Author Topic: Gluten Strength  (Read 12629 times)

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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2013, 05:58:29 PM »
Also, is it better to warm ferment for an hour or so before placing the dough in the refrigerator for a 24 to 72 hour cold ferment after mix/knead?

I just noticed the one ball I warm fermented after kneading for two hours, then placed in fridge for 24 hours has less of a good smell than the one ball I placed in fridge directly after kneading. So the smell of the cold only ferment smells better.




Online TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2013, 06:05:55 PM »
Also, is it better to warm ferment for an hour or so before placing the dough in the refrigerator for a 24 to 72 hour cold ferment after mix/knead?

It's better not to place the dough in the refrigerator at all.
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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2013, 07:31:29 PM »
thanks TXCraig1.

I almost believe warm ferment, after trying many cold ferments, zero structure or taste difference. Many times I do the "emergency dough". Three hours warm ferment.

Please tell me your warm ferment time and temperature TXCraig1

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2013, 08:02:33 PM »
Seems Pete-zza made a similar pie, thicker though but high oil and yeast, less water.

He did not like it much.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg17203.html#msg17203

crumb crust. Mine is not that way though.

Thanks Pete-zza

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2013, 08:03:40 PM »
Should the water be heated or not? Anyone have experiences both ways?
thanks

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2013, 09:36:57 PM »
thanks TXCraig1.

I almost believe warm ferment, after trying many cold ferments, zero structure or taste difference. Many times I do the "emergency dough". Three hours warm ferment.

Please tell me your warm ferment time and temperature TXCraig1

Sourdough(Ischia) - 48h@62-64F
IDY - 24h@64-66F
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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2013, 09:49:06 PM »
difficult to get that temperature continuous unless you have a cellar. But very possible.

Excellent knowledge. Knowledge rules.

thank you so so much fellow Texan, TXCraig1
 

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2013, 10:35:20 PM »
difficult to get that temperature continuous unless you have a cellar. But very possible.


Here is how I do it: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.0.html
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2013, 10:36:30 PM »
fellow Texan

What part of town do you live in?
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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2013, 09:14:29 AM »
I live near The Woodlands. Built a house on an acre in the sticks 16 years ago , now the sticks are nothing but neighborhoods. Progress I guess, but I prefer woods.

Hey, read through your post "Simple and Effective Bulk Ferment Set-up w/ Temperature Profile", love it. I am a BSEE, and am always designing/building my own inventions. nice.

I was a little confused on  the graph "water-right.jpg" and " water-left.jpg" :

a. These two graphs represent four different temperatures ( two water, 2 air). Yet I see only two temperature elements. Am I missing
     something?
b. One of these graphs shows the water lower temp than air ( water-left.jpg), the other shows the air lower temp than the water 
     (water-right.jpg). Is this correct?

Also ( help me, the engineer always comes out):

1. Why do you feel 64-66F/24 hours is best for IDY? Is there further reading on this?
2. I have read that the lower temp always the bacteria to reproduce better, and slows down the yeast, thus increasing lactic acid.
   And that flour naturally have bacteria in it that will accomplish this. I notice you have a culture, I do not. Do you feel all flour has some
   bacteria to replicate this affect resulting in lactic acid?
3. Does the bacteria growth result in other by products?
4. Why not just add these by products in (lactic acid, acetic acid, etc)?
5. I am thinking a small wall mount A/C from Home Depot, and a small insulated box may accomplish the desired 64-66F. Comments?


Thanks

scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2013, 11:48:02 AM »
Scott, I'm pretty sure you have used both All Trumps bromated and All Trumps unbromated. You too, Chau? Anyone else? If so, I'd love to hear how your experience compares to mine.

I've never used unbromated AT (it's basically impossible to find it around it), but I have tracked the progress of some that have, and, due the underwhelming performance, I've gone to great lengths to dissuade people from purchasing it.  If you can get bromated, use that (and if you can get lower protein bromated, that's even better). Otherwise, if you can't get bromated, then Pendleton is the better choice.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2013, 01:45:07 PM »
Can you add Bromine to flour?

Also, my understanding is that iodine in the early/mid 1900's was used, then it was replaced with Bromine in the mid century.

Not sure if Bromine works better, or if it was cheaper. It competes with iodine in the uptake to the thyroid (theoretically), they are close on the  element scale. Some claim this is the reason for many ills, but I also read it is evaporated during baking, which I cant see how, it's a solid.

1. Anyone ever tried iodine in the flour?
2. How big of a difference does bromated flour make in the final product?



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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2013, 07:20:39 PM »
Can you add Bromine to flour?

Also, my understanding is that iodine in the early/mid 1900's was used, then it was replaced with Bromine in the mid century.

Not sure if Bromine works better, or if it was cheaper. It competes with iodine in the uptake to the thyroid (theoretically), they are close on the  element scale. Some claim this is the reason for many ills, but I also read it is evaporated during baking, which I cant see how, it's a solid.

1. Anyone ever tried iodine in the flour?
2. How big of a difference does bromated flour make in the final product?

No. Bromine is a toxic, caustic, dark red liquid. I think you mean potassium bromate. It would be very foolish to try to make your own bromated flour.
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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2013, 08:23:41 PM »
Bromine is a very unstable metal, toxic yes.

I was referring to adding potassium bromate. Which is Bromine chemically bound to potassium. Bromine is unstable in normal conditions.

It seems potassium bromate is unavailable to most, but yet they add it to some flours and banned in many countries.

My opinion, the small amount in flour probably does no harm.

Most experts have baking time of less that 6 minutes an bromated flour as a priority for NY pizza.

thanks

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2013, 08:52:30 PM »
Bromine is a very unstable metal, toxic yes.

I was referring to adding potassium bromate. Which is Bromine chemically bound to potassium.

And oxygen. I don't think bromine is considered a metal under normal atmospheric conditions.
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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2013, 09:05:42 PM »
Oops, correct

"Bromine is the only liquid nonmetallic element. It is a member of the halogen group. It is a heavy, volatile, mobile, dangerous reddish-brown liquid"

but good for dough

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2013, 10:15:02 PM »
I live near The Woodlands. Built a house on an acre in the sticks 16 years ago , now the sticks are nothing but neighborhoods. Progress I guess, but I prefer woods.

Hey, read through your post "Simple and Effective Bulk Ferment Set-up w/ Temperature Profile", love it. I am a BSEE, and am always designing/building my own inventions. nice.

I was a little confused on  the graph "water-right.jpg" and " water-left.jpg" :

a. These two graphs represent four different temperatures ( two water, 2 air). Yet I see only two temperature elements. Am I missing
     something?

Itís two separate tests to simulate placing the dough in the center next to the ice and on the far side away from the ice.


Quote
b. One of these graphs shows the water lower temp than air ( water-left.jpg), the other shows the air lower temp than the water 
     (water-right.jpg). Is this correct?

Itís not water temp. Itís the air temp above the container of water (heat mass - as opposed to the container of air). You can see how when the water is farther from the ice, it cools slower. You can use this knowledge to fine tune your fermentation.

Quote
Also ( help me, the engineer always comes out):

1. Why do you feel 64-66F/24 hours is best for IDY? Is there further reading on this?

Itís personal preference. Iíve experimented with a wide range of temps, and this is where Iíve found the best (IMO) flavor to develop. Itís a lot more pronounced for sourdough. At least one other member who has probably experimented more than me has come to the same conclusion. IMO, you can produce more flavor in a day at 64F than 3-4 days in the fridge.

Quote
2. I have read that the lower temp always the bacteria to reproduce better, and slows down the yeast, thus increasing lactic acid.

Bacteria arenít a material factor in a typical IDY (or any other form of bakerís yeast) dough. In a typical sourdough culture, there isnít much difference in the growth rate of bacteria and yeast until the temperature passes 80F. You can see it in the growth rate chart here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.0.html

Lactic acid production is favored in warmer temps in both hetero and homofermentation. Lactic acid production is directly related to activity.  Cooler temps favor acetic acid formation. Acetic acid production indirectly influenced by temperature because it affects the kinds of sugars available.

Quote
And that flour naturally have bacteria in it that will accomplish this. I notice you have a culture, I do not. Do you feel all flour has some bacteria to replicate this affect resulting in lactic acid?
No. Definitely not in quantities that are material.

Quote
3. Does the bacteria growth result in other by products?

Yes, dozens of volatile and non-volatile compounds: organic acids, alcohols, esters, carbonyls, aldehydes, ketones,  etc. If you are interested, PM your email to me and Iíll send you some journal articles to read.

Quote
4. Why not just add these by products in (lactic acid, acetic acid, etc)?

You have a bottle of lactic acid lying around? I donít think itís quite that simple.

Quote
5. I am thinking a small wall mount A/C from Home Depot, and a small insulated box may accomplish the desired 64-66F. Comments?

A wine cooler would probably be a lot easier Ė or get an old fridge and a PID controller.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage


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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2013, 10:15:55 PM »
but good for dough

You and I have very different ideas of what is good for dough...  :-D
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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2013, 08:16:29 AM »
wow! TXCraig1, thanks.

Obviously you have some strong technical knowledge and logistics.

It will take me days now to study all this info.

Yes, I got a bottle of lactic acid from a local brewery supply shop. I added way too much lactic acid and I never tried it again. Also added some vinegar once, no taste difference.

I will try a new dough tonight based on all the great suggestions here. Which will include the 64 F temperature ferment, and 62% "effective hydration" and some of the other comments in this thread.

I have a small apartment next to my house that is empty (kids gone now). I will crank the A/C down to 65 F and let it ride for 24 hours.

Yes, any links you have on any of the subject matter is appreciated.

Man, thank you all!!!






Offline JD

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2013, 08:32:40 AM »
wow! TXCraig1, thanks.

Yes, I got a bottle of lactic acid from a local brewery supply shop. I added way too much lactic acid and I never tried it again. Also added some vinegar once, no taste difference.


Somebody brought this idea up in one of my older threads, and suggested to try a vial of lactobacillus. http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp677-lactobacillus-bacteria?s=homebrew
Is this what you have? Or do you really have a bottle of lactic acid?

A couple things that turned me off to it was the price and some fine print that said "best results after 2 years of aging", so I wasn't sure if it would produce what I was looking for. 

I'd be very curious of your results either way.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2013, 08:57:44 AM »
Somebody brought this idea up in one of my older threads, and suggested to try a vial of lactobacillus. http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp677-lactobacillus-bacteria?s=homebrew
Is this what you have? Or do you really have a bottle of lactic acid?

A couple things that turned me off to it was the price and some fine print that said "best results after 2 years of aging", so I wasn't sure if it would produce what I was looking for. 

I'd be very curious of your results either way.

No, it was lactic acid itself, not lacto bacteria. Very cheap, about $3.00. http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/lactic-acid-4-oz.html

I have tried probiotics that have lacto-bacteria. I tested the probiotic overnight in some milk, left it to see if it was alive. Seemed it was, milk clumped up a little.

Bottom line flavor was not noticeable to us.

I gave up on it when I put way too much lactic acid one time, and noticed not many here were interested in it. They know more than me was my attitude.

yes, I would also  like to know results from people who have tried lactic acid, vinegar, lacto bacteria, etc.

Thanks

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2013, 09:47:41 AM »
I should note that my "sourdough" crust is not sour - most sourdough (SD) isn't. My goal is not to make San Francisco sourdough bread pizza. I have a different culture that would do it, but I don't like that in pizza. I would describe my dough flavor as "rich" or even a little "creamy." Its a much fuller flavor than you can get from baker's yeast, but definitely not sour.  I'd be curious to taste a dough made with the direct addition of lactic acid - my guess is that it will be very one-dimensional. There is a lot of other stuff going on in SD dough. I'm also curious how it will affect the yeast. In a normal dough, the build-up of acids is very slow. Added directly, it will have to be all at once.
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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2013, 10:58:08 AM »
I should note that my "sourdough" crust is not sour - most sourdough (SD) isn't. My goal is not to make San Francisco sourdough bread pizza. I have a different culture that would do it, but I don't like that in pizza. I would describe my dough flavor as "rich" or even a little "creamy." Its a much fuller flavor than you can get from baker's yeast, but definitely not sour.  I'd be curious to taste a dough made with the direct addition of lactic acid - my guess is that it will be very one-dimensional. There is a lot of other stuff going on in SD dough. I'm also curious how it will affect the yeast. In a normal dough, the build-up of acids is very slow. Added directly, it will have to be all at once.

OK, I see, I just assumed sourdough, sour taste desired, therefore add lactic acid. Not so, as you say many activities going on in there, which I believe is not even fully understood by the academic world.

Problem with pre ferment is it would be like having a pet to take care of, must feed and water it.

Do any/most of the famous NY pizzerias use pre ferment? Any major chains?

Speaking of NY style, has anybody tried Johnny's in Atlanta, spun off from NY.? Near the airport.  I did, I thought best I ever had.

Your description " I would describe my dough flavor as "rich" or even a little "creamy." Makes me envious,

thanks!






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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2013, 11:19:39 AM »
OK, I see, I just assumed sourdough, sour taste desired, therefore add lactic acid. Not so, as you say many activities going on in there, which I believe is not even fully understood by the academic world.

Acetic acid is typically responsible for most of the sour flavor in shourdough. Lactic acid tends to contribute more to the aroma.

Quote
Problem with pre ferment is it would be like having a pet to take care of, must feed and water it.

But unlike a pet, you can stick it in the fridge for several months with no ill effect.

Quote
Do any/most of the famous NY pizzerias use pre ferment? Any major chains?

No, very few places do. Not because baker's yeast delivers a better product but rather because it is much simpler and requires a lot less in the way of skilled labor.

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2013, 11:35:19 AM »
Acetic acid is typically responsible for most of the sour flavor in shourdough. Lactic acid tends to contribute more to the aroma.

But unlike a pet, you can stick it in the fridge for several months with no ill effect.

No, very few places do. Not because baker's yeast delivers a better product but rather because it is much simpler and requires a lot less in the way of skilled labor.

Good info.

Was thinking, the articles I read on fermentation via yeast, is mostly all they produce is ethanol and CO2. Then in other articles, they mention yeast producing "other" items, no detailed explanation. Then others say they release an enzyme, amylase, to break complex carbs into simple sugars, therefore giving flavor.  Then other articles suggest the flour already has amylase, and the water activates it, which produces the flavorful  sugars. And then I read the yeast can only eat simple sugars, which are not in flour.
Yeast is a single cell creature ( I think), and given that, I would doubt it has enough ability to make an enzyme, but I don't know.

So maybe enzymes are present in flour, but enzymes are typically destroyed at 118 F. So if the milling process gets that high, flour would have no enzyme activity.

Bacteria are multiple cell creatures, so i would think their by products of reproducing and digestion would release many more by products than a simple yeast, which I think is sort of a virus.

Can not really find many scholarly articles that actually prove by products.

Interesting, a process definitely.


 

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