Author Topic: Gluten Strength  (Read 10573 times)

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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #100 on: September 14, 2013, 11:47:02 AM »
Ah, now we're getting somewhere.  Lose the countertop. It most likely doesn't have the necessary wattage to give you a fast even bake, regardless of how much modifying you do.  A huge part of flavor is browning/charring- and you won't get that with a hacked countertop oven.

You've got a real oven, right?  What temp does it go to and is the broiler in the main compartment or a separate drawer?

You're overthinking the extended ferment  ;D  Months ago, I told you to make a 6 hour dough and  5 day dough (using the right amount of yeast for doubling) and to taste the crusts side by side.  Time them so they are ready to bake at the same time.  Smell each dough before baking- you'll be able to smell the stark difference.

This isn't theoretical.  Longer fermentation allows the protease to break down the proteins in the flour into amino acids.  Amino acids are flavor enhancers- umami. One 6 hour dough and one 5 day dough. Just do it.

The fermentation test will be meaningless, though, if you can't work out a proper oven setup.

A blackstone is a really great investment, but, imo, it's more for those seeking Neapolitan bake times.  If you want to eventually make NP pizza, go for it, but, for your current flavorful NY quest, a home oven that hits 550 with the right hearth will achieve it.

I am getting 650F, I have a quality thermometer. What hearth for the oven?

yes, 550F for my regular oven, the broiler and bake element in same area, no separate broiler

will do side by side 6 hour/5 day ferment.

please explain "using the right amount of yeast for doubling"

specs on Blackstone is 700F, that seems low for Neapolitan, and im at 650F

but it has a convection system and top stone as well as bottom stone

Thank you


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #101 on: September 14, 2013, 11:55:08 AM »
I have gotten my BS over 1000F, no problem.  But that is too hot to bake NP pizza.   And even for NY style, I would recommend a BS over a home oven.  Faster preheat times 10m vs an hour.  More energy efficient.  It won't heat up your kitchen.   Faster recovery times between pizzas.  Less wear and tear on your home oven.  I have had to repair my home oven from too much pizza and bread making. 

The only time I can see the BS being at a disadvantage is in poor weather.  But if you have a garage that should be fine. 

scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #102 on: September 14, 2013, 12:07:56 PM »
I have gotten my BS over 1000F, no problem.  But that is too hot to bake NP pizza.   And even for NY style, I would recommend a BS over a home oven.  Faster preheat times 10m vs an hour.  More energy efficient.  It won't heat up your kitchen.   Faster recovery times between pizzas.  Less wear and tear on your home oven.  I have had to repair my home oven from too much pizza and bread making.

It's still a bit early, but I think a 525 degree home oven with steel plate (and a broiler) can make better NY style pies than an unmodified BS. At least, 4-5 minute pies. The heat in a home oven seems to be more evenly distributed. It might be possible to tweak the chauflector for more even NY bakes, but, until someone does it, a home oven is, imo, the better bet.

Not to mention, a steel plate is about $50 (or less) compared to a $350 BS.

Not that there's anything wrong with having both :)  I think, though, if someone's shooting for NY, they should buy steel first.

There's also the whole size thing. An 18" NY style pizza is better than a 15" one :) and some people's ovens can fit an 18" plate.

And, while cleaning cycles can be hard on ovens,  525 really shouldn't damage an oven over time. This forum has countless members making pizza in 550 degree ovens without any reported breakdowns.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #103 on: September 14, 2013, 12:26:37 PM »
My current home oven is electric and it is weak.  Even with a steel plate which I've yet to try, I can't see it making a better pie than my BS.  Way too much dead space.   The BSs heat is easy to balance with simple mods and possible even without mods. Once you start using yours you'll see Scott.  ;D  I'd rather have a great 15" pie than a mediocre 18" anyday.  I use to toss out more mediocre pizza than you would believe.  I've baked in various ovens thoroughly.  You'll have a hard time finding a more versatile and efficient oven than the BS.  It is a worthwhile investment for the pizza hobbyist.  Had it been available when I started it would have saved me $ from building a mbe, lbe, buying various quarry tiles and firebrick for the homeoven, home oven repair, cracked glass table and other pizza mishaps and related cost.  :-D

My Viking gas oven required repairs after a year of constant use and many experiments without mods.  At a max dialed temp of 550F.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 12:33:03 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #104 on: September 14, 2013, 12:40:47 PM »
So an improvement from bromated to non bromated makes a huge difference for you. Not serving to guests vs serving, that's huge.

Is it mostly structure/texture? No flavor difference?

The thing is, I don't know if that was specifically because it's bromated or because it's just a good flour for other reasons. Unless Dakotana or "Harvest Something" is bromated, I've probably never used any bromated flour other than All Tumps. Next time I need to get some high gluten flour, I think I'll try to get a different bromated flour (from Scott's list of good NY style flours). That probably won't be anytime soon, though.

One thing I've learned lately by trying all these different flours is that there is a lot of flavor difference between flours. Also, it's hard for me to say exactly what the overall difference is, because the differences I've seen may result more from the protein level than the bromate. The only thing I can say for sure right now is that my guests have overwhelmingly preferred bromated All Trumps NY style pizzas to any of the NY style pizzas I've made with the four unbromated flours I've tried recently. (So have I.)
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #105 on: September 14, 2013, 01:02:42 PM »
Even with a steel plate which I've yet to try, I can't see it making a better pie than my BS.  Way too much dead space.

Dead space shmead space :) Heat rises. In a home oven, it may take a second longer to reach the top of the oven, but it's not like it's flying out the front door or through the walls.

If we didn't already have a Neapolitan Blackstone challenge, I might suggest a NY challenge  :-D  I'm not saying that a BS can't do a great NY pie, but I have yet to see one that comes close to some of the NY pies I've seen on steel. Until I do, I'm a little skeptical.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 01:04:56 PM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #106 on: September 14, 2013, 01:14:39 PM »
Lol. Scott you're in a constant state of skepticism.  Go ahead and start a BS vs Steel NY bake thread.  Ill be sure to make a few submissions.  ;D

scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #107 on: September 14, 2013, 01:27:10 PM »
Me skeptical? I have plenty of faith in steel  :-D

Seriously, though, you know all your famous NY WFO pies?  I've been thinking about this and watching results- I'm not sure you can recreate those in a BS. The flame is too close and the rim browns differently.  Perhaps if you go down to 13", but I think the side IR will be too intense on a 15" pie, even with the regulator dialed down.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #108 on: September 14, 2013, 01:38:25 PM »
My methods have changed since and I'm using a different flour now.  I just cracked open a 50lb bag of occident flour.  I was using Sams club (con agra) HG bromated flour then.  Also I no longer have access to my wfo to do a side by side comparison but my latest results in the BS are just as good if not better.  I've been doing 12" tester pies but will make you a 15" pie soon.  I make a killer 4min pie now, as good as my old 5min plus pies.  I would say in a blind taste test, I wouldn't be able to distinguish between my NY WFO and BS pies.  And the BS is even easier, quicker to temps, and provide a more consistent results than my wfo.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 01:40:57 PM by Jackie Tran »


scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #109 on: September 14, 2013, 01:53:12 PM »
Occident, beautiful.  I look forward to your 15"  pies  ;D

Unlike the Craig challenge, which I thought/think is a fun way to encourage members to push the BS boundaries, I've got a pony in this race.  If, for a 15" pie, you can produce the kind of browning you were able to do with your WFO pies, then I'll switch from steel.

I really hope I lose this one.  Right now, I'm seeing Neapolitan on the BS in my future, but it's hard to pull away from steel for NY.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #110 on: September 14, 2013, 02:05:25 PM »
Scott I thought I had better photos on my cell phone but these will have to do for now.  A bake from a few weeks ago.  You can see the darkened crust in the background slices.  All the char you can handle.  As a matter of fact NY is easier to do in a BS than a wfo as it is much easier to dial in top heat both ways.   Btw, this is closer to a coal style pie but point remains..

Offline mbrulato

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #111 on: September 14, 2013, 02:53:14 PM »
The thing is, I don't know if that was specifically because it's bromated or because it's just a good flour for other reasons. Unless Dakotana or "Harvest Something" is bromated, I've probably never used any bromated flour other than All Tumps. Next time I need to get some high gluten flour, I think I'll try to get a different bromated flour (from Scott's list of good NY style flours). That probably won't be anytime soon, though.

One thing I've learned lately by trying all these different flours is that there is a lot of flavor difference between flours. Also, it's hard for me to say exactly what the overall difference is, because the differences I've seen may result more from the protein level than the bromate. The only thing I can say for sure right now is that my guests have overwhelmingly preferred bromated All Trumps NY style pizzas to any of the NY style pizzas I've made with the four unbromated flours I've tried recently. (So have I.)

I tried a few searches and could not find the thread with the above mentioned list of suggested flours for NY style.  I know what one on the list is, but curious to see the rest.  Can anyone help me?

Thanks,
Mary Ann
Mary Ann

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #112 on: September 14, 2013, 07:48:15 PM »
Mary Ann,

I believe that this post by Scott lists the flours he is currently recommending:

Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25988.msg262315/topicseen.html#msg262315

Peter

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #113 on: September 14, 2013, 09:09:33 PM »
Dead space shmead space :) Heat rises. In a home oven, it may take a second longer to reach the top of the oven, but it's not like it's flying out the front door or through the walls.

If we didn't already have a Neapolitan Blackstone challenge, I might suggest a NY challenge  :-D  I'm not saying that a BS can't do a great NY pie, but I have yet to see one that comes close to some of the NY pies I've seen on steel. Until I do, I'm a little skeptical.
Scott, can you tell me the thickness of the steel you use?

I tried a cast iron pizza pan with some success, I guess it to be 3/8" thick, but cast iron does not have the thermo properties of steel. I assume steel would hold more energy, with cast iron being less dense.

Thank you.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #114 on: September 14, 2013, 09:18:23 PM »
Scott I thought I had better photos on my cell phone but these will have to do for now.  A bake from a few weeks ago.  You can see the darkened crust in the background slices.  All the char you can handle.  As a matter of fact NY is easier to do in a BS than a wfo as it is much easier to dial in top heat both ways.   Btw, this is closer to a coal style pie but point remains..

Beautiful!

Jackie,

Is that semolia I see on the crust bottom? I would guess not cornmeal.

Awesome rim!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #115 on: September 14, 2013, 09:25:04 PM »
Scott, can you tell me the thickness of the steel you use?

I tried a cast iron pizza pan with some success, I guess it to be 3/8" thick, but cast iron does not have the thermo properties of steel. I assume steel would hold more energy, with cast iron being less dense.

Thank you.

The thermal properties of low carbon steel and cast iron are very similar. Cast iron is often a bit more conductive, but the density and specific heat capacity are generally pretty similar.

I'd bet your cast iron pan is closer to 1/4" thick.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #116 on: September 14, 2013, 09:27:38 PM »
Btw, this is closer to a coal style pie but point remains..

What is a coal-style pie? I've eaten at Grimaldi's, Pasty's, and Luzzo's - all coal and next to nothing in common.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #117 on: September 15, 2013, 08:51:23 AM »
Beautiful!

Jackie,

Is that semolia I see on the crust bottom? I would guess not cornmeal.

Awesome rim!

It is cornmeal.  I have used both and see little difference. 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #118 on: September 15, 2013, 09:00:36 AM »
What is a coal-style pie? I've eaten at Grimaldi's, Pasty's, and Luzzo's - all coal and next to nothing in common.

I was using the term synonymously with a New Haven style pizza referencing just the darkness of the crust. 

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #119 on: September 15, 2013, 09:53:42 AM »
The thermal properties of low carbon steel and cast iron are very similar. Cast iron is often a bit more conductive, but the density and specific heat capacity are generally pretty similar.

I'd bet your cast iron pan is closer to 1/4" thick.

Yes, 1/4". I do remember the almost exact words about carbon steel/cast iron form  my boss (mechanical engineer) about 4 months a go. I ask him the same question . I was very surprised that they are similar.

However, I assume a thicker steel would be better?

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #120 on: September 15, 2013, 10:13:24 AM »
Anybody experienced or heard of the oven, Nemco Model 6210 ?

http://www.nemcofoodequip.com/products/ovens-boiling-unit/countertop-ovens

Specs state up to 700F. Looks to be about $350. No stones. But why couldn't you add one or two?

It's electric, 120 VAC, 1800 watts.

The wattage would be 15 amps, so probably have to be on a 20 amp circuit.

They also have a 700 F counter top oven that goes to 700F, model 6205 (120 V), 6205-240 ( 240 V). Look at the difference in preheat times for the two ( 60 min/15 min)

http://www.nemcofoodequip.com/products/ovens-boiling-unit/countertop-pizza-ovens

And they basically state the 240 V model much faster/better.

It is double deck, and has two stones, about $950 tho.

I bet that bottom surface better of the two, never know tho.

http://www.nemcofoodequip.com/products/ovens-boiling-unit/countertop-pizza-ovens

To me, electric better than gas, plug in anywhere, no tanks to refill, smaller,  unless you get the 240 V model, be baking pizzas in your laundry room, ha!

Also, any body ever tried a pizza on a steel, and a stone above it or any other combo in a home oven??

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #121 on: September 15, 2013, 01:42:20 PM »
Anybody experienced or heard of the oven, Nemco Model 6210 ?

http://www.nemcofoodequip.com/products/ovens-boiling-unit/countertop-ovens

Specs state up to 700F. Looks to be about $350. No stones. But why couldn't you add one or two?

When I was in the food business many years ago, long before I'd ever heard of Neapolitan pizza, I sold par-baked pizza crusts and toppings (in addition to all sorts of other food items). I would give those ovens away to bars, golf courses, and other places that had no kitchens if they agreed to use my crusts and toppings. They work very well for what amounts to baking a frozen pizza. I have my doubts if it would be good for much else. You are definitely not going to put a stone in it let alone two.
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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #122 on: September 15, 2013, 09:36:59 PM »
understand. thanks

Offline solidusraven

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #123 on: September 16, 2013, 10:44:05 AM »
Best advice I can give you is to knit the dough after making it. If mixing by hand make sure that you let the dough rest in between mixing the dough. The end result should be a smooth looking dough. After you mix for 1-3 min, let the dough rest, mix 1-3 minutes, let the dough rest then you should be able to fold the dough up until the dough has a nice structure. If I ferment the dough over 3 days I will usually knit the dough again and let it rest and store.

scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #124 on: September 16, 2013, 10:52:12 AM »
Philip, 1800 watts is a hair dryer. As I said before, stay away from countertops.  We've had a few handy members successfully hack their countertops to produce great pizzas, but it's not without significant money and time. For NY style, a home oven with steel plate or a blackstone are monumentally easier and less expensive.


 

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