Author Topic: Gluten Strength  (Read 7286 times)

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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2013, 09:05:42 PM »
Oops, correct

"Bromine is the only liquid nonmetallic element. It is a member of the halogen group. It is a heavy, volatile, mobile, dangerous reddish-brown liquid"

but good for dough


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2013, 10:15:02 PM »
I live near The Woodlands. Built a house on an acre in the sticks 16 years ago , now the sticks are nothing but neighborhoods. Progress I guess, but I prefer woods.

Hey, read through your post "Simple and Effective Bulk Ferment Set-up w/ Temperature Profile", love it. I am a BSEE, and am always designing/building my own inventions. nice.

I was a little confused on  the graph "water-right.jpg" and " water-left.jpg" :

a. These two graphs represent four different temperatures ( two water, 2 air). Yet I see only two temperature elements. Am I missing
     something?


Itís two separate tests to simulate placing the dough in the center next to the ice and on the far side away from the ice.


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b. One of these graphs shows the water lower temp than air ( water-left.jpg), the other shows the air lower temp than the water 
     (water-right.jpg). Is this correct?


Itís not water temp. Itís the air temp above the container of water (heat mass - as opposed to the container of air). You can see how when the water is farther from the ice, it cools slower. You can use this knowledge to fine tune your fermentation.

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Also ( help me, the engineer always comes out):

1. Why do you feel 64-66F/24 hours is best for IDY? Is there further reading on this?


Itís personal preference. Iíve experimented with a wide range of temps, and this is where Iíve found the best (IMO) flavor to develop. Itís a lot more pronounced for sourdough. At least one other member who has probably experimented more than me has come to the same conclusion. IMO, you can produce more flavor in a day at 64F than 3-4 days in the fridge.

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2. I have read that the lower temp always the bacteria to reproduce better, and slows down the yeast, thus increasing lactic acid.


Bacteria arenít a material factor in a typical IDY (or any other form of bakerís yeast) dough. In a typical sourdough culture, there isnít much difference in the growth rate of bacteria and yeast until the temperature passes 80F. You can see it in the growth rate chart here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.0.html

Lactic acid production is favored in warmer temps in both hetero and homofermentation. Lactic acid production is directly related to activity.  Cooler temps favor acetic acid formation. Acetic acid production indirectly influenced by temperature because it affects the kinds of sugars available.

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And that flour naturally have bacteria in it that will accomplish this. I notice you have a culture, I do not. Do you feel all flour has some bacteria to replicate this affect resulting in lactic acid?

No. Definitely not in quantities that are material.

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3. Does the bacteria growth result in other by products?


Yes, dozens of volatile and non-volatile compounds: organic acids, alcohols, esters, carbonyls, aldehydes, ketones,  etc. If you are interested, PM your email to me and Iíll send you some journal articles to read.

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4. Why not just add these by products in (lactic acid, acetic acid, etc)?


You have a bottle of lactic acid lying around? I donít think itís quite that simple.

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5. I am thinking a small wall mount A/C from Home Depot, and a small insulated box may accomplish the desired 64-66F. Comments?


A wine cooler would probably be a lot easier Ė or get an old fridge and a PID controller.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2013, 10:15:55 PM »
but good for dough

You and I have very different ideas of what is good for dough...  :-D
Pizza is not bread.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2013, 08:16:29 AM »
wow! TXCraig1, thanks.

Obviously you have some strong technical knowledge and logistics.

It will take me days now to study all this info.

Yes, I got a bottle of lactic acid from a local brewery supply shop. I added way too much lactic acid and I never tried it again. Also added some vinegar once, no taste difference.

I will try a new dough tonight based on all the great suggestions here. Which will include the 64 F temperature ferment, and 62% "effective hydration" and some of the other comments in this thread.

I have a small apartment next to my house that is empty (kids gone now). I will crank the A/C down to 65 F and let it ride for 24 hours.

Yes, any links you have on any of the subject matter is appreciated.

Man, thank you all!!!






Online JD

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2013, 08:32:40 AM »
wow! TXCraig1, thanks.

Yes, I got a bottle of lactic acid from a local brewery supply shop. I added way too much lactic acid and I never tried it again. Also added some vinegar once, no taste difference.



Somebody brought this idea up in one of my older threads, and suggested to try a vial of lactobacillus. http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp677-lactobacillus-bacteria?s=homebrew
Is this what you have? Or do you really have a bottle of lactic acid?

A couple things that turned me off to it was the price and some fine print that said "best results after 2 years of aging", so I wasn't sure if it would produce what I was looking for. 

I'd be very curious of your results either way.
Josh

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2013, 08:57:44 AM »
Somebody brought this idea up in one of my older threads, and suggested to try a vial of lactobacillus. http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp677-lactobacillus-bacteria?s=homebrew
Is this what you have? Or do you really have a bottle of lactic acid?

A couple things that turned me off to it was the price and some fine print that said "best results after 2 years of aging", so I wasn't sure if it would produce what I was looking for. 

I'd be very curious of your results either way.


No, it was lactic acid itself, not lacto bacteria. Very cheap, about $3.00. http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/lactic-acid-4-oz.html

I have tried probiotics that have lacto-bacteria. I tested the probiotic overnight in some milk, left it to see if it was alive. Seemed it was, milk clumped up a little.

Bottom line flavor was not noticeable to us.

I gave up on it when I put way too much lactic acid one time, and noticed not many here were interested in it. They know more than me was my attitude.

yes, I would also  like to know results from people who have tried lactic acid, vinegar, lacto bacteria, etc.

Thanks

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2013, 09:47:41 AM »
I should note that my "sourdough" crust is not sour - most sourdough (SD) isn't. My goal is not to make San Francisco sourdough bread pizza. I have a different culture that would do it, but I don't like that in pizza. I would describe my dough flavor as "rich" or even a little "creamy." Its a much fuller flavor than you can get from baker's yeast, but definitely not sour.  I'd be curious to taste a dough made with the direct addition of lactic acid - my guess is that it will be very one-dimensional. There is a lot of other stuff going on in SD dough. I'm also curious how it will affect the yeast. In a normal dough, the build-up of acids is very slow. Added directly, it will have to be all at once.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2013, 10:58:08 AM »
I should note that my "sourdough" crust is not sour - most sourdough (SD) isn't. My goal is not to make San Francisco sourdough bread pizza. I have a different culture that would do it, but I don't like that in pizza. I would describe my dough flavor as "rich" or even a little "creamy." Its a much fuller flavor than you can get from baker's yeast, but definitely not sour.  I'd be curious to taste a dough made with the direct addition of lactic acid - my guess is that it will be very one-dimensional. There is a lot of other stuff going on in SD dough. I'm also curious how it will affect the yeast. In a normal dough, the build-up of acids is very slow. Added directly, it will have to be all at once.

OK, I see, I just assumed sourdough, sour taste desired, therefore add lactic acid. Not so, as you say many activities going on in there, which I believe is not even fully understood by the academic world.

Problem with pre ferment is it would be like having a pet to take care of, must feed and water it.

Do any/most of the famous NY pizzerias use pre ferment? Any major chains?

Speaking of NY style, has anybody tried Johnny's in Atlanta, spun off from NY.? Near the airport.  I did, I thought best I ever had.

Your description " I would describe my dough flavor as "rich" or even a little "creamy." Makes me envious,

thanks!






Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2013, 11:19:39 AM »
OK, I see, I just assumed sourdough, sour taste desired, therefore add lactic acid. Not so, as you say many activities going on in there, which I believe is not even fully understood by the academic world.

Acetic acid is typically responsible for most of the sour flavor in shourdough. Lactic acid tends to contribute more to the aroma.

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Problem with pre ferment is it would be like having a pet to take care of, must feed and water it.

But unlike a pet, you can stick it in the fridge for several months with no ill effect.

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Do any/most of the famous NY pizzerias use pre ferment? Any major chains?

No, very few places do. Not because baker's yeast delivers a better product but rather because it is much simpler and requires a lot less in the way of skilled labor.

Pizza is not bread.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2013, 11:35:19 AM »
Acetic acid is typically responsible for most of the sour flavor in shourdough. Lactic acid tends to contribute more to the aroma.

But unlike a pet, you can stick it in the fridge for several months with no ill effect.

No, very few places do. Not because baker's yeast delivers a better product but rather because it is much simpler and requires a lot less in the way of skilled labor.

Good info.

Was thinking, the articles I read on fermentation via yeast, is mostly all they produce is ethanol and CO2. Then in other articles, they mention yeast producing "other" items, no detailed explanation. Then others say they release an enzyme, amylase, to break complex carbs into simple sugars, therefore giving flavor.  Then other articles suggest the flour already has amylase, and the water activates it, which produces the flavorful  sugars. And then I read the yeast can only eat simple sugars, which are not in flour.
Yeast is a single cell creature ( I think), and given that, I would doubt it has enough ability to make an enzyme, but I don't know.

So maybe enzymes are present in flour, but enzymes are typically destroyed at 118 F. So if the milling process gets that high, flour would have no enzyme activity.

Bacteria are multiple cell creatures, so i would think their by products of reproducing and digestion would release many more by products than a simple yeast, which I think is sort of a virus.

Can not really find many scholarly articles that actually prove by products.

Interesting, a process definitely.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2013, 12:16:04 PM »
Was thinking, the articles I read on fermentation via yeast, is mostly all they produce is ethanol and CO2. Then in other articles, they mention yeast producing "other" items, no detailed explanation. Then others say they release an enzyme, amylase, to break complex carbs into simple sugars, therefore giving flavor.  Then other articles suggest the flour already has amylase, and the water activates it, which produces the flavorful  sugars.


There is amylase in flour and water does activates it. There is a very important flour specification that tells us the enzyme activity: the falling number.

Not sure how much flavor the sugars deliver though.

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And then I read the yeast can only eat simple sugars, which are not in flour. Yeast is a single cell creature ( I think), and given that, I would doubt it has enough ability to make an enzyme, but I don't know.


Yeast can certainly make enzymes. The fructose the LAB metabolize to produce acetic acid for example, is primarily freed through the action of the enzyme invertase secreted by the yeast.

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So maybe enzymes are present in flour, but enzymes are typically destroyed at 118 F. So if the milling process gets that high, flour would have no enzyme activity.


That's 118F wet. Dry temps can reach 150F without denaturing the enzymes.

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Bacteria are multiple cell creatures, so i would think their by products of reproducing and digestion would release many more by products than a simple yeast, which I think is sort of a virus.


Last time I checked, bacteria were single cell organisms. Yeast are fungi.

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Can not really find many scholarly articles that actually prove by products.

I'm looking at a peer reviewed paper right now that identifies 28. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924224406001890 It's behind a paywall, but if you send me your email, I'll shoot you a copy.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2013, 05:56:55 PM »
There is amylase in flour and water does activates it. There is a very important flour specification that tells us the enzyme activity: the falling number.

Not sure how much flavor the sugars deliver though.

Yeast can certainly make enzymes. The fructose the LAB metabolize to produce acetic acid for example, is primarily freed through the action of the enzyme invertase secreted by the yeast.

That's 118F wet. Dry temps can reach 150F without denaturing the enzymes.
 

Last time I checked, bacteria were single cell organisms. Yeast are fungi.
 
I'm looking at a peer reviewed paper right now that identifies 28. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924224406001890 It's behind a paywall, but if you send me your email, I'll shoot you a copy.


Nice, you really have engaged in this.

Where did you buy your starter? If it does not create lactic acid, what is it creating?

I have wondered if they can package yeast, a one cell organism, why can't they do the same with bacteria that supports a sour dough? It's done with proboitics. I was thinking trying a really strong probiotic in dough, one bought refrigerated, a test will still have to be performed to see if it's a live.

Can you attached or cut and paste the meat of the peer reviewed paper?

appreciate!


Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2013, 06:25:03 PM »
Someone does sell potassium bromate. Should not be allowed IMO.

http://compare.ebay.com/like/281047603751?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

Online JD

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2013, 08:18:20 PM »
I was thinking trying a really strong probiotic in dough, one bought refrigerated, a test will still have to be performed to see if it's a live.



If you ever do this, can you post your results to this thread? http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26069.0.html

 :chef:
Josh

Online norma427

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2013, 08:52:10 PM »
Philipmason,

If you or anyone else is interested I played about with milk kefir to leaven pizza dough for awhile at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.0.html There was no sour taste in those crusts.  I wish now I would have been more experienced and knew how to control temperature the dough balls with milk kefir at that time.  Milk kefir seemed to slowly ferment pizza dough.  Milk kefir is supposed to be a probiotic.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2013, 09:05:37 PM »

If you ever do this, can you post your results to this thread? http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26069.0.html

 :chef:

Will do friend. Whole Foods has it. Will try in the next few weeks.

thanks

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2013, 09:08:06 PM »
Philipmason,

If you or anyone else is interested I played about with milk kefir to leaven pizza dough for awhile at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.0.html There was no sour taste in those crusts.  I wish now I would have been more experienced and knew how to control temperature the dough balls with milk kefir at that time.  Milk kefir seemed to slowly ferment pizza dough.  Milk kefir is supposed to be a probiotic.

Norma


I will study this,  I tried yogurt and sour cram and buttermilk. No success. Beer in place of water was actually really good.

Will post results

thanks

Online norma427

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2013, 10:42:47 PM »
I will study this,  I tried yogurt and sour cram and buttermilk. No success. Beer in place of water was actually really good.

Will post results

thanks


philipmason,

If you decide to try what I did with real milk kefir grains I will be watching for your results.  I wish I would have froze some of them, but think I threw some away when my fridge broke down.  Those experiments with milk kefir grains were interesting in leavening pizza doughs and I learned a lot with Peter's assistance.  If you want to see more posts where I used those milk keifr grains I used them to leaven bagels and pizza dough from the bagel recipe from Marc.  I posted about the Farimont Bagel Pizza at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12463.0.html and the bagels with milk kefir at Reply 50 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11832.msg117231.html#msg117231  I also leavened some Pizzarium doughs with the milk kefir.  I did leavened bread with milk kefir at Reply 361  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.msg116289.html#msg116289 

Since I have learned more about starters I do really like the Ischia starter. 

The one milk kefir dough ball went for a long time in the fridge and still was good to use to make a pizza.  It still makes me wonder how that dough lasted so long before it was made into a pizza.

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2013, 12:07:47 AM »
Where did you buy your starter?

I have three and all are from sourdo.com

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If it does not create lactic acid, what is it creating?

I'm sure it does; and acetic acid; and a bunch of other stuff. Just not in the quantities and ratios some of the more sour do - particularly not acetic acid.

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I have wondered if they can package yeast, a one cell organism, why can't they do the same with bacteria that supports a sour dough? It's done with proboitics. I was thinking trying a really strong probiotic in dough, one bought refrigerated, a test will still have to be performed to see if it's a live.

I'm sure they could. The problem is that a sourdough culture is not simply a random yeast and a random bacteria. It is a symbiotic pair unique to the culture. Also the yeast in a sourdough culture is not simply a strain of baker's yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae). In many cases it's not just a different species but an entirely different genus such as Candida milleri.

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Can you attached or cut and paste the meat of the peer reviewed paper?

No, too much context you'd need to get anything out of it.
Pizza is not bread.

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2013, 12:20:17 AM »
Not to be the party pooper but before you start experimenting with sourdough starters, yogurts, probiotics, milk kefir, beer, etc., you should be able to make a satisfactory pizza crust with commerical yeast.  If you aren't happy with your pizza crust with commercial yeast (ADY, IDY, CY), I'm not sure adding more ingredients will improve it.  Become familiar and proficient with the basics, then expand your knowledge.  If you are already past the basics, then by all means experiment away.  After 3 years of constant experimenting, I have just barely begun to understand the basics of making a good pizza crust that meets my standards and expectations. 

Chau
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 12:22:02 AM by Jackie Tran »