I usually make 6-8 pies and hand out slices to anyone who wants.

Jack

Jack

[tonymark]

I have also used my SS grill to cook pies and the taste is awesome while cooking
around 700.  Sometimes I even throw a small chunk of hickory in to give the cheese a delicious
smoky flavor.   However, I have cracked three pizza stones cooking on the grill.  Is there any
stones/tiles that can survive the higher heat?

Search for Fibrament stones on the site.  I hear they can handle high heat.  I use the official Big Green Egg stone made by them.  It is guaranteed for life not to crack from heat.  They will replace it for free.  (that does not include shipping).  I live 15 minutes from the world headquarters so it is not an issue for me.  Oh yea, it has never broken.  I even have place it on a +800 F grill without a problem.

TM