Author Topic: Gluten Strength  (Read 10796 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15440
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2013, 12:16:04 PM »
Was thinking, the articles I read on fermentation via yeast, is mostly all they produce is ethanol and CO2. Then in other articles, they mention yeast producing "other" items, no detailed explanation. Then others say they release an enzyme, amylase, to break complex carbs into simple sugars, therefore giving flavor.  Then other articles suggest the flour already has amylase, and the water activates it, which produces the flavorful  sugars.

There is amylase in flour and water does activates it. There is a very important flour specification that tells us the enzyme activity: the falling number.

Not sure how much flavor the sugars deliver though.

Quote
And then I read the yeast can only eat simple sugars, which are not in flour. Yeast is a single cell creature ( I think), and given that, I would doubt it has enough ability to make an enzyme, but I don't know.

Yeast can certainly make enzymes. The fructose the LAB metabolize to produce acetic acid for example, is primarily freed through the action of the enzyme invertase secreted by the yeast.

Quote
So maybe enzymes are present in flour, but enzymes are typically destroyed at 118 F. So if the milling process gets that high, flour would have no enzyme activity.

That's 118F wet. Dry temps can reach 150F without denaturing the enzymes.

Quote
Bacteria are multiple cell creatures, so i would think their by products of reproducing and digestion would release many more by products than a simple yeast, which I think is sort of a virus.


Last time I checked, bacteria were single cell organisms. Yeast are fungi.

Quote
Can not really find many scholarly articles that actually prove by products.

I'm looking at a peer reviewed paper right now that identifies 28. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924224406001890 It's behind a paywall, but if you send me your email, I'll shoot you a copy.
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline philipmason

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 85
  • Location: houston
  • Process Solutions
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2013, 05:56:55 PM »
There is amylase in flour and water does activates it. There is a very important flour specification that tells us the enzyme activity: the falling number.

Not sure how much flavor the sugars deliver though.

Yeast can certainly make enzymes. The fructose the LAB metabolize to produce acetic acid for example, is primarily freed through the action of the enzyme invertase secreted by the yeast.

That's 118F wet. Dry temps can reach 150F without denaturing the enzymes.
 

Last time I checked, bacteria were single cell organisms. Yeast are fungi.
 
I'm looking at a peer reviewed paper right now that identifies 28. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924224406001890 It's behind a paywall, but if you send me your email, I'll shoot you a copy.

Nice, you really have engaged in this.

Where did you buy your starter? If it does not create lactic acid, what is it creating?

I have wondered if they can package yeast, a one cell organism, why can't they do the same with bacteria that supports a sour dough? It's done with proboitics. I was thinking trying a really strong probiotic in dough, one bought refrigerated, a test will still have to be performed to see if it's a live.

Can you attached or cut and paste the meat of the peer reviewed paper?

appreciate!


Offline philipmason

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 85
  • Location: houston
  • Process Solutions
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2013, 06:25:03 PM »
Someone does sell potassium bromate. Should not be allowed IMO.

http://compare.ebay.com/like/281047603751?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

Offline JD

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1915
  • Location: Long Island, NY
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2013, 08:18:20 PM »
I was thinking trying a really strong probiotic in dough, one bought refrigerated, a test will still have to be performed to see if it's a live.


If you ever do this, can you post your results to this thread? http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26069.0.html

 :chef:

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23842
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2013, 08:52:10 PM »
Philipmason,

If you or anyone else is interested I played about with milk kefir to leaven pizza dough for awhile at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.0.html There was no sour taste in those crusts.  I wish now I would have been more experienced and knew how to control temperature the dough balls with milk kefir at that time.  Milk kefir seemed to slowly ferment pizza dough.  Milk kefir is supposed to be a probiotic.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline philipmason

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 85
  • Location: houston
  • Process Solutions
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2013, 09:05:37 PM »

If you ever do this, can you post your results to this thread? http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26069.0.html

 :chef:
Will do friend. Whole Foods has it. Will try in the next few weeks.

thanks

Offline philipmason

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 85
  • Location: houston
  • Process Solutions
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2013, 09:08:06 PM »
Philipmason,

If you or anyone else is interested I played about with milk kefir to leaven pizza dough for awhile at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.0.html There was no sour taste in those crusts.  I wish now I would have been more experienced and knew how to control temperature the dough balls with milk kefir at that time.  Milk kefir seemed to slowly ferment pizza dough.  Milk kefir is supposed to be a probiotic.

Norma

I will study this,  I tried yogurt and sour cram and buttermilk. No success. Beer in place of water was actually really good.

Will post results

thanks

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23842
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2013, 10:42:47 PM »
I will study this,  I tried yogurt and sour cram and buttermilk. No success. Beer in place of water was actually really good.

Will post results

thanks

philipmason,

If you decide to try what I did with real milk kefir grains I will be watching for your results.  I wish I would have froze some of them, but think I threw some away when my fridge broke down.  Those experiments with milk kefir grains were interesting in leavening pizza doughs and I learned a lot with Peter's assistance.  If you want to see more posts where I used those milk keifr grains I used them to leaven bagels and pizza dough from the bagel recipe from Marc.  I posted about the Farimont Bagel Pizza at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12463.0.html and the bagels with milk kefir at Reply 50 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11832.msg117231.html#msg117231  I also leavened some Pizzarium doughs with the milk kefir.  I did leavened bread with milk kefir at Reply 361  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.msg116289.html#msg116289 

Since I have learned more about starters I do really like the Ischia starter. 

The one milk kefir dough ball went for a long time in the fridge and still was good to use to make a pizza.  It still makes me wonder how that dough lasted so long before it was made into a pizza.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15440
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2013, 12:07:47 AM »
Where did you buy your starter?

I have three and all are from sourdo.com

Quote
If it does not create lactic acid, what is it creating?

I'm sure it does; and acetic acid; and a bunch of other stuff. Just not in the quantities and ratios some of the more sour do - particularly not acetic acid.

Quote
I have wondered if they can package yeast, a one cell organism, why can't they do the same with bacteria that supports a sour dough? It's done with proboitics. I was thinking trying a really strong probiotic in dough, one bought refrigerated, a test will still have to be performed to see if it's a live.

I'm sure they could. The problem is that a sourdough culture is not simply a random yeast and a random bacteria. It is a symbiotic pair unique to the culture. Also the yeast in a sourdough culture is not simply a strain of baker's yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae). In many cases it's not just a different species but an entirely different genus such as Candida milleri.

Quote
Can you attached or cut and paste the meat of the peer reviewed paper?

No, too much context you'd need to get anything out of it.
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7159
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2013, 12:20:17 AM »
Not to be the party pooper but before you start experimenting with sourdough starters, yogurts, probiotics, milk kefir, beer, etc., you should be able to make a satisfactory pizza crust with commerical yeast.  If you aren't happy with your pizza crust with commercial yeast (ADY, IDY, CY), I'm not sure adding more ingredients will improve it.  Become familiar and proficient with the basics, then expand your knowledge.  If you are already past the basics, then by all means experiment away.  After 3 years of constant experimenting, I have just barely begun to understand the basics of making a good pizza crust that meets my standards and expectations. 

Chau
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 12:22:02 AM by Jackie Tran »

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2013, 02:03:50 AM »
Someone does sell potassium bromate. Should not be allowed IMO.

Why not?  One can buy strong acids, that, if handled improperly, can be dangerous.  Just because something could be, if carelessly handled, dangerous, doesn't mean it shouldn't be sold.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15440
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2013, 02:19:23 AM »
Why not?  One can buy strong acids, that, if handled improperly, can be dangerous.  Just because something could be, if carelessly handled, dangerous, doesn't mean it shouldn't be sold.

Do you think people should be adding it to flour as an ingriduent themselves?
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2013, 02:42:06 AM »
Do you think people should be adding it to flour as an ingriduent themselves?

Honestly, up until Philip posted that link, I didn't know it was available on a retail level.

It's probably not very cost effective, you'd need a very precise scale for measurement (~.015g per Kg flour), and you'd need to be careful, but, sure, if someone is conscientious about it, why not?  It would be considerably safer than working with lye for pretzels or bagels, and many people seem to do that without any issues.

A little more research is necessary- such as how long bromate requires to oxidize flour and what kind of shelf life it has, but, for, say, someone in California, this could be a more viable route than paying exorbitant shipping charges.

Offline philipmason

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 85
  • Location: houston
  • Process Solutions
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2013, 08:33:58 AM »
Not to be the party pooper but before you start experimenting with sourdough starters, yogurts, probiotics, milk kefir, beer, etc., you should be able to make a satisfactory pizza crust with commerical yeast.  If you aren't happy with your pizza crust with commercial yeast (ADY, IDY, CY), I'm not sure adding more ingredients will improve it.  Become familiar and proficient with the basics, then expand your knowledge.  If you are already past the basics, then by all means experiment away.  After 3 years of constant experimenting, I have just barely begun to understand the basics of making a good pizza crust that meets my standards and expectations. 

Chau
Wise words Jackie. I am taking that advice, maybe one day I can post a picture similar to yours, that I posted with my first post. thank you

We actually took the advice of  TXCraig1 and Pete-zza.

I used an "effective hydration" equal to the max hydration of my bread flour, then a 24 hour ferment ant 64F ( really probably 66 to 63, the t-stat dead band).

The dough strength and manageability was our best ever, no stickiness. The .085 TF crust was crist, yet foldable, and very chewy, a little tough, which was all our goals. And the taste, the best ever also for us.

Offline philipmason

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 85
  • Location: houston
  • Process Solutions
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2013, 08:36:54 AM »
philipmason,

If you decide to try what I did with real milk kefir grains I will be watching for your results.  I wish I would have froze some of them, but think I threw some away when my fridge broke down.  Those experiments with milk kefir grains were interesting in leavening pizza doughs and I learned a lot with Peter's assistance.  If you want to see more posts where I used those milk keifr grains I used them to leaven bagels and pizza dough from the bagel recipe from Marc.  I posted about the Farimont Bagel Pizza at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12463.0.html and the bagels with milk kefir at Reply 50 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11832.msg117231.html#msg117231  I also leavened some Pizzarium doughs with the milk kefir.  I did leavened bread with milk kefir at Reply 361  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.msg116289.html#msg116289 

Since I have learned more about starters I do really like the Ischia starter. 

The one milk kefir dough ball went for a long time in the fridge and still was good to use to make a pizza.  It still makes me wonder how that dough lasted so long before it was made into a pizza.

Norma

Will study these links, thanks. However, advice form Jackie Tran is to get the basics first, maybe I can do both, ha!

Where do you get your  Ischia starter? Is it real sour, or more like TXCraig1's starter?

thanks

Offline philipmason

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 85
  • Location: houston
  • Process Solutions
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2013, 08:39:35 AM »
I have three and all are from sourdo.com

I'm sure it does; and acetic acid; and a bunch of other stuff. Just not in the quantities and ratios some of the more sour do - particularly not acetic acid.

I'm sure they could. The problem is that a sourdough culture is not simply a random yeast and a random bacteria. It is a symbiotic pair unique to the culture. Also the yeast in a sourdough culture is not simply a strain of baker's yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae). In many cases it's not just a different species but an entirely different genus such as Candida milleri.

No, too much context you'd need to get anything out of it.

I saw this several months a go, but was from Germany only, now someone here is importing and selling?

Maybe interesting to try.

Anyone ever try??

instantsourdough.com/

Offline philipmason

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 85
  • Location: houston
  • Process Solutions
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2013, 08:41:14 AM »
Why not?  One can buy strong acids, that, if handled improperly, can be dangerous.  Just because something could be, if carelessly handled, dangerous, doesn't mean it shouldn't be sold.

I see both sides, but since it is a known toxin, and banned in may countries and California, I base my opinion on that, and I am typically very conservative. Good points.


Offline philipmason

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 85
  • Location: houston
  • Process Solutions
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2013, 08:42:59 AM »
Honestly, up until Philip posted that link, I didn't know it was available on a retail level.

It's probably not very cost effective, you'd need a very precise scale for measurement (~.015g per Kg flour), and you'd need to be careful, but, sure, if someone is conscientious about it, why not?  It would be considerably safer than working with lye for pretzels or bagels, and many people seem to do that without any issues.

A little more research is necessary- such as how long bromate requires to oxidize flour and what kind of shelf life it has, but, for, say, someone in California, this could be a more viable route than paying exorbitant shipping charges.

I wonder if it would break some California law if they did purchase and use in flour?? Civil or criminal if so?

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23842
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2013, 09:27:13 AM »
Will study these links, thanks. However, advice form Jackie Tran is to get the basics first, maybe I can do both, ha!

Where do you get your  Ischia starter? Is it real sour, or more like TXCraig1's starter?

thanks

Philip,

This is where I got my sourdough cultures.  http://www.sourdo.com/cultures/italian-cultures-includes-two/  After the cultures were activated I dried some of the Ischia and shared it with some members.  My Ischia starter is the same as Craig's and Chau's.  It all depends on how you feed your Ischia starter, how much you use in the formulation, how you control temperature ferment the dough are all variables on what the final outcome will be.  The Ischia starter is not sour if you feed it right and know when to use it. 

I believe Chau is right to experiment with your own dough first before going on to other means of leavening pizza doughs.  Sourdough methods are harder to understand in my opinion if you really don't understand how your regular dough works first. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2013, 10:04:06 AM »
I wonder if it would break some California law if they did purchase and use in flour?? Civil or criminal if so?

I doubt it.  Bromate isn't technically banned in California, it just requires special labeling.  I'm sure there are regulations for commercial use, but I highly doubt that personal use would be regulated.

Offline philipmason

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 85
  • Location: houston
  • Process Solutions
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2013, 10:12:08 AM »
I doubt it.  Bromate isn't technically banned in California, it just requires special labeling.  I'm sure there are regulations for commercial use, but I highly doubt that personal use would be regulated.

In Texas, Houston area, I just do not have access to bromated flour, maybe on line order , just to see.

Pete-zza lists bromated flour as the second most important factor in dough (NY anyway).

Anyone know where to find bromated flour in Houston?

Offline philipmason

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 85
  • Location: houston
  • Process Solutions
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #71 on: September 13, 2013, 10:17:37 AM »
Philip,

This is where I got my sourdough cultures.  http://www.sourdo.com/cultures/italian-cultures-includes-two/  After the cultures were activated I dried some of the Ischia and shared it with some members.  My Ischia starter is the same as Craig's and Chau's.  It all depends on how you feed your Ischia starter, how much you use in the formulation, how you control temperature ferment the dough are all variables on what the final outcome will be.  The Ischia starter is not sour if you feed it right and know when to use it. 

I believe Chau is right to experiment with your own dough first before going on to other means of leavening pizza doughs.  Sourdough methods are harder to understand in my opinion if you really don't understand how your regular dough works first. 

Norma

I will take you advice and work on basics, but definitively order some of this and try soon. You and Craig have a  high opinion on this stuff, thanks for sharing link!

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15440
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #72 on: September 13, 2013, 10:25:43 AM »
In Texas, Houston area, I just do not have access to bromated flour, maybe on line order , just to see.

Pete-zza lists bromated flour as the second most important factor in dough (NY anyway).

Anyone know where to find bromated flour in Houston?

I don't know that there are any manufacturers that sell a retail pack of bromated flour. You might find a store here and there around the country that carries it in bulk bins, but I doubt it is common. Id guess it really doesn't matter where you are, unless you live next to a foodservice distributor that has cash-and-carry outlet, you won't find it easily.

I suspect that the only way you might be able to get it here in Houston is to call Sysco or one of he other broadline distributors' will-call and ask them if they will sell you a bag. I think US Foodservice is up on the North side of town. At a minimum, you would want to know the UPC of the item you want before calling. They are not going to be too excited about helping someone who only wants one bag of lour.  Even better you might do a little research first online and find their product number for it. This information is probably readily available online if you know the manufacturer's code and do a search.

Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #73 on: September 13, 2013, 10:37:14 AM »
Restaurant Depot probably has it (I'd call).

Houston, TX 1431 W 20th St Houston,  TX  77008-1641
Phone: 713-864-7500

Do you have a tax id or know of someone who does?

Offline philipmason

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 85
  • Location: houston
  • Process Solutions
Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #74 on: September 13, 2013, 08:09:15 PM »
Restaurant Depot probably has it (I'd call).

Houston, TX 1431 W 20th St Houston,  TX  77008-1641
Phone: 713-864-7500

Do you have a tax id or know of someone who does?

Yes, I have Tax ID. I will get some of this. Be interesting to see what I have been missing.

Thanks!