Author Topic: Gluten Strength  (Read 6902 times)

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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #120 on: September 15, 2013, 10:13:24 AM »
Anybody experienced or heard of the oven, Nemco Model 6210 ?

http://www.nemcofoodequip.com/products/ovens-boiling-unit/countertop-ovens

Specs state up to 700F. Looks to be about $350. No stones. But why couldn't you add one or two?

It's electric, 120 VAC, 1800 watts.

The wattage would be 15 amps, so probably have to be on a 20 amp circuit.

They also have a 700 F counter top oven that goes to 700F, model 6205 (120 V), 6205-240 ( 240 V). Look at the difference in preheat times for the two ( 60 min/15 min)

http://www.nemcofoodequip.com/products/ovens-boiling-unit/countertop-pizza-ovens

And they basically state the 240 V model much faster/better.

It is double deck, and has two stones, about $950 tho.

I bet that bottom surface better of the two, never know tho.

http://www.nemcofoodequip.com/products/ovens-boiling-unit/countertop-pizza-ovens

To me, electric better than gas, plug in anywhere, no tanks to refill, smaller,  unless you get the 240 V model, be baking pizzas in your laundry room, ha!

Also, any body ever tried a pizza on a steel, and a stone above it or any other combo in a home oven??


Online TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #121 on: September 15, 2013, 01:42:20 PM »
Anybody experienced or heard of the oven, Nemco Model 6210 ?

http://www.nemcofoodequip.com/products/ovens-boiling-unit/countertop-ovens

Specs state up to 700F. Looks to be about $350. No stones. But why couldn't you add one or two?


When I was in the food business many years ago, long before I'd ever heard of Neapolitan pizza, I sold par-baked pizza crusts and toppings (in addition to all sorts of other food items). I would give those ovens away to bars, golf courses, and other places that had no kitchens if they agreed to use my crusts and toppings. They work very well for what amounts to baking a frozen pizza. I have my doubts if it would be good for much else. You are definitely not going to put a stone in it let alone two.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #122 on: September 15, 2013, 09:36:59 PM »
understand. thanks

Offline solidusraven

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #123 on: September 16, 2013, 10:44:05 AM »
Best advice I can give you is to knit the dough after making it. If mixing by hand make sure that you let the dough rest in between mixing the dough. The end result should be a smooth looking dough. After you mix for 1-3 min, let the dough rest, mix 1-3 minutes, let the dough rest then you should be able to fold the dough up until the dough has a nice structure. If I ferment the dough over 3 days I will usually knit the dough again and let it rest and store.

Online scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #124 on: September 16, 2013, 10:52:12 AM »
Philip, 1800 watts is a hair dryer. As I said before, stay away from countertops.  We've had a few handy members successfully hack their countertops to produce great pizzas, but it's not without significant money and time. For NY style, a home oven with steel plate or a blackstone are monumentally easier and less expensive.

Online scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #125 on: September 16, 2013, 11:00:22 AM »
You can see the darkened crust in the background slices.  All the char you can handle.

Actually, Chau, that level of color on the rim is what I believe the BS likes to do (especially with larger pies), and that's what I'm trying avoid, even on NH pies.

Philip, I use and recommend 1/2" steel plate.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 11:02:28 AM by scott123 »

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #126 on: September 16, 2013, 11:01:46 AM »
Best advice I can give you is to knit the dough after making it. If mixing by hand make sure that you let the dough rest in between mixing the dough. The end result should be a smooth looking dough. After you mix for 1-3 min, let the dough rest, mix 1-3 minutes, let the dough rest then you should be able to fold the dough up until the dough has a nice structure. If I ferment the dough over 3 days I will usually knit the dough again and let it rest and store.

Great advise. I have not kneaded the dough after a 24 or 72 hour ferment in the refrigerator, that could be my tearing problems.

Is that common practice?

Also, resting I do, I mix, let rest 20 minutes.

thanks!

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #127 on: September 16, 2013, 11:03:24 AM »
Philip, 1800 watts is a hair dryer. As I said before, stay away from countertops.  We've had a few handy members successfully hack their countertops to produce great pizzas, but it's not without significant money and time. For NY style, a home oven with steel plate or a blackstone are monumentally easier and less expensive.

a home oven with steel plate, 1/2".  Will do.

So you preheat, bake, then move up to top and broil?

Online scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #128 on: September 16, 2013, 11:06:20 AM »
Great advise. I have not kneaded the dough after a 24 or 72 hour ferment in the refrigerator, that could be my tearing problems.

Is that common practice?

If a dough has fermented too long and has lost too much of it's structure- way too long, like more than 3 days past when you were expecting to use it, then a re-ball and/or a stretch and fold can help bring it back to life, but kneading a fully fermented dough is neither common practice nor is it recommended.

Online scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #129 on: September 16, 2013, 11:08:48 AM »
a home oven with steel plate, 1/2".  Will do.

So you preheat, bake, then move up to top and broil?


You broil as the pizza is being baked on the pre-heated plate. In order for the broiler to be effective, the plate has to be on a higher shelf- about 6" from the broiler.

My recipe covers a lot of this:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.msg206639.html#msg206639

If you follow this closely, I sincerely don't think you'll be complaining about flavor.


Offline solidusraven

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #130 on: September 16, 2013, 11:25:27 AM »
Great advise. I have not kneaded the dough after a 24 or 72 hour ferment in the refrigerator, that could be my tearing problems.

Is that common practice?

Also, resting I do, I mix, let rest 20 minutes.

thanks!

It may be uncommon to most people who have not baked bread but only pizza. Some bread bakers know how important gluten is and they can tell by the structure of the dough if gluten is strong. Taking a piece of the dough and stretching it gives you an idea and I have done this many many times. If it broke off easily (never does), I then knit the dough by flattening it then I fold it, let it rest for 2 min, then do this again about 4 times. Then I store the dough. This does not ever mess with the fermentation process as long as you don't leave it outside in room temperature for a long time which you shouldn't need to or should ever need to.

Offline solidusraven

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #131 on: September 16, 2013, 11:28:59 AM »
Another thing is how you are handling the pizza. Pizza with a weaker gluten structure will break but make sure that you let the dough rest when appropriate. Meaning that you let it out at least 1.5 hours after you remove it from the refrigerator. When you stretch the pizza if you are finding that the dough is giving you a hard time to stretch it then you need to let it rest then start again by stretching it by pushing the dough in counter clockwise motion from the outside and the inside. Then right before you start stretching it by hand give it a lil bit of rest time then start stretching it right above your knuckles or whichever method you use.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #132 on: September 16, 2013, 11:36:27 AM »
If a dough has fermented too long and has lost too much of it's structure- way too long, like more than 3 days past when you were expecting to use it, then a re-ball and/or a stretch and fold can help bring it back to life, but kneading a fully fermented dough is neither common practice nor is it recommended.

Understand

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #133 on: September 16, 2013, 11:37:48 AM »
You broil as the pizza is being baked on the pre-heated plate. In order for the broiler to be effective, the plate has to be on a higher shelf- about 6" from the broiler.

My recipe covers a lot of this:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.msg206639.html#msg206639

If you follow this closely, I sincerely don't think you'll be complaining about flavor.


Only a 3 minute total cook time?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #134 on: September 16, 2013, 11:46:57 AM »
Actually, Chau, that level of color on the rim is what I believe the BS likes to do (especially with larger pies), and that's what I'm trying avoid, even on NH pies.

Philip, I use and recommend 1/2" steel plate.

Scott, getting a light color rim in the BS is not a problem.   All I would have to do is remove the chauflector and reduce the flame for baking.  You can reduce the flame to the point where it barely comes up the side of the plate or even stays under the plate completely.   The coloration between top and bottom will vary depending on the hearth temp that you load at and the size of the flame.  I can show you on the next pie but it would produce a subpar pie IMO. 

Online scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #135 on: September 16, 2013, 11:51:33 AM »
Chau, if you reduce the flame that much will the middle of the pizza still bake quickly enough?

I wouldn't want you to suffer through subpar pizza ;) but my NY (and NH) rims have considerably less color than that.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #136 on: September 16, 2013, 12:06:33 PM »
Chau, if you reduce the flame that much will the middle of the pizza still bake quickly enough?

I wouldn't want you to suffer through subpar pizza ;) but my NY (and NH) rims have considerably less color than that.

Yes, the middle of the pizza will bake just fine b/c 2/3 of the flame (when high) is under the stone.  When the flame is low, the majority of it is under the stone.  The rotation and the air gap helps distribute the heat pretty evenly across the bottom.   I was half kidding about the subpar pizza since we all have our preferences.   

The point I was really trying to convey is this.  I like a crispy dark bottom and top crust.  For my dough, it is loaded at 675-700F floor temp, with a smallish flame going.  Just enough flame to get a dark top crust in 4 minutes of baking.   BTW Scott, I am now abandoning my 5-6min ideal bake time and going with your 4min.   I've made the switch since I learned how to adjust my dough for a crispier effect at a lower bake time.  But that's another discussion.  Another reason for the new bench mark is that the Stella cheese I use gives a better melt at 4min as oppose to 5-6min where it can dry out a bit. 

Anyway, back to the crust coloration discussion.  If I were to turn down the flame to get a light color rim in a 4 min bake, then to balance the top and bottom color, I would also have to lower the load temp.  Maybe 625F in the Blackstone oven, I am not sure.  This may affect the explosiveness of the rim to an extent and will also affect the crispiness to the bottom that I like so much.  For my dough, changing the way I bake it to give a less brown look will definitely change the texture of the crust and crumb.  That's why I was saying it would make a subpar pie.  Not that those characteristics that you like make a subpar pie.  Everyone has a preference and I respect that. 
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 12:09:49 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #137 on: September 16, 2013, 06:31:02 PM »
I have gotten my BS over 1000F, no problem.  But that is too hot to bake NP pizza.   And even for NY style, I would recommend a BS over a home oven.  Faster preheat times 10m vs an hour.  More energy efficient.  It won't heat up your kitchen.   Faster recovery times between pizzas.  Less wear and tear on your home oven.  I have had to repair my home oven from too much pizza and bread making. 

The only time I can see the BS being at a disadvantage is in poor weather.  But if you have a garage that should be fine.

The specs state 700 F for the blackstone. What is the max dial temp? You say you get 1,000F?

For only $400, and the reasons you mentioned above, yes, get the heat out of the house!

Does the Blackstone give any smoked flavor?

Can a TF .085 be cooked in 4 mins or less, given 62% effective hydration on a blackstone?

Would seem the smaller the diameter of the pie the less black/browning of the outer top crust.

 Can you explain the basics quickly of  "I learned how to adjust my dough for a crispier effect at a lower bake time."?

Is 4 minute bake time result in more taste than 6 minutes?

thanks








Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #138 on: September 17, 2013, 05:28:30 PM »
What is the max dial temp? You say you get 1,000F?
There is a temp dial on the face of the oven that goes from Min to Max.  I'm not sure what the max dial temp is.  You can dial it upto Max and the oven gets very hot over time.  Yes you heard me correctly.  I have gotten the floor temp above 1000F.  My temp gauge stops registering after that.

Does the Blackstone give any smoked flavor?
No, but neither does a WFO as far as pizza goes.

Can a TF .085 be cooked in 4 mins or less, given 62% effective hydration on a blackstone?
Yes.  Would I recommend it if it could not?  ;D

Would seem the smaller the diameter of the pie the less black/browning of the outer top crust.
It would seem so, but you really need to bake pies in it to understand how it works and how to tweak it. 
Theorizing and postulating on how the oven works has proven to be effective. 

Can you explain the basics quickly of  "I learned how to adjust my dough for a crispier effect at a lower bake time."?

Philip, I have a problem where I can't quickly explain anything.  I hinted at my technique in reply #97

Is 4 minute bake time result in more taste than 6 minutes?
Taste is subjective.  A difference in bake time usually gives different textural qualities to the crust, cheese, and toppings.  If you equate a difference in texture to a difference in taste, as some might, then yes.  But otherwise no.   It will generally and for the most part taste the same, but have variations in textures, which make it better or worse for me. 

chau

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #139 on: September 17, 2013, 07:51:08 PM »
Thanks, found a Blackstone on-line, less than $400.

Really appears the Blackstone is the best value for many. High temp, low price, fast pe-heat, and all mess/heat outside.

Too bad there is not one in electric, however, 60,000 BTU's would equate to over 17,000 watts. About ten hair dryers. Not practical at home, unless you have a handy 100 amp, 240 VAC feed laying around.

Study time for reply # 97, yes.

I have studied scott123's suggestions, they are in play tonight. Reply # 97 tomorrow.

Thread is awesome

 



 

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