Author Topic: Gluten Strength  (Read 7222 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #80 on: September 14, 2013, 09:43:32 AM »
1 non bromated
10 bromated

 :-D

Which clearly deomnstrates the superiority of Neapolitan pizza.  ;D
Pizza is not bread.


Offline scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #81 on: September 14, 2013, 09:45:25 AM »
...or the varying interpretation of 1 and 10  ;D

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #82 on: September 14, 2013, 09:55:20 AM »
I've used mainly All Trumps bromated for NY style for nearly ten years. For most of that time I didn't even know what bromated meant, and I certainly didn't know it was basically the most important quality in a flour for NY style. All I knew for most of that time was that no other flour I've used is remotely comparable to All Trumps. That includes Bouncer, Dakotana, and something with "Harvest" in the name (which I think is common at Costco), as well as every consumer-level flour I've ever used. I still don't know if Dakotana or "Harvest Something" are bromated, but I assume they are not.

I've recently tried four unbromated flours for NY style: All Trumps unbromated, Power flour, Mondako, and Morbread. Out of these flours, only the Power flour has impressed me enough that I felt OK serving it to my guests. But it still can't touch All Trumps bromated. And some people don't consider All Trumps bromated ideal for NY style, due to its extremely high protein level.

Sorry, I just can't do the 1-10 thing right now. Not quite sure what you mean.


For me $41 plus shipping to get all trumps bromated, its only available in the east coast, I would assume to feed all those mom/pop pizzerias in the NE. I will order.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0043LJFVW/?tag=pizzamaking-20

 I will look for Power flour here.

So an improvement from bromated to non bromated makes a huge difference for you. Not serving to guests vs serving, that's huge.

Is it mostly structure/texture? No flavor difference?

What's the shelf live for Al Trumps bromated?

thank you Aimless Ryan

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #83 on: September 14, 2013, 09:58:10 AM »
I use bromated flours on a regular basis.  Not sure about a scale of 1-10 but bromated flours give the end crumb more structure relative to non bromated counterparts, which equates to a lighter more airy crumb.   You can create this effect with non bromated flours as well if you build the gluten strength properly.

Can you briefly describe, as not to bother you much "You can create this effect with non bromated flours as well if you build the gluten strength properly"

Does bromated flour add any flavor?

thank you

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #84 on: September 14, 2013, 10:02:24 AM »
I use Kyrol HG bromated flour for quite awhile now. Nice crumb, VERY stable, I like the texture a lot with NY style and higher hydration breads. RD depot carries 50# bags for about 18-20 bucks. I have the Con Agra Mill about 6 blocks from my house and I can do a dock pick-up for about 12 dollars and back home in 5-10 minutes :-D

jon


$28 plus shipping for Kygol

 http://shop.grainmill.coop/flour-and-grains/flour/high-gluten-flour/conagra-kyrol-flour-50lb.html

ever tried All Trumps bromated?

Whats your oil and hydration percentages?

Bromated flour add any flavor?

thanks

Offline scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #85 on: September 14, 2013, 10:02:39 AM »
Philip, I wouldn't recommend mail ordering flour.  The shipping charges are cost prohibitive, and, more importantly, you're never really certain that it's fresh, since you're dealing with an incredibly untraveled distribution channel.

Bring your tax id/company info to Restaurant Depot and sign up. They will have bromated flour. The national delineation for bromate/non bromated, from what I've been told, is the Rocky Mountains.  If you're East of the Rockies, you should be fine.

Craig, the Hunt brothers (Via 313, in Austin) are using bromated flour for their Detroit pies, right? Bromated flour has to be available in Texas.

Offline scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #86 on: September 14, 2013, 10:07:18 AM »
Bromate only affects volume, not flavor.  Although, one might argue that oven spring impacts flavor by making it less chewy and causing it to break down in your mouth a bit faster.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2013, 10:07:36 AM »
1 non bromated
10 bromated

 :-D

Seriously, though, on a scale of 1 to 10, if, say, you're able to make pizza that you'd rate at 8 out 10 with non bromated flour, if you used bromated flour, it would bump it to 9 out of 10. That, to me, is the level of improvement that bromate gives you.

It's not like the improvement you see from a correct oven setup, but it helps.

Nice reply, thats about a 15% improvement using  bromated , and yes baking temp and time.

As I have said, I get to about 650F, on a stone, but the top is always under cooked. 5 to 6 minute bake time. Must correct that top under cooked.

Any suggestions?

Does bromaoted flour add any flavor?

thanks!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #88 on: September 14, 2013, 10:16:30 AM »
Craig, the Hunt brothers (Via 313, in Austin) are using bromated flour for their Detroit pies, right? Bromated flour has to be available in Texas.

I don't know, but I'd be shocked if it isn't available.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2013, 10:19:08 AM »
Which clearly deomnstrates the superiority of Neapolitan pizza.  ;D

 Neapolitan takes temperatures of about 800 F, I just cant get there.

I have always felt  Neapolitan origination was not by choice, but forced upon due to simply the lack of ingredients, and the low income of the time/area, and they happened to high high temp ovens.

Neapolitan has no oil (probably cost prohibited or scarce at the time of origination), low protein flour (cheaper), no sugar (cost), low TF (cheaper), and finely milled flour ( dont know the history of this in that area/time). Not sure about cold/warm ferment at at time/area, and culture used.

But all this made for a great crust.

Lot of it by chance IMO.

What temperature/time to you bake your  Neapolitan?

Do you do NY?

thanks


Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2013, 10:20:12 AM »
I don't know, but I'd be shocked if it isn't available.

I will join Restaurant Depot next Friday, and let all know.

thanks

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2013, 10:20:54 AM »
Can you briefly describe, as not to bother you much "You can create this effect with non bromated flours as well if you build the gluten strength properly"

Does bromated flour add any flavor?

thank you

You can make light and airy crumb structure and texture using non bromated flours with proper technique.  Seriously speaking, there isn't enough time nor energy to teach a person to do that over a few Internet sessions.  It requires a lot of reading, practice, patience, soul searching, perhaps soul selling...just Kidding.  No bromates do not add flavor as far as I can taste.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2013, 10:21:13 AM »
Philip, I wouldn't recommend mail ordering flour.  The shipping charges are cost prohibitive, and, more importantly, you're never really certain that it's fresh, since you're dealing with an incredibly untraveled distribution channel.

Bring your tax id/company info to Restaurant Depot and sign up. They will have bromated flour. The national delineation for bromate/non bromated, from what I've been told, is the Rocky Mountains.  If you're East of the Rockies, you should be fine.

Craig, the Hunt brothers (Via 313, in Austin) are using bromated flour for their Detroit pies, right? Bromated flour has to be available in Texas.

Restaurant Depot, yes, will do, no mail order

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2013, 10:27:34 AM »
Bromate only affects volume, not flavor.  Although, one might argue that oven spring impacts flavor by making it less chewy and causing it to break down in your mouth a bit faster.

Your mouth has an enzyme that initiates carb breakdown into simple sugars, so good point, if it is done faster, then maybe it does has a flavor impact due to more simple sugars released  in the mouth/taste bud area.

That's what I understand is part of people's carb graving, along with the spike in insulin that carbs create.

thanks

Offline scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2013, 10:28:45 AM »
As I have said, I get to about 650F, on a stone, but the top is always under cooked. 5 to 6 minute bake time. Must correct that top under cooked.

Any suggestions?

Does bromaoted flour add any flavor?

It's great that your oven can hit 650.  That gives you a wider selection of stones to work with.  Could you tell us about your existing stone? Brand? Thickness? You're not using a screen, right?

The way to match the top bake to a fast bottom bake is to use the broiler during the bake.  If you don't have a broiler in the main compartment, then that complicates things, but isn't insurmountable.

I feel like we're going in circles with the whole flavor thing :)  A while back we talked about flavor, and then, more recently, you started this thread with a formula containing 1.55 salt. You can't talk about flavor issues and use 1.55% salt  ;D Let's try this one more time.

Maximizing crust flavor for NY style

2% salt
3% vegetable oil
Malted flour (preferably bromated, such as Full Strength or an All Trumps/all purpose blend)
Minimum of 3 days cold fermentation with appropriate quantity of yeast (dough should just about double in the fridge and then triple by baking)
Broiler during the bake for good top browning
Temperature necessary for 5 minute bake, top and bottom. If you want something crisper and more golden brown, go with a lower temp for a 6 or 7 minute bake

More extreme steps (shouldn't be necessary)

More than 5 days cold ferment
2.5% salt
Malted barley
Dark beer
Honey
Molasses

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2013, 10:29:30 AM »
You can make light and airy crumb structure and texture using non bromated flours with proper technique.  Seriously speaking, there isn't enough time nor energy to teach a person to do that over a few Internet sessions.  It requires a lot of reading, practice, patience, soul searching, perhaps soul selling...just Kidding.  No bromates do not add flavor as far as I can taste.

Still can't believe that picture at the thread beginning of your stretched dough, unbelievable!!!!

Just maybe one or two tips???

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #96 on: September 14, 2013, 10:47:35 AM »
It's great that your oven can hit 650.  That gives you a wider selection of stones to work with.  Could you tell us about your existing stone? Brand? Thickness? You're not using a screen, right?

The way to match the top bake to a fast bottom bake is to use the broiler during the bake.  If you don't have a broiler in the main compartment, then that complicates things, but isn't insurmountable.

I feel like we're going in circles with the whole flavor thing :)  A while back we talked about flavor, and then, more recently, you started this thread with a formula containing 1.55 salt. You can't talk about flavor issues and use 1.55% salt  ;D Let's try this one more time.

Maximizing crust flavor for NY style

2% salt
3% vegetable oil
Malted flour (preferably bromated, such as Full Strength or an All Trumps/all purpose blend)
Minimum of 3 days cold fermentation with appropriate quantity of yeast (dough should just about double in the fridge and then triple by baking)
Broiler during the bake for good top browning
Temperature necessary for 5 minute bake, top and bottom. If you want something crisper and more golden brown, go with a lower temp for a 6 or 7 minute bake

More extreme steps (shouldn't be necessary)

More than 5 days cold ferment
2.5% salt
Malted barley
Dark beer
Honey
Molasses

Appears some circles have been made, my fault.

I use a thin stone, I think 3/8" thick. I dont have broiler control, i modified the t-stat on a cheap counter top bake oven to get the 650 F. I probably will modify the broiler coil for manual or auto control. The bottom and top element both come on at the same time, so it's like a preheat condition.

My idea is to build a simple controller, relays, and time delay relays, that will turn the broiler element on the last 2 to 1 minute of a set bake time, which is 5:30 to 6 minutes for me now. I would make the broiler on at end adjustable and play with it.

Glad you mentioned 2% salt, i tried it then went back to 1.5% based on a comment by Pete-zza I found, stating 2% max for him for salt, because he felt too salty of a taste, and I don't like getting to a max value, so i bumped it down to 1.55% salt.

However, the 2% was NOT salty at all

I will return to 2% salt. 3% was definitively salty.

Got all covered in your "Maximizing crust flavor for NY style" except the 3 day ferment, after several attempts, we found no difference in a 24 referent. I know it's common knowledge here, so it has to be us, not you.

Malted barley, honey, Molasses instead of sugar?

You never mentioned sugar? You recommend it??

thanks

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2013, 10:48:35 AM »
Still can't believe that picture at the thread beginning of your stretched dough, unbelievable!!!!

Just maybe one or two tips???

If you like that dough I posted, Jeff Varasano's method is a good place to start.  Read my Vietnamese baguette thread, particularly towards the end, where Mnjesse posted a dough making method.  Note the similarities between these techniques.  Practice, practice, practice.  Lots of patience.  Most of the info you read on here is correct, some of it is misinformation so do test everything you can and decide for yourself what works for you.  Everyone's idea of perfection will vary based on their own experience.   Realize the advice you get is based on their experience and standards, not yours.  Your standards will change with your pizza making and eating experience.   Post pics and ask questions.  Be prepared to gain some weight.  Every bake, every pizza you eat anywhere, every conversation about pizza holds clues, truths waiting to be discovered.  Keep very good notes.  Keep friends whose pizza and work you admire and try to emulate them while you learn. 

One other thing.  If you are serious about learning how to make pizza, buy a blackstone oven.  It will allow you to bake pizza often at a relatively low cost.  I do not recommend doing home oven hacks.  It is dangerous and causes undue wear and tear on your home oven.  A blackstone will allow you to take it outdoors or into your well ventilated garage.   

Chau
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 11:03:23 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #98 on: September 14, 2013, 11:16:12 AM »
If you like that dough I posted, Jeff Varasano's method is a good place to start.  Read my Vietnamese baguette thread, particularly towards the end, where Mnjesse posted a dough making method.  Note the similarities between these techniques.  Practice, practice, practice.  Lots of patience.  Most of the info you read on here is correct, some of it is misinformation so do test everything you can and decide for yourself what works for you.  Everyone's idea of perfection will vary based on their own experience.   Realize the advice you get is based on their experience and standards, not yours.  Your standards will change with your pizza making and eating experience.   Post pics and ask questions.  Be prepared to gain some weight.  Every bake, every pizza you eat anywhere, every conversation about pizza holds clues, truths waiting to be discovered.  Keep very good notes.  Keep friends whose pizza and work you admire and try to emulate them while you learn. 

One other thing.  If you are serious about learning how to make pizza, buy a blackstone oven.  It will allow you to bake pizza often at a relatively low cost.  I do not recommend doing home oven hacks.  It is dangerous and causes undue wear and tear on your home oven.  A blackstone will allow you to take it outdoors or into your well ventilated garage.   

Chau


I have studied , Jeff Varasano's method. He uses no oil/sugar. I use some of his methods,not all. I will do his 100% to see.

A condensed version:

http://www.insearchoftheperfectpie.com/2009/03/01/the-pizzetta-stone-translating-jeff-varasanos-technique/

"Read my Vietnamese baguette thread, particularly towards the end, where Mnjesse posted a dough making method."

will do!

My hacked oven is outdoors under a covered patio. You are correct, could be dangerous. Been doing complex electrical controls for 30 years now, both design and field. I have little advantage than most, but well taken, always a degree of danger.

I will look at Blackstone.

thanks

Offline scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #99 on: September 14, 2013, 11:24:48 AM »
I use a thin stone, I think 3/8" thick. I dont have broiler control, i modified the t-stat on a cheap counter top bake oven to get the 650 F. I probably will modify the broiler coil for manual or auto control. The bottom and top element both come on at the same time, so it's like a preheat condition.

My idea is to build a simple controller, relays, and time delay relays, that will turn the broiler element on the last 2 to 1 minute of a set bake time, which is 5:30 to 6 minutes for me now. I would make the broiler on at end adjustable and play with it.

Glad you mentioned 2% salt, i tried it then went back to 1.5% based on a comment by Pete-zza I found, stating 2% max for him for salt, because he felt too salty of a taste, and I don't like getting to a max value, so i bumped it down to 1.55% salt.

However, the 2% was NOT salty at all

I will return to 2% salt. 3% was definitively salty.

Got all covered in your "Maximizing crust flavor for NY style" except the 3 day ferment, after several attempts, we found no difference in a 24 referent. I know it's common knowledge here, so it has to be us, not you.

Malted barley, honey, Molasses instead of sugar?

You never mentioned sugar? You recommend it??

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.  Lose the countertop. It most likely doesn't have the necessary wattage to give you a fast even bake, regardless of how much modifying you do.  A huge part of flavor is browning/charring- and you won't get that with a hacked countertop oven.

You've got a real oven, right?  What temp does it go to and is the broiler in the main compartment or a separate drawer?

You're overthinking the extended ferment  ;D  Months ago, I told you to make a 6 hour dough and  5 day dough (using the right amount of yeast for doubling) and to taste the crusts side by side.  Time them so they are ready to bake at the same time.  Smell each dough before baking- you'll be able to smell the stark difference.

This isn't theoretical.  Longer fermentation allows the protease to break down the proteins in the flour into amino acids.  Amino acids are flavor enhancers- umami. One 6 hour dough and one 5 day dough. Just do it.

The fermentation test will be meaningless, though, if you can't work out a proper oven setup.

A blackstone is a really great investment, but, imo, it's more for those seeking Neapolitan bake times.  If you want to eventually make NP pizza, go for it, but, for your current flavorful NY quest, a home oven that hits 550 with the right hearth will achieve it.


 

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