Author Topic: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !  (Read 8252 times)

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Offline addicted

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Re: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2006, 01:09:00 AM »
addicted,

Since you mentioned a Neapolitan pizzeria's recipe, have you been using a 00 flour or a different flour that simulates a Neapolitan style pizza dough?

Peter
Still using KABF but the yeast amount ,water temp, and rise time are totally different.
Well....okay,then.


Offline Kinsman

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Re: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2006, 04:02:11 PM »
Ya know, I gotta chime in here.
I have learned to cook over a long time.  Much of it has been seat-of-the-pants; sure, I had recipes to get me pointed in the right direction, but almost never has a recipe worked the way I wanted it to.

When I started to make Barbecue, I read all I could find on the subject, which at the time was a few cookbooks.  I spent years getting it down.  Right now on the Web there is so much information available that I could have cut years off the learning curve had I been able to use it. 

Pizza has been much the same.  I know what I have always considered to be a good pizza, and that's pretty much what I have always strived (?) to acheive.  Sauce? It was fairly easy to get that down, but mine has improved greatly from ideas and information I found on this site.  Ingredients? simple, really:  get the best ones you can.  Dough?  Heh.  dough.  That was the one thing that has kept me from making what I think of as a truly great pizza.  I tried every recipe and technique I could find or think up....and they all fell short.  It was just never quite there.  Until.

Until....sourdough.  The real stuff, the stuff that bakers have used for centuries. 
I tell ya, this stuff is truly magic.  It makes the perfect deep-fry breading, too....the one I tried for years to recreate.  and many other things.

It makes a perfect dough every time with very little trouble:
Quote
I do weigh 2 lbs of flour but could easily just fill the bowl "up to about right there".
Add a palmful of Kosher salt.
"That much" starter:  about two cups.
Same amount of water.
Mix it all up until it's a little bit too wet.  Don't really knead it unless I want to use it right away:  plenty of structure will develop from the long rise.
Dump it into a bowl and cover it with plastic.  Leave it at "coolish room temp" for 6-8 hours at which time it's looking like dough and not just a lump of flour and water.

Then I like to form it into a log and just cut off hunks 6-8oz for a small pie 12-16 ounces for a large or deep-dish.  More if it's a large, deep-dish.
   Hand toss, place on a corn-mealed peel and go at it.

This makes the best dough or bread I have had anywhere.  Just by itself it's a great appetizer.  Put a few ingredients on it and it's even better.

I've been using it for a couple years now and I am still amazed every single time.....I would put this dough up against any other one, anytime.

Some folks I know love the prcess an really get into weighing and measuring and taking notes and keeping track of every variable; nothing wrong with that but it's not for me.  This dough is as flexible as I am, and twice as easy.

EDIT:  The flour I use is a hard red winter wheat at around 14% protein. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 05:24:31 PM by Kinsman »
Chris Rausch

Long Riders BBQ
Florence, Montana

Offline creampuff

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Re: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2008, 11:27:04 PM »
This was so cute...J's what seems to be 1st post...gotta love this guy :chef:

Offline bolabola

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Re: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2008, 05:45:07 PM »
I couldn't agree more with you Jerry..as a retired chef of 30 years you have to learn to get the feel of what you are cooking..I worked at a very busy italian place for 12 years and we'd get these cooks fresh out of school asking for measurements and measuring cups..they wouldn't last more then a week and I'd have to fire them..they couldn't take the pressure, fast pace and useing your hands for eyeing out what you need..
when I was doing french food it had to be more refined but ladles take care of that..

as for my NY pizza dough I've finally found one that works for me after hundreds of tries..
I always use KA bread flour and I've found if I use my scale it always comes out exactly the same..my dough is the only thing I cook that I use exact measurments..why? because it works for me and it's foolproof..I do knead the dough alittle when it comes out of the KA and if it dosen't feel right I add a touch more flour..
I grew up in NYC and I can honestly say now that I think my crust is better..especialy since I've bought the 2 stone and I can get over 800 degrees..
another thing is everyone always talks about how great the dough is after 3 to 4 days in the fridge..
I like mine after one day, that way my crust gets a nice crispy char to it with crunchy air pockets..
after 3 days in the fridge the yeast eats up all the sugars in the dough and you can't duplicate from one day..all I use is water,flour,yeast and salt..
cheers

Charles
Pizza Rocks

Offline pcampbell

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Re: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2008, 11:41:18 AM »
I dunno.  If you are making 100 dough balls, are you going to do it by feel?  And if you are making small amount of dough, the variation of ingredients will have a much larger effect than if you are making 100 dough balls.

Generally I will just randomly try stuff, but record what I'm doing so that if it comes out well I can reproduce it :)
Patrick

Offline JerryMac

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Re: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2008, 12:35:43 AM »
pcampbell,

Come on,  :) who the hell ever makes 100 dough balls  ??? ???

Get over it  >:D >:D

I Make Pizza in My "HOUSE"

Jerry

Offline JerryMac

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Re: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2008, 12:51:24 AM »
bolabola,

Thanks for the compliment, Considering the source I am embarrassed  :-[

Jerry

Offline pcampbell

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Re: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2008, 08:36:13 AM »
Maybe one day I will make 100 dough balls at a time.  I'd love to have a pizza place, but the market here is nuts.  In the town next door there are at least 7 pizza places within 1 mile of each other.  Only one is a chain!
Patrick

Offline yaddayaddayadda

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Re: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2008, 11:19:21 AM »
This really is one of the more useless threads on this site.

If JerryMac thinks dough is an Art and refuses to measure ingredients because he's a bad mamajama, then so be it.
If pcampbell wants to triple weigh his ingredients to the hundredth of a gram using a nuclear powered scale, then so be it.

For novice pizza makers who have struggled with failures (like myself) a consistent recipe using measurements by weight can ensure good, consistent results. Personally, after several failed attempts and many expletives, I quit even trying for a while.  The advice I've gotten here has reinvigorated my passion for good pizza, and helped me achieve good results on a regular basis.  Sure, it's just a few pennies for the raw ingredients, but when it's near dinner time and you have a wife and kids hungrily expecting dinner, you can't easily abort the mission should you find your dough was a complete failure.

That being said, as I make batch after batch (using scientific measurements), I'm learning to use my eye and my other senses to see how the dough works.  I don't doubt that after a while, I'll measure less and less

But we're talking about personal preference.  I don't eat pizza made by anyone on this forum except myself. If I want to use whack-a-dough, ketchup and american cheese slices and call it pizza, I'm the only one who eats it, so who cares?

And another thing....has anyone REALLY measured how much humidity affects doughmaking?  Sure it makes for some romantic imagery of a pizziaolo being at one with his ingredients..but how much of it (if any) is urban legend?

Can't we all just get along?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2008, 01:56:58 PM »
I actually enjoy reading the posts in this thread. And I know that whenever someone decides to post a new reply in the thread after a quiescent period that it will arouse (and sometimes re-ignite) the passions in others, either in favor of or against using weight measurements.

The way I see it, some people are motivated to make pizzas primarily for themselves. They want to use volume measurements and prepare the dough by touch and feel, and they don't want to have to buy a scale to do that. Quite often, they are perfectly willing to tell others how they did what they did but they are not necessarily trying to ensure that others will achieve the same results, even if they sincerely hope that such is the case. Some people, even those who are good at communicating what they do, just don't have the time for that, and the patience to nurse people along until they get it just right. It is my observation that people in this group tend not to mind if their dough turns out a bit different each time. In fact, sometimes they like that. They may even come up with something new that they like even better than what they did before. In most cases, they are not interested in making hundreds of dough balls as a professional pizza operator might do. Just enough for themselves and those around them.

Other people are willing to take the next step and to optimize and improve the information transfer process so that they and others have a better chance of replicating their results, whether it is for a single dough ball or hundreds of them. For this purpose, one will need to use scales and weights and baker's percents and the like. The people who are most likely to use this approach tend to have technical backgrounds or professional culinary arts experience and are used to dealing with numbers and technical concepts. They, along with some professional pizza operators, are also the ones most likely to use the dough calculating tools and to alter and to test new dough formulations. By nature or by training, they are not intimidated by numbers. In fact, they derive comfort in working with numbers and precision.

The point I am trying to make is that people are motivated in different ways by disposition and training and have their own comfort zones in what they do. It's not a matter of right or wrong or good or bad. There's enough room on the boat for all types of people, including those who merge aspects of both art and science. I don't see them as being mutually exclusive but rather complementary. In fact, a wonderful example of this is November's conversion tool (http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/) that converts weights of various pizza ingredients to volumes and vice versa. What is so telling about that tool is that November, who is as technical and technically proficient as they come, designed the tool primarily for use by people who work with volume measurements.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 06:18:36 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Jackitup

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Re: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2008, 02:37:26 PM »
I actually enjoy reading the posts in this thread. And I know that whenever someone decides to post a new reply in the thread after a quiescent period that it will arouse (and sometimes re-ignite) the passions in others, either in favor of or against using weight measurements.

Peter,
Funny you mention that. From reply #21 and reply#22 there is almost a 2 year time span where no one has posted and things get going again. You are right about feel vs science though. The ability to do both is an advantage. One will get you consistancy almost right away and the other takes alot of practice. I would go with following the measurements and science 1st and get a feel for it as you go. They both marry well if you let them. If you already know your way around a kitchen and cooking, you probably know how to get where you want to go with a flavor, texture etc, for those that aren't as comfy in a kitchen, start with the measures and weights and get a feel for it as you go.
Jon
Save A Cow, Eat A Vegan....Totally Organic And Hormone Free!!

Offline JerryMac

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Re: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2008, 08:35:01 AM »
yaddayaddayadda,

"a bad mamajama"  >:D Thanks, first time I've ever been called that one  :-D :-D

Pete,

"people are motivated in different ways by disposition" , "It's not a matter of right or wrong or good or bad"  ;)  You hit the nail on the head  ;D ;D

Yeah I'm still me and still have my beliefs and am really glad to see the discussion continue  :D

Since I've been on this forum I have learned a whole lot and even changed some of my methods, but, I'm still "Artsey Feely" and think I always will be  ;) ;) ;)

Thanks to all here who have contributed to my "Learning", you are a great bunch of Guys & Girls  :-[ :-[

Mangia Bene  :chef:
Jerry

Offline pcampbell

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Re: NY Dough, An ART not a SCIENCE !
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2008, 11:29:45 AM »
I think we all get along just fine.  We all know our pizza is better than most shops, and we're always striving for better and sharing our methods :chef: And of course tastes are so unique... what is amazing to someone is disgusting to another.
Patrick