Author Topic: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated  (Read 1422 times)

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Offline ahmad213

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Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« on: September 01, 2013, 09:05:40 AM »
Hi Pete-zza,

I just wanted to kindly ask for your help as your name appears in many posts and you seem very knowledgable in Pizza Making.  I want to apply your knowledge in food science to overhaul a recipe we have used for so long that is now boring and not progressive enough.

My father has owned a pizza shop in the UK for 18 years now and I am wanting to overhaul the recipe that we use completely.  The dough is flat, and very standard. Since travelling various places I have fallen in love with a variety of well known pizza places.  I love how papa johns pizza is light, chewy and airy and also like the golden crust texture that comes with Pizza hut pizzas.  I want to incorporate both of these qualities in our pizza's.  I want to bring a new lease of life into our takeaway pizzas and hoping you can help please if possible?

Currently we make the pizzas the day before, roll them and place them in the pizza plates to rise before going in a refrigerator until the next day.  Our dough currently seems heavy, 'dense bread like' and not fluffy which I am trying to change.  You seem to have a huge, vast range of knowledge that I hope you could share with me if possible.  We only sell 10" and 12" pizzas in the takeaway.

We make batches of dough according to the days/demand.  Currently we use a automatic mixer with the following ingredients per 1 litre of water;
- White flour - 1800 gram
- Fresh (wet) yeast - 60 grams
- Salt - 30 gram
- Soda - 2 gram
- Sunflower Oil - 0.1/litre

The dough is removed from the mixer once it is a dry and hard consistency.  At this point the dough is not stretchable or very soft but is extensible enough to be rolled and placed in pans.  For a 10" the weight of the dough ball is 300g and for 12 " 400g.  allowed to rise until 3/4 height of the pan and placed in a cooler for the next day. 

The next day the dough is taken out of the cooler and cooked as an order arrives.

I really hope you have the time to help me with this, as I know we are lacking as a business in knowledge of food science.  If you need any more information please just ask.

Many thanks for your time, I really appreciate it.

Moneeb Ahmad


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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2013, 10:16:46 AM »
Moneeb,

I received the three emails that you sent me on this matter and was about to respond and tell you to repost the email on the open forum but now see that you had already done so. I moved the thread early this morning to the Shop Talk board where I believe it more properly belongs. I will shortly be deleting the redundant post you entered on the new members introduction board, possibly when you saw that it disappeared from that board. I am also going to delete the redundant post in the Papa John's clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html. The forum's policy is not to allow redundant posts to be entered.

I appreciate that you singled me out in your post but I want all of our members, possibly including UK members who are more familiar with the UK pizza scene, to respond to your post if they are so inclined. It may take me a while to review what you posted and to respond, so I ask for your patience.

In the meantime, since you mentioned Papa John's in your introductory post, you might want to read that thread. Maybe it will answer some of your questions.

You might also want to register and post your matter on the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewforum.php?f=6. That forum is visited primarily by pizza professionals.

Peter

Offline ahmad213

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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2013, 12:08:46 PM »
Many thanks for your informative reply.  I highly appreciate your help and sorry for so many PM's.

Look forward to hearing from you soon.

Moneeb

Offline ahmad213

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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2013, 12:28:46 PM »
I will be attempting as a baseline tester to make a batch with your 48hr fermentation dough clone.  I will scale up the ingredients x5 to make it to per litre of water.  I will keep you informed next week how that goes.

Moneeb

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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2013, 03:28:05 PM »
Moneeb,

In order to get a better picture of what you are doing, I did some calculations and used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to convert your recipe to baker's percent format. Because of the large numbers, the expanded dough calculating tool could not produce the exact numbers you used for the flour and hydration percents, so I rounded those numbers to the actual numbers. The differences were slight, about a few hundredths of a gram. I also had to so some special calculations and conversions for the sunflower oil since that oil is not one of those included in the expanded dough calculation tool. I also assumed that soda meant baking soda.

This is what I ended up with:

Flour (100%):
Water (55.56%):
CY (3.333%):
Salt (1.66667%):
Vegetable (Sunflower) Oil (4.5085%):
Baking Soda (0.11111%):
Total (165.17928%):
1800 g  |  63.49 oz | 3.97 lbs
1000 g  |  35.28 oz | 2.2 lbs
60 g | 2.12 oz | 0.13 lbs |
30 g | 1.06 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.37 tsp | 1.79 tbsp
81.15 g | 2.86 oz | 0.18 lbs | 6.76 tbsp
2 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
2973.15 g | 104.87 oz | 6.55 lbs | TF = N/A

From what you described, it looks like you are making something like a pan pizza, which is a style that Pizza Hut popularized. Using the dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes you mentioned, I calculated their thickness factors as follows:

10" (300g): TF = (300/28.35)/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.13473
12" (400g): TF = (400/28.35)/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.12475

As it so happens, the pan pizza style is not one that I make, so I may not be the best one to advise you. Also, I am just a home pizza hobbyist with no professional experience. However, I have helped members with some of the math to allow them to adapt existing pan pizza recipes to whatever sizes of pans they have available to make pan pizzas. There are a couple of threads that you may want to read on the subject of pan pizzas. They are the threads at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,213.0.html and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4607.msg38867.html#msg38867. The most relevant post in the latter thread is Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4607.msg38909.html#msg38909. In that post, I tried to come up with a weight of dough using the recipe in the first thread referenced above that was closer to what Pizza Hut used many years ago, before it went to frozen doughs in the U.S. and, I believe, in the UK as well. The thickness factor was somewhat higher than you have been using. It is 0.1429.

The Pizza Hut clone recipe also appears at http://www.pizzamaking.com/panpizza.php.

I am not sure why you are using soda (baking soda) in your dough, so any input you can provide on the reason for such use might be helpful. I experimented with using baking soda for cracker style pizzas but I did not like the aftertaste that the soda produced in the finished crust.

In parallel with your efforts here, you might also want to take a look at the pan pizza dough recipe at the PMQ Recipe Bank at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/Deep-Dish-Pizza/record/57725/. The recipe is designated as deep dish, but it is really a pan pizza recipe. For that recipe, the instructions call for starting the dough on one day and working with it to form shells the next day. Pizza Hut used to do it in the reverse manner, just as you are doing.

The person who is very familiar with the pan style pizza is Tom Lehmann. He is a member here and also at the PMQ Think Tank that I mentioned in my last post. However, as a very busy man, he cannot answer all questions addressed to him on this forum or the PMQTT forum. You might try posing your questions over at the PMQTT and see what responses you get. You can also search the PMQTT archives for posts, including some by Tom, on the pan style pizza.

Peter

Offline ahmad213

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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2013, 03:55:37 PM »
Pete-zza,

Many thanks for taking your time to write such a thorough reply.

We currently have been using the above recipe for a very long time.  I asked my father how long he has been using the recipe and why the recipe as such, both came with no reply!  He has no idea why bicarbonate is used which to me sounds insane! I am the type of person who needs to know what does what, why and for what reason!  Hence the reason i an wanting to revolutionise our takeaways.

I guess I am trying to change the dough recipe to something i personally have enjoyed so much from Papa johns (chewy, tasty dough) and Pizza Hut (golden crispy outer surface).  The recipe I provided you with has no logic behind it, but has been used for so long in the takeaway.  I want to now add some dough protocols, and thus consistency in the dough we sell.  I want some science in the food we make, rather than guess work and being stuck in old ways!

The main dough recipe I am looking to replicate is the PJ clone dough recipe you have formulated to per litre of water (as that is what the workers are now used to when making dough).  That is the 48hr fermentation rate, although our dough will be used the following day once made.  I have a bought a thermometer for the kitchens in which the food is prepared and a food thermometer to copy the temperatures you have posted previously for finished dough, water temp etc.  I have also bought the 'dustinator' blend you have posted.

What would be your recommendation for the dough ball weight for a 10" and 12" size pizza?  Are the 300g and 400g respectively about the right weight?
As the dough is getting kneaded through the mixing machine, what look and extensibility should the dough be when removing the dough?

A huge thanks once again for your time.

Moneeb


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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2013, 05:10:12 PM »
Moneeb,

I assume you are talking about the Papa John's clone dough formulation as set forth at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217. If so, I have extrapolated that formulation to use 1000ml (1 liter, 1000 grams) of water. The expanded formulation is as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (56.5%):
IDY (0.28%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (170.03%):
1769.92 g  |  62.43 oz | 3.9 lbs
1000.00 g  |  35.27 oz | 2.2 lbs
4.96 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.65 tsp | 0.55 tbsp
30.97 g | 1.09 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.55 tsp | 1.85 tbsp
129.2 g | 4.56 oz | 0.28 lbs | 9.48 tbsp | 0.59 cups
74.34 g | 2.62 oz | 0.16 lbs | 6.22 tbsp | 0.39 cups
3009.4 g | 106.15 oz | 6.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl reside compensation

For a 10" pizza, and to be consistent with the PJ dough ball weighs, I would suggest a dough ball weight of around 285-300 grams. For the 12" size, I would use a dough ball weight of around 410 grams.

As you consider the above, you will want to be aware of the fact that I later modified the above dough formulation based on new information that came to my attention and also as a result of further analysis of the PJ Nutrition Facts. One of the changes was to reduce the dough ball weights for the different pizza sizes. However, the dough ball weights for the 10" and 12" sizes suggested above are consistent with the changes to the 14" size. I also suggested using a flour with a protein content of between 13.4-13.6%. Where you are in the UK, I don't think that you should have a problem finding a flour with a protein content of that value. If you would like to see the rest of the changes, including baker's percents, see Reply 585 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg273667.html#msg273667. In your case, you might first try the formulation given above since it has been field tested by the members quite extensively and is one of the favorite PJ clone dough formulations.

Peter

Offline ahmad213

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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2013, 03:55:06 PM »
Peter,

Thanks again for your reply.

Just made my first batch (48hr fermentation) and it was pretty much what i wanted with the taste, texture and chewiness.  You have really done a great job with that recipe.  So thankyou, it is truly fantastic!  You really have nailed it!

The only thing I would want more is for the dough to be fluffier inside.  I was thinking to increase the yeast percentage to make it rise a little more?   By adding more yeast would it make it rise more densely or more fluffier?

Also by raising the yeast would this also allow me to change this recipe to a 24hr fermentation which would suit the business more?

Thanks again Peter,

Moneeb

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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2013, 04:47:40 PM »
Moneeb,

Can you tell me what you baked your recent test pizzas on? You mentioned pans in your opening post. Is that what you used? If so, can you show me a photo of the pan, or link me to a photo?

Also, what kind of oven are you using?

Peter

Offline ahmad213

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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2013, 04:59:16 PM »
Hi Peter,

I will take photos of the pizza pans and the conveyer belt oven tomorrow and post here.

Best wishes,

Moneeb


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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2013, 05:04:22 PM »
Moneeb,

As you may know, in the U.S., Papa John's uses pizza screens or dark anodized perforated disks in their conveyor ovens. Pizza Hut uses pans in its conveyor ovens for its pan style pizzas. Is it your plan to keep using the pans?

Peter

Offline ahmad213

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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2013, 05:14:55 PM »
Dear Peter,

Yes for the distant future we will be using pizza pans unfortunately due to financial resources.  Does this affect the fluffiness of the dough?

Moneeb

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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2013, 05:26:40 PM »
Yes for the distant future we will be using pizza pans unfortunately due to financial resources.  Does this affect the fluffiness of the dough?

Moneeb,

Yes, it does. Before the pizza in the pan can start to bake, the pan itself has to get up to the right temperature. That thermal drag can limit the oven spring and result in a flatter, denser crust. Also, the high levels of oil and sugar in the dough will act to retain moisture in the dough and limit its conversion to steam to cause the crust to expand during the bake. All of this means that it will be necessary to either make changes to the dough formulation to accommodate the use of the pans, or possibly changes in oven temperature and bake time, or maybe a combination of these measures.

Let me think about these issues.

BTW, I discussed a one-day PJ clone dough formulation with an increased yeast level here:

Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60076.html#msg60076

Peter
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 05:30:51 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline ahmad213

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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2013, 08:00:29 AM »
Dear Peter,

Ok I completely understand now the effect pizza pans have on the fluffiness of the dough.  It is a shame that for the near future these will not be able to be changed for a while at least.

Is it actually possible to maintain the flavour, texture of the current dough this fantastic recipe produces but somehow make it fluffy and light?  I do hope so.  If there is anyone who can, I am sure you will be able to Peter  :).  I will be using the 24hr fermentation from now on, many thanks for the heads up.

Best wishes,

Moneeb

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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2013, 01:54:33 PM »
Is it actually possible to maintain the flavour, texture of the current dough this fantastic recipe produces but somehow make it fluffy and light?  I do hope so.....I will be using the 24hr fermentation from now on, many thanks for the heads up.

Moneeb,

At your convenience, you might want to read these two posts from the Papa John's clone thread:

Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58438.html#msg58438, and

Reply 154 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg85880.html#msg85880

As you will see from the above posts, it is possible to increase the amount of yeast, and maybe the added fermentation will produce a more expanded dough that bakes up in a way as to make the crust "fluffy and light", as you put it. However, often the way to achieve the type of crumb you are after is to increase the hydration, along the lines discussed in the above posts. But, all else being equal, the increased hydration requires that you provide enough heat to create the oven spring that will expand the dough fast enough to yield an open and airy crumb. Usually when you make something wetter, it takes more heat to overcome the added wetness. Moreover, in your case, when a pan is used instead of a screen or disk, the temperature needed to produce the open and airy crumb may be higher than you may want or are able to use. For example, if the temperature is raised too much in order to get more oven spring, the bottom crust may brown excessively and even burn before the rest of the pizza, including the top, is fully baked. The reason for this possible outcome is the high amounts of sugar in the dough. You could decrease the amount of sugar and the amount of oil in the dough to allow the dough to expand faster and maybe reduce the likelihood of premature crust browning, but the final crust and crumb will be of a different character from the product you started with, not only from a textural standpoint but also from a flavor standpoint. However, maybe the changes are acceptable to you and your potential customers. The only way to know for sure is to play around with the quantities of the ingredients and see what results you get. I would suggest that you change only one variable at a time. Otherwise, you will never quite know what change produced what results.

As you can see, when your try to take steps to avoid one problem or to achieve certain benefits, you can end up with new problems to solve and other deficencies in the finished product.

Peter

Offline ahmad213

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Re: Pizza Shop in the UK - Advice would be kindly appreciated
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2013, 08:42:53 AM »
Dea Peter,

Thanks hugely for the links.  I will be increasing the hydration level to approximately 62% whilst experimenting by increasing the yeast also.  I will keep you updated with the outcomes and how it affects the crust.  I will see the results and then decrease the amount of oil in the recipe to evaluate the effects.

Many thanks again.

Moneeb