Author Topic: Gluten Strength  (Read 7712 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2013, 10:11:03 AM »
philipmason,

I apparently read your opening post too fast and missed the fact that you put the bulk fermented dough in the refrigerator, as opposed to divided and rounded dough balls. Ryan was more observant than I and properly discussed some of the consequences of doing a bulk cold fermentation. But, as I noted previously, if you like your recipe as much as you indicated, then the objective might be to make some changes but keep them at a minimum and cross your fingers that the changes won't create other problems or otherwise reduce the appeal of the dough recipe to you. When members love or like something a lot, I prefer to find ways of retaining as many of the things that the members like. Failing than, then other options perhaps have to be considered.

As far as ascorbic acid is concerned, as Chau noted, a pinch should be sufficient. Millers, such as General Mills, for example, typically use ascorbic acid in some of their flours (about 7 or 8 of them) at a rate of about 25-55ppm (parts per million). The higher end of that range is usually for the higher protein flours, and vice versa. There are ways of calculating how much ascorbic acid to use in any given case, but for the amount that you would use it is so small that it is not worth calculating the exact amount to use and, instead, use a pinch. I personally am not a fan or advocate of using ascorbic acid in a home setting. I experimented with using ascorbic acid when I ran many of my Papa John's clone experiments. I did not notice a difference. I used the ascorbic acid simply because the flour that PJ used at the time was supplemented with ascorbic acid. As with the other major nationwide pizza chains, PJ used (and still uses) ascorbic acid in its doughs as a bromate substitute. That avoids problems in California where bromates are outlawed or are otherwise subject to strict reporting and noticing requirements. Notably, General Mills calls many of its flours with ascorbic acid "West Coast" flours.

The member who has done the most and best work on the forum on the use of ascorbic acid is scott r. Members who are interested in using ascorbic acid in their doughs would do well to search his posts where he has discussed the subject. His posts on this matter are very good and very informative. But, that said, I do not see much merit to using the ascorbic acid in your dough. It won't hurt anything unless you decide to go hog wild and use too much of it. You should also keep in mind that pure ascorbic acid, usually in powder form, is quite expensive. And a bottle is likely to last you your entire life at the rate you would use it to make pizza dough. Some people use ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) tablets and just grind them into a powder. But most such tablets include fillers and other additives. They are not pure ascorbic acid.

As for the glutathione matter, under normal conditions the leaching of glutathione out of the yeast should not be a problem. From my reading and research, the release of glutathione usually occurs with fresh yeast that is frozen or otherwise temperature abused. Usually it is by accident, such as a malfunctioning cooler, or out of ignorance. Glutathione release can also occur if the yeast is rehydrated and the water is too cold. Even when the water of rehydration is of the proper temperature, yeast can release glutathione if the yeast rehydration period is excessive, typically in excess of 15 minutes. I believe that there can also be problems in certain frozen dough applications, especially those using fresh yeast. There is an interesting column on glutathione at http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_6DRYYE.PDF.

Please keep us informed of your next set of test results.

Peter


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2013, 10:55:08 AM »
Scott, I'm pretty sure you have used both All Trumps bromated and All Trumps unbromated. You too, Chau? Anyone else? If so, I'd love to hear how your experience compares to mine.

First important detail, I guess, is that I've gone through at least a few hundred lbs of All Trumps bromated over the years. I am very familiar with this flour. I know what to expect from it, and I pretty much always get what I expect.

Conversely, I think I've only made two pizzas out of All Trumps unbromated, and one was made of reballed dough in an attempt to save the life of a dough I'd usually be inclined to throw out. (By the way, I didn't use any of the dough that day that hadn't been reballed, which I think included 2 AT bromated dough balls, 1 AT unbromated dough ball, and 1 Power flour dough ball. I think I did use one other AT bromated dough ball that day, which was a semi-emergency dough that fermented overnight in a different refrigerator.)

My first experience with All Trumps unbromated: Even though I did 58% hydration + 1.5% oil (compared to 60% + 1.5% for AT bromated), the unbromated dough was much softer and considerably more extensible than AT bromated. It did not feel like a remotely similar flour. It felt wet, and I was worried that I might have a lot of trouble getting it off the peel, then getting it to fit on my 15.75" stone, particularly because I have to launch it as quickly as possible (so I don't lose all my top heat) since I bake my NY style pizzas in an unmodded grill.

I didn't expect much from this pizza, but I'm surprised to say I ended up liking it. However, a friend said she thought the crust had a weird taste, which I didn't detect that day but did detect with the only other AT unbromated pizza I've made (the reball pizza, a week later).

So here's my impression of AT unbromated, compared to AT bromated:

1) Feels wet, even with 2% lower hydration than AT bromated (which felt stiff, of course).
2) Doesn't feel much like high gluten flour.
3) Has a weird taste.

If this is representative of AT unbromated flour, I really can't figure out why they call it All Trumps. Again, I'm very curious to hear other people's assessments of AT bromated vs. AT unbromated.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 11:21:57 AM by Aimless Ryan »

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2013, 11:03:15 AM »
Conclusions since may last reply:

 Pete-zza

"The sum of the hydration percent and the oil percent, which I call the "effective hydration", be equal to the rated absorption of the flour
 used"

Yes, I will use that from now on. My batch last night would exceed that 58 + 5.5 = 63.5. This implies if I don't change the oil%, water should be max 56.5%.

thanks

Aimless Ryan

"It (bulk ferment) creates a very elastic, complex gluten structure that you may never be able to stretch"

Good info.

scott123

"in order to allow the dough to relax post re-ball, it's got to have at least 12 hours between re-ball and stretch"

Also, good rebuttal info

Jackie Tran

1. Cold fermentation strengthens dough
2. High hydration decreases gluten strength ( so I am on a good path by lowering hydration)
3. Start experimenting with lower % oil, then work up to %5 and tell the difference.
4. Too much yeast for cold ferment, OK for warm, quick ferment. ( sometimes I use this within three hours of mixing/kneading, and I can
    not tell the difference in taste or structure).
5. Keep experimenting if you have issues, change!!!
6. How much ascorbic acid?  Just a small pinch between the fingers for 500-1000gm of dough
7. Bulking and reballing is less about the style of pizza and more to do with gluten strength
8. gluten strength depends on every ingredient in your recipe, not just the strength of the flour

Hows does the baking style affect the gluten strength? I bake at 650F, 5 to 6 minutes, 11".

Excellent!

JD

1. Keep fundamentals of making pizza a priority, then change the lesser items after. Yes.
1. 58 % hydration, yes tried it, will try 56.5 later in week,

thanks

Pete-zza

1. Ascorbic acid probably does very little.
2. under normal conditions the leaching of glutathione out of the yeast should not be a problem

yes!


Well, the general feeling is hydration level and oil level, and keep changing/experimenting . Yes maybe I can change it it not afffect my final product, which we really love.

I am surprised ascorbic acid has little affect, even though the big guys are using it to replace bromine. Interesting.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2013, 11:13:36 AM »
Ryan, I have very little experience using AT bromated flour and no experience with AT unbromated flour.  However I have used Con Agra's bromated versus unbromated flour and your experience is similar to mine.  The unbromated version, a seemingly weaker dough that requires a  touch less water, a bit more gluten building, and possibly a little less lift in the end crumb.  And that's if all else is kept the same. 


I have also played around with using Ascorbic acid in pizza dough, and I too noticed very little difference.  When making baguette rolls, I did notice that the asorbic acid did have a muting effect on the browning of the crust, which can be made up with sugar, eggs, or milk.   It wasn't drastic but it was there.

Chau

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2013, 11:44:15 AM »
I mis informed, I usually either warm ferment for an hour or two then cold ferment, but the cold ferment is always split into individual balls.

Mostly bulk warm ferment the initial two hours, then individual cold for 24 to 48 hours.

Last night I split into balls immediately and cold fermented one, and warm fermented one for two hours, then cold.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2013, 05:58:29 PM »
Also, is it better to warm ferment for an hour or so before placing the dough in the refrigerator for a 24 to 72 hour cold ferment after mix/knead?

I just noticed the one ball I warm fermented after kneading for two hours, then placed in fridge for 24 hours has less of a good smell than the one ball I placed in fridge directly after kneading. So the smell of the cold only ferment smells better.



Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2013, 06:05:55 PM »
Also, is it better to warm ferment for an hour or so before placing the dough in the refrigerator for a 24 to 72 hour cold ferment after mix/knead?

It's better not to place the dough in the refrigerator at all.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2013, 07:31:29 PM »
thanks TXCraig1.

I almost believe warm ferment, after trying many cold ferments, zero structure or taste difference. Many times I do the "emergency dough". Three hours warm ferment.

Please tell me your warm ferment time and temperature TXCraig1

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2013, 08:02:33 PM »
Seems Pete-zza made a similar pie, thicker though but high oil and yeast, less water.

He did not like it much.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg17203.html#msg17203

crumb crust. Mine is not that way though.

Thanks Pete-zza

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2013, 08:03:40 PM »
Should the water be heated or not? Anyone have experiences both ways?
thanks


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2013, 09:36:57 PM »
thanks TXCraig1.

I almost believe warm ferment, after trying many cold ferments, zero structure or taste difference. Many times I do the "emergency dough". Three hours warm ferment.

Please tell me your warm ferment time and temperature TXCraig1

Sourdough(Ischia) - 48h@62-64F
IDY - 24h@64-66F
Pizza is not bread.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2013, 09:49:06 PM »
difficult to get that temperature continuous unless you have a cellar. But very possible.

Excellent knowledge. Knowledge rules.

thank you so so much fellow Texan, TXCraig1
 

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2013, 10:35:20 PM »
difficult to get that temperature continuous unless you have a cellar. But very possible.



Here is how I do it: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.0.html
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2013, 10:36:30 PM »
fellow Texan

What part of town do you live in?
Pizza is not bread.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2013, 09:14:29 AM »
I live near The Woodlands. Built a house on an acre in the sticks 16 years ago , now the sticks are nothing but neighborhoods. Progress I guess, but I prefer woods.

Hey, read through your post "Simple and Effective Bulk Ferment Set-up w/ Temperature Profile", love it. I am a BSEE, and am always designing/building my own inventions. nice.

I was a little confused on  the graph "water-right.jpg" and " water-left.jpg" :

a. These two graphs represent four different temperatures ( two water, 2 air). Yet I see only two temperature elements. Am I missing
     something?
b. One of these graphs shows the water lower temp than air ( water-left.jpg), the other shows the air lower temp than the water 
     (water-right.jpg). Is this correct?

Also ( help me, the engineer always comes out):

1. Why do you feel 64-66F/24 hours is best for IDY? Is there further reading on this?
2. I have read that the lower temp always the bacteria to reproduce better, and slows down the yeast, thus increasing lactic acid.
   And that flour naturally have bacteria in it that will accomplish this. I notice you have a culture, I do not. Do you feel all flour has some
   bacteria to replicate this affect resulting in lactic acid?
3. Does the bacteria growth result in other by products?
4. Why not just add these by products in (lactic acid, acetic acid, etc)?
5. I am thinking a small wall mount A/C from Home Depot, and a small insulated box may accomplish the desired 64-66F. Comments?


Thanks

Offline scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2013, 11:48:02 AM »
Scott, I'm pretty sure you have used both All Trumps bromated and All Trumps unbromated. You too, Chau? Anyone else? If so, I'd love to hear how your experience compares to mine.

I've never used unbromated AT (it's basically impossible to find it around it), but I have tracked the progress of some that have, and, due the underwhelming performance, I've gone to great lengths to dissuade people from purchasing it.  If you can get bromated, use that (and if you can get lower protein bromated, that's even better). Otherwise, if you can't get bromated, then Pendleton is the better choice.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2013, 01:45:07 PM »
Can you add Bromine to flour?

Also, my understanding is that iodine in the early/mid 1900's was used, then it was replaced with Bromine in the mid century.

Not sure if Bromine works better, or if it was cheaper. It competes with iodine in the uptake to the thyroid (theoretically), they are close on the  element scale. Some claim this is the reason for many ills, but I also read it is evaporated during baking, which I cant see how, it's a solid.

1. Anyone ever tried iodine in the flour?
2. How big of a difference does bromated flour make in the final product?



Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2013, 07:20:39 PM »
Can you add Bromine to flour?

Also, my understanding is that iodine in the early/mid 1900's was used, then it was replaced with Bromine in the mid century.

Not sure if Bromine works better, or if it was cheaper. It competes with iodine in the uptake to the thyroid (theoretically), they are close on the  element scale. Some claim this is the reason for many ills, but I also read it is evaporated during baking, which I cant see how, it's a solid.

1. Anyone ever tried iodine in the flour?
2. How big of a difference does bromated flour make in the final product?

No. Bromine is a toxic, caustic, dark red liquid. I think you mean potassium bromate. It would be very foolish to try to make your own bromated flour.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2013, 08:23:41 PM »
Bromine is a very unstable metal, toxic yes.

I was referring to adding potassium bromate. Which is Bromine chemically bound to potassium. Bromine is unstable in normal conditions.

It seems potassium bromate is unavailable to most, but yet they add it to some flours and banned in many countries.

My opinion, the small amount in flour probably does no harm.

Most experts have baking time of less that 6 minutes an bromated flour as a priority for NY pizza.

thanks

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2013, 08:52:30 PM »
Bromine is a very unstable metal, toxic yes.

I was referring to adding potassium bromate. Which is Bromine chemically bound to potassium.

And oxygen. I don't think bromine is considered a metal under normal atmospheric conditions.
Pizza is not bread.


 

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