Author Topic: Woe is me, dough management problems  (Read 1543 times)

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Offline 02ebz06

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Woe is me, dough management problems
« on: August 30, 2013, 02:31:26 PM »
We make pizza once a week (make dough on Wednesday, cook Saturday) and only ONCE was the dough easy to stretch/shape.
Rest of time has been a tug of war.  Even tried dough relaxer with little or no significant difference.
We like the recipe, dough looks and tastes great. Friends agree.

Here is recipe/process.

Recipe
 
Ingredient Amount  Bakers%
Flour       794.00g   100.00    (GM All Trumps)
Water     433.00g     54.53     (Bottled water)
IDY             3.11g       0.39
Salt            6.00g       0.76
Olive Oil   10.51g       1.32
 
Process
 
From last Wednesday at approx. 2:00pm
Mix flour, yeast, salt and water for 3-4 min.  (Viking mixer set at 2)
Air temp 79, water temp 88.1
Add oil and mix for 7-8 min (Viking mixer set at 4)
Final dough temp 89.5
Weighed (804g), split in two, oiled, put in container and into fridge (approx 68 hr pre-ferment in fridge).
Other ball oiled and into freezer.

Now, obviously we haven't  tried to shape this one yet, still in fridge until tomorrow, but I don't expect it to be any different than previous attempts.

Thanks in advance for any advice,

Bruce


Offline parallei

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2013, 02:52:10 PM »
You haven't indicted what style of pizza you are shooting for.  If a NY'ish, I'd recommend the following:

Up the hydration to like 60%.

Cut back to the mix/kneading time.  Gluten development will continue in the fridge. Try mix for 1 min., rest for 5 min or so, knead on lowest speed with dough hook for only 5 min or so, to Scott123's "cottage cheese" look.

I think the deal is to not over work the dough.

Make sure you take the balls out of the fridge to come to room temp .well before you stretch them.  I do about 1.5 to 2 hours.

Good luck!

« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 02:55:14 PM by parallei »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2013, 05:06:48 PM »
Up the hydration to like 60%.

I think that's the most important thing, along with a short mix time, which you're already doing.

I use All Trumps for NY style, with an almost identical oil percentage as was listed in the original post. Below 58% hydration is pretty stiff dough; probably very elastic. I've been doing 60% lately. Above 62%, it starts getting a little sticky and more difficult to peel (unless it has been bulk fermented or re-balled, which I don't do). I usually mix for 3 minutes in a KitchenAid with a spiral dough hook (for dough that won't be used until at least the next day).

Offline parallei

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2013, 06:07:58 PM »
I think that's the most important thing, along with a short mix time, which you're already doing.

I usually mix for 3 minutes in a KitchenAid with a spiral dough hook (for dough that won't be used until at least the next day).

Ryan - Just for clarity's sake, Bruce has made a distinction between mix and knead.  I suggested he cut is overall "work the dough" time in half.  It seems you and I would agree  would agree on this!

Paul

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2013, 06:40:03 PM »
Bruce,

Unless you are on a sodium restricted diet, I would also increase the salt to about 1.75%.

Peter

Offline parallei

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2013, 07:37:50 PM »
Bruce,

Unless you are on a sodium restricted diet, I would also increase the salt to about 1.75%.

Peter

Once again for clarity's sake:  Are you suggesting the additional salt will make the dough more extensible?  It would sure make it taste better! :D  But like yourself, I realize some folks have salt restricted diets.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2013, 07:59:04 PM »
Once again for clarity's sake:  Are you suggesting the additional salt will make the dough more extensible?  It would sure make it taste better! :D  But like yourself, I realize some folks have salt restricted diets.

Paul,

The increase in salt is principally for taste. As it so happens, the 1.75% figure that I suggested is in the range that is considered optimal for bread dough. Salt in that range will strengthen the gluten such that the dough becomes more efficient in capturing and retaining the gases of fermentation. The salt will also regulate the fermentation process. If there is too little salt, the dough can become sticky and hard to handle although that might not happen in Bruce's case with the low hydration he has been using.

It's all pretty standard stuff. A good article on salt is this one from King Arthur:

http://web.archive.org/web/20051027064437/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/4a1eb4311b0be08b2b590b39ac3f2c77/download/KAF-04-009%20Salt.pdf

Peter




Offline 02ebz06

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2013, 08:41:45 PM »
Wow, thanks to all the replies, I appreciate the advice. 
No salt restrictions here...  :)
I will up the salt and water and reduce mix time.

Mix time was based on how long it took to get rid of the scrappy look and get a smooth appearance.
I'm guessing with the increase in water, that won't be an issue.

One more thing, Was water temp and final dough temp OK ?

Thanks again...
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 08:50:29 PM by 02ebz06 »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2013, 09:26:01 PM »
Ryan - Just for clarity's sake, Bruce has made a distinction between mix and knead.  I suggested he cut is overall "work the dough" time in half.  It seems you and I would agree  would agree on this!

Paul

I totally overlooked that he mixes for 3-4 minutes, then another 7-8 minutes. (All I saw was the 3-4 minutes.) So what I said before was wrong; that's a lot of mixing, especially with All Trumps. Like Paul suggested, I say go 60% hydration and mix until it reaches the cottage cheese texture that scott123 often advises.

Offline parallei

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2013, 09:30:08 PM »
Paul,

It's all pretty standard stuff.
Peter

Yes, I know.  Just coxing a bit of your more believable wisdom out of you! ;D


Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2013, 10:02:22 PM »
Some of the other answers are not addressing what does cause dough to be difficult to stretch.

I do agree that your mixing time is to long. I have made pizza with salt from .5% to 3 % and I agree that 1.75 to 2 % is the correct amount. for taste.

I also think your hydration is too low but I also donít think that is the problem. I think 60% to 62 % is the correct amount. But it does depend on the flour. Pizza joints like the very low hydration because the dough balls are very easy to handle correctly and if cook  at high temperatures than the pizza is ok.
I have made pizza from 50% to 80%. I think in the range of 60 to 62 is correct for the home pizza. learn to deal with dough that is a little sticky or on the next batch reduce a percent at a time until you like.  It tastes better. In fact I have made the best pizza in my opinion at 70% hydration but it needs special handling and forming.

I have used 6 kinds of flour. the only kind I donít like is the very high protein flour. it has a memory and is tough and chewy when cooked but if that is ok with you?   you need oil to tame.

I like my Panama flour  but if I was in the USA?  I also like KA AP flour. It form a tender product and is easy to handle. I would not use any oil with KA AP flour but you will coat to store and ferment so in reality you are putting a little oil in the recipe.

No one has asked you how exactly you are handling your dough. this is what i do and donít have any problems that canít be solve with a 2 or 3 minute rest.

Mix with a spoon to combine all ingredients, wait 5 to 15 minutes. mix with a dough hook in my kitchen aid speed 2 for about 4 minutes. form a ball by hand It is important to from a good ball and close the seem well, my hand are wetted with oil. Place in a oil plastic container, place in seem down. store in the cooler 2 or 3 days. bring out of the cooler an hour before you use. DONĒT DO ANYTHING TO THE DOUGH BUT FLIP OUT ON THE COUNTER  AND FORM THE SHIN. If you do anything to re ball or adjust the ball it will require time for the dough to relax. I form the skin very quickly and usually donít have to wait for the dough to relax but if you have any problem let it relax for a few minutes and continue.

I also use a dough press. I form 80% of the way with the press than let relax and finish by hand.

I hope by reading my procedure it triggers your thinking about what you are doing different

Sonny
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 10:04:14 PM by sonny.eymann »

Offline 02ebz06

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2013, 09:55:20 AM »

Mix with a spoon to combine all ingredients, wait 5 to 15 minutes. mix with a dough hook in my kitchen aid speed 2 for about 4 minutes. form a ball by hand It is important to from a good ball and close the seem well, my hand are wetted with oil. Place in a oil plastic container, place in seem down. store in the cooler 2 or 3 days. bring out of the cooler an hour before you use. DONĒT DO ANYTHING TO THE DOUGH BUT FLIP OUT ON THE COUNTER  AND FORM THE SHIN. If you do anything to re ball or adjust the ball it will require time for the dough to relax. I form the skin very quickly and usually donít have to wait for the dough to relax but if you have any problem let it relax for a few minutes and continue.

Sonny

Sonny,

I made another batch last night around 8:00pm CDT following the suggestions from others above.
Here is what I did.


Ingredient   Amount    Bakers%
Flour        794.00g   100.00    (GM All Trumps)
Water        476.40g    60.00    (Bottled water)
IDY            3.11g     0.39
Salt          13.9 g     1.75
Olive Oil     10.51g     1.32


Mixed with dough hook on setting 2 for one minute
Added oil and mixed for 20-30 seconds.
Rest for 5 minutes.
Kneaded for 3 minutes with dough hook on setting 2
weighed, split and balled.
Oiled and put in bread bag.
Water temp was 90 and finished dough was 90.5

One more thing to mention, in the past I have put the ball in a container for the cold ferment.
It would spread out and have a smooth texture on surface.
I recently got some bread bags and tried them.  The ball mostly stays in a ball shape and the surface has lots of little bubbles.
Last weeks pizza had the best oven spring ever. My first use of the bags for the cold ferment.
So, could the bread bag cause that?

I cook the pizza on a pellet grill at 650 with a 3/4" Fibrament pizza stone preheated for and hour or more.
So Monday we'll see how the changes work out.

Thanks


« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 10:02:50 AM by 02ebz06 »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2013, 10:49:21 AM »
Sonny,

I made another batch last night around 8:00pm CDT following the suggestions from others above.
Here is what I did.


Ingredient   Amount    Bakers%
Flour        794.00g   100.00    (GM All Trumps)
Water        476.40g    60.00    (Bottled water)
IDY            3.11g     0.39
Salt          13.9 g     1.75
Olive Oil     10.51g     1.32


Mixed with dough hook on setting 2 for one minute
Added oil and mixed for 20-30 seconds.
Rest for 5 minutes.
Kneaded for 3 minutes with dough hook on setting 2
weighed, split and balled.
Oiled and put in bread bag.
Water temp was 90 and finished dough was 90.5

One more thing to mention, in the past I have put the ball in a container for the cold ferment.
It would spread out and have a smooth texture on surface.
I recently got some bread bags and tried them.  The ball mostly stays in a ball shape and the surface has lots of little bubbles.
Last weeks pizza had the best oven spring ever. My first use of the bags for the cold ferment.
So, could the bread bag cause that?

I cook the pizza on a pellet grill at 650 with a 3/4" Fibrament pizza stone preheated for and hour or more.
So Monday we'll see how the changes work out.

Thanks

I think you'll like your results with this dough, mostly because of the shorter mixing time and 60% hydration. Also, the added salt should make a noticeable positive difference in taste.

I'm thinking maybe the difference you've noticed since switching to bread bags could be because the dough cools down quicker in the bread bags. When you store the dough in a bowl, if you close it before you put it in the fridge, you trap a lot of warm air in the bowl, which takes a while to cool down, which speeds up fermentation.

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2013, 11:06:30 AM »
several items.
the experts say the dough temperature should be between 80 and 85 degree mixed. I start with cold water, 40F, my mixed temperature comes out about 80.

the bags are ok but you will have to re ball when it comes out of the bag. that means that you will have to wait for the dough to relax before you form. So in your case re ball when you take it out of the cooler wait a hour to form and depending on the start protein of the flour you are using you will have to stretch and wait to relax  if you have problems.

I think a better way is to ball after mixing and put into about 5"x5" oiled plastic container with a lid ( I have a 1/16" hole drilled in my lids) oil the top of the ball also. and do nothing to it but dump on the counter flatten and form.

 I don't like oil in the recipe but I do coat with oil. Oil isn't necessary if you use AP or lower protein bread flours. Oil is necessary if you are using very high protein flour.
(My opinion)

Offline 02ebz06

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2013, 02:48:15 PM »
several items.
the experts say the dough temperature should be between 80 and 85 degree mixed. I start with cold water, 40F, my mixed temperature comes out about 80.

the bags are ok but you will have to re ball when it comes out of the bag. that means that you will have to wait for the dough to relax before you form. So in your case re ball when you take it out of the cooler wait a hour to form and depending on the start protein of the flour you are using you will have to stretch and wait to relax  if you have problems.

I think a better way is to ball after mixing and put into about 5"x5" oiled plastic container with a lid ( I have a 1/16" hole drilled in my lids) oil the top of the ball also. and do nothing to it but dump on the counter flatten and form.

 I don't like oil in the recipe but I do coat with oil. Oil isn't necessary if you use AP or lower protein bread flours. Oil is necessary if you are using very high protein flour.
(My opinion)


I'm using All Trumps flour.  Around 14% I believe.


Curious how you get dough temp to 80 with 40 degree water?

Here is container with recipe I started this thread. I use a fermentation trap.
One large bubble is typical of what I have seen.
Third pic is of the modified recipe in bag.  Lots of tiy bubbles.


« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 02:51:20 PM by 02ebz06 »

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2013, 07:14:17 PM »
!4 % protein is high and maybe that is the biggest problem in forming and you most likely do need oil in the recipe.

I did mix more dough. flour, room and bowl temperate was at 84F water was at 44F. I mixed with a spoon let stand 20 minutes Temperature was 76F.  then mixed with a kitchen Aid 4 minutes final dough temperature 78F. I have not used the plastic for a long time but I did this time. My concern and why I quit using the bags is that to form a nice round pizza you need to start with a well formed ball.

I also made pizza with 2 day old dough ball. I have formed skins in everything cornmeal, flour and polenta and oil. I like oil because it is easy no mess but needs to be cooked in a pan or Parchment paper.

I oiled a pan, took the dough ball out of the refrigerator. in less then 45 seconds after I turn it out on the pan my girlfriend took the photo. That was formed cold. I turn the pan over onto Parchment paper and the pizza went from 14" to 13" but 1 minute later I reformed to 14". It was cook directly on the paper 11 minutes at 500F on a stone.
I am looking at my photo and I reformed on the paper at near 15". the parchment paper is 16"
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 07:31:31 PM by sonny.eymann »

Offline 02ebz06

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2013, 01:58:45 PM »
Well, I had some interesting results.
Original dough recipe with 58% hydration was made on Thursday so had almost 4 days in the fridge in container.
It formed fantastically! (First two pics cheese only on top).   Cooked for 4 min. at 650.

The dough with the suggested 60% hydration and additional salt fought us.
The dough was very sticky and would absorb the floor on the board very quickly.
Don't know if being in the bread bag had any affect on the stickyness or not.  Guess I'll need more testing.
Had to use a homemade version of a super-peel as it would have never slid off regular peel.
Stretched, waited 5 min., stretched, waited 5 min. and stretched again to get the oddball shape in pic 3&4.  Cooked for 4-1/2 min. at 650.

Tasted both crusts by themselves and they were different. I can't say the one with higher hydration and more salt was better or not, just different.
We liked both.



Offline wsonner

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2013, 07:52:10 PM »
Looking at this with my newbie eyes I'm wondering if the real issue is largely due to the high gluten All Trumps flour? 

Wes

Offline 02ebz06

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Re: Woe is me, dough management problems
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2013, 08:11:15 PM »
Looking at this with my newbie eyes I'm wondering if the real issue is largely due to the high gluten All Trumps flour? 

Wes

Made another one this weekend.  Made the dough ball on Tuesday and cooked on Saturday.
Stretched nicely.  So it seems for the ingredients, recipe, and process I'm using, Four days in the fridge seems to be the magic bullet.


 

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