Author Topic: Gluten Strength  (Read 7739 times)

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Offline philipmason

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Gluten Strength
« on: September 07, 2013, 11:51:23 AM »
Hello all,

Like many here at the forum, we have become so engaged in the process of developing a NY style at home. So far, we feel to be 75% there. That 75% would be much lower if we had the authentic NY styles here in Texas, at least where we live.

We still have much more variations to try in my dough and sauce.

One issue we have is the lack of strength in the dough. How we envy and respect Jackie Tran's version:

 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26839.0;attach=132018;image

My formula (we weigh):

Flour (100%):    130.32 g  |  4.6 oz | 0.29 lbs
Water (66.67%):    86.89 g  |  3.06 oz | 0.19 lbs
IDY (.96%):    1.25 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Salt (1.55%):    2.02 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Oil (5.5%):    7.17 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.59 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
Sugar (2.8%):    3.65 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.92 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
Total (177.48%):   231.3 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs | TF = 0.08585

The oil, water, sugar, and yeast is high, the salt low.

We use instant yeast, that has ascorbic acid.

I have varied these and it seems the flavor goes down. Thus my reluctance to change.

I mix the dough in a Kitchen Aid stand mixer:

Flour, water, sugar,  yeast mixed with a paddle on low speed until homogenous. Rest for 20 minutes. Switch to the dough hook, add salt and oil, then mix on low for 5 minutes, then 1/3 of full speed for 8 minutes. Coat with oil, let rise at room temperature for 1 to 3 hours , put in fridge for 24 to 72 hours.

Cook at 650 F for 5 to 6 minutes. Awesome final product. BUT TEARS EASY when forming the pie.

I will , one at a time, conform all the non standard ingredients to standard, then conform all changes into one try.

Seems:

1. Salt increases gluten structure (slows fermentation)
2. Ascorbic acid increases gluten structure
3. Bromated flour increases gluten structure (will not do, not available, possibly toxic)
4. Emulsifiers increases gluten structure
5. Oil decreases gluten structure
6. My experience, cold fermentation does nothing for gluten structure.
7. Not sure about high hydration


We increased salt once, 3%, it was too salty. Maybe I added beyond 3% is a question, human error is always a possibility (especially if an after work/get home beer or two is consumed).

Any ideas on a prioritized approach to stronger dough? Either from the above 7 items, or others?

Maybe I should add the salt when first mixing and not wait?

Thank you gods, and gods to be.




Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2013, 12:44:26 PM »
First of all, that's a very wet dough, plus it has a ton of oil. That's probably why it tears easily.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2013, 01:01:20 PM »
Also, it sounds like you're using less-than-ideal flour; probably something from a grocery store, perhaps with less protein than you want. (Also, that's a ton of sugar.)

If you are using consumer-quality flour, I'd suggest trying about 58% hydration and less than 2% oil. And I don't know if you're bulk fermenting, but these tips are specifically for dough that will not be bulk fermented.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2013, 01:05:53 PM »
.085 TF, KA break flour.

thanks

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2013, 10:19:18 AM »
KA Bread Flour.

Again, just trying to stick mostly with my formula due to the fact we like the final product.

thanks

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2013, 03:37:03 PM »
You seemed to indicate that you hoped for some kind of different results, at least in how the dough feels. Well, you're never gonna get different results by continuing to do the exact same thing over and over. Besides, if you already like the final product you've been getting, then what's the issue?

If you want to experience gluten strength (which I thought was the whole point of starting this thread), then just make a small batch of dough with 56-62% hydration and 0-2% oil. You don't even have to make a pizza out of it. Just make it so you can play with it; so you can learn what you seemed to want to learn. (It's not like it costs anything to make a couple dough balls.) If you want to experience even more gluten strength/complexity than you'd get out of a real NY style dough, then do a bulk ferment before scaling and forming dough balls. Just keep in mind that as soon as you do a bulk ferment, your dough stops being NY style dough. But at least it'll help you experience gluten strength/development, which seems to be your objective.

Also, your regular dough isn't really NY style dough. I'm not saying that to be mean; just saying it to help you.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2013, 05:20:31 PM »
philipmason,

I agree with Ryan's assessment of the tearing problem and the pizza style as well.

The KABF you are using has a rated absorption value of 62%. Operationally, it may be able to take a couple percent more absorption but, at almost 67% hydration, you are considerably higher than even that absorption value. Also, the oil has a wetting effect. If you add the 66.67% and the 5.5% numbers to come up what I often call the "effective hydration", you are at a value of 72.17%.

I would characterize the style of your pizza as a thin American style (think Papa John's) but with a very high hydration value. What you have is unique, and does not closely match any style of pizza that I am aware of. However, what is more important is that you like the pizzas you have been making. However, there may be better ways of conducting gluten tests. For such tests, I would use just flour, water, yeast and salt, and decide what tests you want to perform but changing only one variable at a time.

I moved this thread to the General Pizza Making board.

Peter

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2013, 06:28:28 PM »
Good points all. I am not NY style by definition, so I need to get over it, ha!

I will try a lower hydration, maybe 58% and keep the oil at 5.5%.

Think a 3% salt would add gluten strength?

The problem is tearing during stretching. The 20 minute rest period before kneading has helped.

You all think 58% hydration and 3% salt will help even further with gluten development/strength?

And was thinking adding some ascorbic acid. Any idea on amount of this?

Thank you both


Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2013, 06:33:28 PM »
Interesting Aimless Ryan, you mention bulk fermentation. I have never read on the differences. Can you please explain the pros/cons/differences?

thanks

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2013, 06:52:37 PM »
Good points all. I am not NY style by definition, so I need to get over it, ha!

I will try a lower hydration, maybe 58% and keep the oil at 5.5%.

Think a 3% salt would add gluten strength?

The problem is tearing during stretching. The 20 minute rest period before kneading has helped.

You all think 58% hydration and 3% salt will help even further with gluten development/strength?

And was thinking adding some ascorbic acid. Any idea on amount of this?

Thank you both

FWIW, I think all that oil is probably the biggest contributor to your weak dough problem. It's about 5X what I would expect to see in a NY style dough. You can always brush or drizzle some oil on top as you make the pie for extra oil flavor.

You might also try cutting back on the yeast some. That much is going to release a lot of glutathione which weakens the dough - especially if you up the salt. I wouldn't suggest going straight to 3%. I'd try 2% and 2.5% first.

Personally, I doubt that ascorbic acid will help, but maybe. It wouldn't hurt to try. I'd start with a very small amount and work my way up.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2013, 07:21:51 PM »
philipmason,

I have interpreted your posts and comment to say that you would like to keep your dough recipe intact as much as possible but fix the tearing problem. Lowering the hydration should be a step in that direction. I am not sure you need 5.5% oil but I have made Papa John's clone doughs with a hydration of around 57% and over 7% oil, and I did not experience tearing problems. Salt at 3% will strengthen the gluten structure but the crust may end up being too salty on the palate. In my opinion, you should select salt at a level that is palatable to you. For the type of dough you are making, I think 1.75-2% salt should be enough.

Sometimes when you fix or cure certain problems, you create new ones. So, I look forward to your results with the next iteration of your recipe.

Peter

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2013, 07:43:51 PM »
Thank you TXCraig1. I have heard the glutathione weakens dough, as a result of too much yeast, so I will lower that. And I will up my salt to 2%, and then try very little ascorbic acid, all three different tries, experiment, as we all do.

How much is a little ascorbic acid?


Thanks again Pete-zza

You are correct I tried 3% salt awhile back, too too much salt flavor, will try 2%. Thanks for understanding, taste is subjective, and hybrids are acceptable, sometimes.

Yes, one solution can create another issue.

Experiment on!
 

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2013, 07:49:42 PM »
Just spun a batch with modified 58% hydration, 2% salt per the Lehmann calculator.

Already looks better in the bowl (Kitchen Aid mixer).

I will rest it 20 minutes after mixing, then knead. I know Pete-zza has discussed this that most all do not do this. But it did make a difference in strength several days ago.

I will let one cold ferment 24 hours, the other 48, and will see.

Hope its not too salty, a real killer deal for me.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2013, 08:25:26 PM »
So if the  "effective hydration" is  72.17, what would be the acceptable level of hydration if the oil remains at 5.5%  ?

So you simply add the oil and water percentage to get "effective"?

If IKABF has a rated absorption value of 62%, and oil is 5.5% the water hydration should be 56.5% max?

Thanks Pete-zza.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2013, 09:36:38 PM »
So if the  "effective hydration" is  72.17, what would be the acceptable level of hydration if the oil remains at 5.5%  ?

So you simply add the oil and water percentage to get "effective"?

If IKABF has a rated absorption value of 62%, and oil is 5.5% the water hydration should be 56.5% max?
philipmason,

My general practice when creating a dough formulation that includes oil, and especially a dough formulation for a NY or an American style such as yours, is to have the sum of the hydration percent and the oil percent, which I call the "effective hydration", be equal to the rated absorption of the flour used. That is just a rule of thumb but it is a safe one to use. From that point on, there may be changes but those changes can have a material effect on the extensibility and elasticity of the dough. For example, for the 72.17% effective hydration that you used with the KABF, you can expect some problems. As you have by this time discovered, the problems with tearing that you experienced we're not prevented by the particular mixing/kneading protocol and rest periods you used. In retrospect, the use of a series of stretch and folds might have fixed that problem or at least lessened it. The other alternative is the one that the members who have posted in this thread have collectively recommended, and that you are now in the process of implementing.

I should also mention that not all dough formulations have effective hydrations equal to the rated absorption of the flour used. For example, a cracker style dough can use a high gluten flour with a rated absorption value of 63% yet have a hydration value of 35% and 3% oil. That combination can lead to other kinds of problems, such as being able to make a dough with the desired finished dough characteristics using home mixers that we're not designed to make doughs with low hydration values.

The key to success in cases like these is to understand the relationships between the ingredients for the different types of dough. That comes from study and experience.

Peter


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2013, 09:59:19 PM »
How much is a little ascorbic acid?

I don't know. Maybe Peter has an idea for a good place to start.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2013, 12:53:10 AM »
Interesting Aimless Ryan, you mention bulk fermentation. I have never read on the differences. Can you please explain the pros/cons/differences?

thanks

I guess I was mostly thinking of when you stretch a dough ball into a skin or partially-stretched skin, then try to turn it back into a dough ball, thinking it'll be the same as the original dough ball.

It won't be.

This is an extreme example of the conditions created when you bulk ferment NY style dough. It creates a very elastic, complex gluten structure that you may never be able to stretch to your desired size and thickness.

I'm very anti bulk ferment and anti re-ball for NY style, but I recently had to do it with dough for a pizza party because the fridge I use to store my NY style dough wouldn't go below about 55 degrees, but I didn't know until it was too late. The day of my party I had to decide whether to use my dough balls as normal or re-ball them. Since I had made NY style dough out of three different flours (All Trumps bromated, All Trumps unbromated, and Power flour), I decided to re-ball one of each of the three different dough balls but leave the rest of the dough balls alone.

Several hours later, when I started making the pizzas, I spent at least 15 minutes trying to stretch the re-balled All Trumps bromated dough ball. I intended to make a 14" pizza, but the gluten was so twisted and elastic that nothing I did would allow me to stretch the skin any bigger than about 12". It was really thin with a very puffy outer crust, which I think is very characteristic of most bulk fermented or re-balled "NY style" pizzas (but is nothing like anything you can buy in NYC). Eventually I just accepted that this pizza was not going to be a true NY style pizza. So I topped the skin and baked it.

The pizza actually turned out pretty awesome, but it wasn't NY style, and the pizza was just so much trouble to make.

The other two dough balls (All Trumps unbromated and Power flour) didn't really give me any trouble. That is, they stretched easily and the pizzas probably weren't too much different than they would have turned out if I hadn't needed to re-ball the dough.

I actually learned a lot from this. One thing I learned is that some of the stuff I've been saying about gluten development/structure depends on what flour you use. Some of what I've said is right and wrong at the same time.

Offline scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2013, 01:36:01 AM »
Ryan, you really can't judge re-balling by an overproofed dough that you were forced to re-ball way late in the game.  You have to plan it. Because of the hypersensitivity of gluten during late fermentation, you need to underknead the dough at the start.  Also, in order to allow the dough to relax post re-ball, it's got to have at least 12 hours between re-ball and stretch (I used to say 6, but I think 6 is too little now). You also want to make sure you're re-balling with as few foldovers as possible- the re-ball should be incredibly gentle. Lastly, you really should be using a flour that doesn't have the kind of gluten propensity that AT has (or even Power Flour).  Re-balling develops a lot of gluten- you generally don't want to perform one with flour that has has a propensity towards too much gluten development. There are people on this forum who do re-ball AT, but I wouldn't recommend it.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 01:43:46 AM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2013, 02:43:45 AM »
Let me just toss a few cents into the mix here...

Philipmason, from your original post.
6. My experience is opposite yours.  Cold fermentation strengthens dough.  To what degree I'm not positive.  Extended fermentation, be it cold or not can allow enzymes and acids to degrade the dough weakening the overall gluten matrix, but the crumb tends to get tougher and create a denser texture.  The degree varies due to many other factors.
7. High hydration decreases gluten strength.

Oil - 5.5% is high for a NY style dough.  4% is on the upper end for me.  2-3% can be typical.  It is much harder to make a stellar crust without oil, but 1-2% is a good start.  Work your way upto 5% but don't start there.  Learn to appreciate the difference between no oil, 1-2% oil, 3-4%, and then 5%+ oil.

IDY - 0.96% is typical for a same day emergency dough but not for a 2-3day cold ferment.  I like to use 0.4% and the dough goes into the fridge about 2hours after the yeast was introduced to the water prior to mixing.  You can use less than 0.4% IDY if you want, you just have to bulk it longer or take it out sooner.  The trick is to match your yeast levels to your schedule.

I haven't heard of IDY releasing glutathione.  Craig is probably correct though as he usually is.   I've only heard of the phenomenon in regards to old cake yeast per Tom Lehmann.  If it has been occurring with IDY under my nose, then I haven't been aware of it.

Ryan is correct.   We don't learn by doing the same things.  We learn when we abandon outdated beliefs and test everything for ourselves.   I know you are continuing to experiment so I am just encouraging you in that.

How much ascorbic acid?  Just a small pinch between the fingers for 500-1000gm of dough.  A very tiny amount.  But honestly, you don't need it.  There are plenty of ways to improve gluten strength without going out and finding ascorbic acid. 

Bulking and reballing is less about the style of pizza and more to do with gluten strength.  These measures are different ways of building up strength in a dough which leads to specific end crumb structure.  It's not proper to tell people to not bulk or never reball dough.  It's okay to say its not traditional to NY dough because we are talking mainly about a very specific dough.  Once a member varies from that traditional recipe, hydration, protein content, and mixing method, all bets are off.  One should employ these methods purposefully and as needed to build, maintain, and end up with your desired post bake crumb texture.

Although Scott is generally correct on the topic of reballing, there are exceptions to any rule.  For example.  One of the greatest (non traditional) NY crusts I have ever made was made with HG flour, with a hydration of about mid to high 70%.  The dough was cold fermented for 2 days and the gluten strength built gradually over the course of two days with a final reball 45min prior to baking.  The dough came out of the fridge incredibly slack.  I had two balls and reballed one of them and not the other.  The reballed dough was not hard to open and the gluten strength was so well balanced with the high hydration, that it produced an amazing crust and crumb from the home oven.  Now that was just pure luck at the time. 

I later learned through much experimenting to produce similar textures in lower hydration doughs, using a very different mixing protocol without reballing.  What I am saying here is that it's really hard to recommend or not recommend bulking or reballing within certain time frames without first having considered the whole formula in its entirety.  So should we reball prior to baking and if so when should we do it and how should we do it?  It all really depends on the specifics of the dough.  Unless I know how it's made and even feel the (strength of the) dough, I can only guesstimate at how to fix it. 

Ryan, gluten strength depends on every ingredient in your recipe, not just the strength of the flour.  Every ingredient and every process used during the dough making process from the time it's mixed until baking time, and even how the dough is baked affects gluten strength, and ultimately end crumb structure and texture. 

Chau


 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 03:10:11 AM by Jackie Tran »

Online JD

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2013, 08:34:38 AM »
I'm starting to see a pattern where people are too smart for their own good. Admittedly this happened to me when I first started too, I did a lot of reading & absorbing of information and in hindsight completely skipped the fundamentals of making pizza. 

This post is a good example of what I'm trying to say:


Seems:

1. Salt increases gluten structure (slows fermentation)
2. Ascorbic acid increases gluten structure
3. Bromated flour increases gluten structure (will not do, not available, possibly toxic)
4. Emulsifiers increases gluten structure
5. Oil decreases gluten structure
6. My experience, cold fermentation does nothing for gluten structure.
7. Not sure about high hydration


If you change nothing else in your process and drop your hydration to 58% as Ryan suggested, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. The 58% is only due to the high oil % though, otherwise somewhere around 62% like Pete suggested is better. Once you get the fundamentals down, this is when you should start looking into questions 1-6 to fine tune your dough.

I hope this post isn't taken the wrong way. I have no idea your experience or history of making pizza, but the #7 comment does give a bit of insight. We're all here to learn and I personally am always looking to improve, so I hope my comments help instead of hurt.
Josh


 

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